The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread - Page 67 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1981 of 2031 Old 03-24-2020, 11:59 PM
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I bought a B&C 18tbw100 and I will go with the VBSS design (31hz version)

I used to have a pb13 ultra.

I assume the VBSS won't go as deep as the pb13 but will have more punch in the mid area.

Do you think that the VBSS will sound more impressive overall than the pb13?
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post #1982 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBond07 View Post
I bought a B&C 18tbw100 and I will go with the VBSS design (31hz version)

I used to have a pb13 ultra.

I assume the VBSS won't go as deep as the pb13 but will have more punch in the mid area.

Do you think that the VBSS will sound more impressive overall than the pb13?

I have the PB12-NSD, for most, if not all movies, I would not miss the SVS.

I now ran mine together and it is a very good combo. I reckon yours would be even better
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post #1983 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 01:46 AM
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When you say "for most" it sounds like pb12nsd may be better in some area?

Last edited by JBond07; 03-25-2020 at 03:08 AM.
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post #1984 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBond07 View Post
I bought a B&C 18tbw100 and I will go with the VBSS design (31hz version)

I used to have a pb13 ultra.

I assume the VBSS won't go as deep as the pb13 but will have more punch in the mid area.

Do you think that the VBSS will sound more impressive overall than the pb13?
According to PE, the B&C 18tbw100 has twice the xmax than the PA460, which is the driver the vbss was designed around. I believe you benefit from a lower tune, say 20Hz and be very happy. I've never owned a PB13 Ultra, or any other SVS sub for that matter, so I can't speak on it. However, I have 7 vbss and I love them

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post #1985 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 05:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBond07 View Post
I bought a B&C 18tbw100 and I will go with the VBSS design (31hz version)

I used to have a pb13 ultra.

I assume the VBSS won't go as deep as the pb13 but will have more punch in the mid area.

Do you think that the VBSS will sound more impressive overall than the pb13?

Have you modeled the tbw in the VBSS enclosure? You may end up with very high port velocity. A marty cube might be a better match.

Chris


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post #1986 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 05:28 AM
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I did simulate a close box: same volume but higher tunning: 32Hz.

It was ok as far as I remember.
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post #1987 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 05:58 AM
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Those movies with a lot of content in the teens, but from my understanding, there is not much, someone said, around less than 5-10 percent has those content. Most of the action, explosion, car crash, gun shots, etc is from 30hz onwards

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When you say "for most" it sounds like pb12nsd may be better in some area?
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post #1988 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 09:22 AM
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I've been looking at this thread, and others, struggling to decide on a significant upgrade over my dual PB2000 setup. I already own a Crown XLS 1002, which could likely run dual VBSS's with a PA460. I've also contemplated dual PE UM18s or MartyCubes w/ UM18s as well, but the cost is significantly more and require an additional amp. I'm not very handy, nor have a lot of tools at my disposal.

Any thoughts on what would be the best value and give me a significant upgrade? I've also given some thought of just adding a sealed PE UM18 to the mix as a third sub, but didn't read good things about mixing ported and sealed, or even running an odd number of subs. Room is 19x17x9 with an open stairwell leading downstairs.
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^^^^Again, it seems your choices are limited given your budget and the fact that you're not "handy"

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post #1990 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 10:08 AM
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Are you keeping the dual PB2000 after adding the new subwoofer?

What are you targeting to improve? Chest slamp ? Lower bass response in the teens? Budget ? is DIY an option?

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo900t View Post
I've been looking at this thread, and others, struggling to decide on a significant upgrade over my dual PB2000 setup. I already own a Crown XLS 1002, which could likely run dual VBSS's with a PA460. I've also contemplated dual PE UM18s or MartyCubes w/ UM18s as well, but the cost is significantly more and require an additional amp. I'm not very handy, nor have a lot of tools at my disposal.

Any thoughts on what would be the best value and give me a significant upgrade? I've also given some thought of just adding a sealed PE UM18 to the mix as a third sub, but didn't read good things about mixing ported and sealed, or even running an odd number of subs. Room is 19x17x9 with an open stairwell leading downstairs.
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post #1991 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
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Are you keeping the dual PB2000 after adding the new subwoofer?

What are you targeting to improve? Chest slamp ? Lower bass response in the teens? Budget ? is DIY an option?
I would keep the PB2000s if it made sense, and better bass low end response for primarily movies and games is what I'm after. Partially, I'm looking to best make use of the Crown amp i have sitting around, if it makes sense to augment my current system with an additional sub (like the sealed PE kit), or to dump them and build 2 new ones. DIY is an option, but I'd prefer to have a kit, as I don't have the tools to be cutting anything. I was initially leaning towards MartyCubes, but the $300 shipping is turning me off.

Budget is around $1500. If i built 2 new subs, I'd like to be able to sell the PBs and have a minimal cost out of pocket.
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post #1992 of 2031 Old 03-25-2020, 10:30 AM
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Checkout the Behringer B1200 for Chest slam, it should work well with your Pb2000

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...-response.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo900t View Post
I would keep the PB2000s if it made sense, and better bass low end response for primarily movies and games is what I'm after. Partially, I'm looking to best make use of the Crown amp i have sitting around, if it makes sense to augment my current system with an additional sub (like the sealed PE kit), or to dump them and build 2 new ones. DIY is an option, but I'd prefer to have a kit, as I don't have the tools to be cutting anything. I was initially leaning towards MartyCubes, but the $300 shipping is turning me off.

Budget is around $1500. If i built 2 new subs, I'd like to be able to sell the PBs and have a minimal cost out of pocket.
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post #1993 of 2031 Old 03-26-2020, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBond07 View Post
I bought a B&C 18tbw100 and I will go with the VBSS design (31hz version)

I used to have a pb13 ultra.

I assume the VBSS won't go as deep as the pb13 but will have more punch in the mid area.

Do you think that the VBSS will sound more impressive overall than the pb13?
The name "VBSS" is largely based off the cost effective driver - the Dayton PA460. I've built 3 of them, and they're the best bang for buck I'm aware of. That said, a single 31 Hz PA460 would not outperform a PB13. You'd miss out on a lot of LFE that the PB13 can produce below 25 Hz.

BUT ... you have a B&C driver which is a significant upgrade to the PA460. A higher volume enclosure with a large 15Hz port, and that will keep up with the PB13 on the low end while giving a lot more "slam" in the 80-120 Hz region.



Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo900t View Post
I would keep the PB2000s if it made sense, and better bass low end response for primarily movies and games is what I'm after. Partially, I'm looking to best make use of the Crown amp i have sitting around, if it makes sense to augment my current system with an additional sub (like the sealed PE kit), or to dump them and build 2 new ones. DIY is an option, but I'd prefer to have a kit, as I don't have the tools to be cutting anything. I was initially leaning towards MartyCubes, but the $300 shipping is turning me off.

Budget is around $1500. If i built 2 new subs, I'd like to be able to sell the PBs and have a minimal cost out of pocket.
If you're not able to build the enclosure, the cost savings of DIY isn't as attractive. The $1,500 budget is plenty, but the Crown Amp is the limitation. You wouldn't be able to drive a UM18-22, B&C, or LaVoce with anything less that 1,000W per channel. That limits you to two PA460's and 2 Martycube's for $300 each - that's $800 +tax, and you'll get a decent boost below 20Hz while getting quadruple the output above 50Hz. The alternative would be to buy a couple SVS SB12's for the same $800 and get 80% of the bang for your buck.
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post #1994 of 2031 Old 03-26-2020, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryJeremy View Post
If you're not able to build the enclosure, the cost savings of DIY isn't as attractive. The $1,500 budget is plenty, but the Crown Amp is the limitation. You wouldn't be able to drive a UM18-22, B&C, or LaVoce with anything less that 1,000W per channel. That limits you to two PA460's and 2 Martycube's for $300 each - that's $800 +tax, and you'll get a decent boost below 20Hz while getting quadruple the output above 50Hz. The alternative would be to buy a couple SVS SB12's for the same $800 and get 80% of the bang for your buck.
Thanks for the advice! I'm assuming that 1 Crown XLS 1002 would be able to drive 1 UM18-22 since it can do 1100 watts bridged @ 4 OhM. I don't know if adding a sealed UM to my system would make a significant impact anyway. I may end up just waiting until I can go the full path of building a ported enclosure with 2 amps to each run their own UM18-22 and sell the PB2000s.
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Originally Posted by AngryJeremy View Post
If you're not able to build the enclosure, the cost savings of DIY isn't as attractive. The $1,500 budget is plenty, but the Crown Amp is the limitation. You wouldn't be able to drive a UM18-22, B&C, or LaVoce with anything less that 1,000W per channel. That limits you to two PA460's and 2 Martycube's for $300 each - that's $800 +tax, and you'll get a decent boost below 20Hz while getting quadruple the output above 50Hz. The alternative would be to buy a couple SVS SB12's for the same $800 and get 80% of the bang for your buck.
What ? Two Martycubes with PA460s for $300 each - that's $800 plus tax ?
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And total cost only around $600
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There was some talk about using the PA380 in a cabinet half the size back on page 2. Did anyone ever build one of those?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by diablo900t View Post
Thanks for the advice! I'm assuming that 1 Crown XLS 1002 would be able to drive 1 UM18-22 since it can do 1100 watts bridged @ 4 OhM. I don't know if adding a sealed UM to my system would make a significant impact anyway. I may end up just waiting until I can go the full path of building a ported enclosure with 2 amps to each run their own UM18-22 and sell the PB2000s.
The UM18 can handle 1,000 watts RMS and 2,000 W peak. The XLS1002 could probably drive it in a large ported cabinet, but it may not be enough for a small sealed cabinet. On it's own, I'm not sure if a single UM18 would outperform dual PB2000. But if you're adding it to those 2, I'm sure that system would sound incredible.

Disclaimer: I prioritize music which is why I built 3 PA460's. I've run plenty of simulations with the UM18, but haven't heard one.

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What ? Two Martycubes with PA460s for $300 each - that's $800 plus tax ?
Each driver is $100 and each pre-fab martycube cabinet is $300
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Each driver is $100 and each pre-fab martycube cabinet is $300
Whew. Ok. Good. I thought somebody had changed mathematics while I wasn't looking 🤭
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Can someone double-check this for me? Instead of 23.5 wide x 20.5" deep x 31.5" tall, can I do 20" wide x 24" deep x 31.5" tall? How about for the slot port length for the 15hz tune? How long will the port need to be? Also, are stuffing necessary?
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post #2002 of 2031 Old 03-31-2020, 07:08 AM
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Quote:
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Can someone double-check this for me? Instead of 23.5 wide x 20.5" deep x 31.5" tall, can I do 20" wide x 24" deep x 31.5" tall? How about for the slot port length for the 15hz tune? How long will the port need to be? Also, are stuffing necessary?
With a port area of 18.5" wide x 1.25" tall, it would need to be 38.25" long to be a 15 Hz tune. Cover the walls in 1"-2" foam or insulation.

More of an opinion here, but 20" wide is too narrow. The inside width would be 18.5", which only leaves about 1" driver clearance to the side walls. I wouldn't recommend going any lower than 22" width, but that will change your port area and resulting port length too

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The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryJeremy View Post
With a port area of 18.5" wide x 1.25" tall, it would need to be 38.25" long to be a 15 Hz tune. Cover the walls in 1"-2" foam or insulation.

More of an opinion here, but 20" wide is too narrow. The inside width would be 18.5", which only leaves about 1" driver clearance to the side walls. I wouldn't recommend going any lower than 22" width, but that will change your port area and resulting port length too

Nah, a 20” wide box is fine.

Here’s a 20” wide box with a larger-diameter 18” with an enormous motor. It is also mounted flush.


Chris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryJeremy View Post
With a port area of 18.5" wide x 1.25" tall, it would need to be 38.25" long to be a 15 Hz tune. Cover the walls in 1"-2" foam or insulation.



More of an opinion here, but 20" wide is too narrow. The inside width would be 18.5", which only leaves about 1" driver clearance to the side walls. I wouldn't recommend going any lower than 22" width, but that will change your port area and resulting port length too
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Could someone explain/show what happens when we stuff a port on these (got graphs with/without)? What do you stuff them with?

I have 4 slim slot port vbss Pa460's tuned to 20hz and 1 mini Marty um18 tuned to 17hz.

If I stuffed ports could the vbbs help boost my low end a bit...? I got plenty of mid/upper bass I can afford to give up if need be...


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Have you looked at the DIYSG Kuda M8-18k flat-pack kit for 18" subwoofers ? It a 8cu.ft net ported with 3, 4" Precision Ports so you can easily change the tuning hz of the ports if you want to, and it's less expensive with shipping than some other sub flat-packs. Your B&C 18TBW100 should work good in that enclosure.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Could someone explain/show what happens when we stuff a port on these (got graphs with/without)? What do you stuff them with?

I have 4 slim slot port vbss Pa460's tuned to 20hz and 1 mini Marty um18 tuned to 17hz.

If I stuffed ports could the vbbs help boost my low end a bit...? I got plenty of mid/upper bass I can afford to give up if need be...


Thanks

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Graphs are in the first post of this thread. You will need to change settings to 15hz tune when running with stuffed port.

Chris
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post #2008 of 2031 Old 04-01-2020, 06:55 AM
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Graphs are in the first post of this thread. You will need to change settings to 15hz tune when running with stuffed port.

Chris

If I'm reading this right, it looks like if I stuffed one of the ports in my 20hz build I would gain about 6db at 15hz...is that right?

Stuffing one of my ports would then add a marginal increase in the total cab size now too, right?
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Epson 5040, 150" 16:9 1.1gain, Source: HTPC w/madVR, Audio: Onkyo RZ 830 avr, 5.1.4 Atmos setup. 5 speaker Energy C Series: L/R C300's, C C-C100, SR/SL C50's, 4 in-ceiling Micca R-8c. Subwoofers: 1 MiniMarty um18 w/NX3000D. 4 diy Slim VBSS 18" Subs w/NX3000D.
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post #2009 of 2031 Old 04-01-2020, 06:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
If I'm reading this right, it looks like if I stuffed one of the ports in my 20hz build I would gain about 6db at 15hz...is that right?

Stuffing one of my ports would then add a marginal increase in the total cab size now too, right?

That looks like the indication. I’m not sure where the driver runs out of excursion for max output though.

The cabinet-volume-with-a-plugged-port discussion is an interesting one. I haven’t seen it proven conclusively either way. You can split the difference and add in half the port volume. Thats a small enough port not to make a big change anyway.

Chris
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post #2010 of 2031 Old 04-01-2020, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
Could someone explain/show what happens when we stuff a port on these (got graphs with/without)? What do you stuff them with?

I have 4 slim slot port vbss Pa460's tuned to 20hz and 1 mini Marty um18 tuned to 17hz.

If I stuffed ports could the vbbs help boost my low end a bit...? I got plenty of mid/upper bass I can afford to give up if need be...


Thanks

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Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
Graphs are in the first post of this thread. You will need to change settings to 15hz tune when running with stuffed port.

Chris
Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidinGA View Post
If I'm reading this right, it looks like if I stuffed one of the ports in my 20hz build I would gain about 6db at 15hz...is that right?

Stuffing one of my ports would then add a marginal increase in the total cab size now too, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by a77cj7 View Post
That looks like the indication. I’m not sure where the driver runs out of excursion for max output though.

The cabinet-volume-with-a-plugged-port discussion is an interesting one. I haven’t seen it proven conclusively either way. You can split the difference and add in half the port volume. Thats a small enough port not to make a big change anyway.

Chris
More discussion, charts, and arguments here: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...-blocking.html

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