The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread - Page 78 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2311 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 06:48 PM
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getting the box cut tomorrow and i would like to confirm the dimensions. subs are still in transit

i believe i found the dimensions / specs on the dayton audio site for the PA460

16.75" opening

18.25" for a flush mount baffle


Are these correct?


Thanks again!
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post #2312 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
Folks - thanks for all the contribution on this thread. It is quite long and I am frankly getting a bit lost on where to start. When I start reading I encounter the graphs and I have no clue how to interpret them. Can someone help me and point me to to where I should start reading? I had earlier posted my questions as below.

My current set up is three JBL studio 590s for the front and two JBL studio 580s for surrounds and two MLT 2s for my rear surrounds. I have a Klipsch R112sw subwoofer. My receiver is a Denon ,4400h. The Klipsch is the weakest link in the chain. However I don't have an option of replacing that with a 15 inch sub in the front because of size constraints behind my AT wall. So this post is more about a second sub I am thinking of to put in the back of the room. If I did end up replacing the Klipsch it will most likely need to be for a 10 inch sub. The ratio between video and music usage is 75-25.

The larger space behind my seating in the room which is about 24-30 inches depending on where you measure (curved seating configuration). The dimensions of the room are 13'8" from AT screen to back wall and 12'6" width. I have a couple of questions.

1. Do I even need a second sub given the room dimensions?
2. If I did need a second sub would I need one or two? I already have one sub in the front. Would adding another two for a small room be an overkill?
3. How much do these run from a cost perspective?
Bumping this since I got no response.

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post #2313 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 07:23 PM
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Bumping this since I got no response.

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my guess is wrong thread. this is for the VBSS design / builds. might have better luck in the main DIY subwoofer thread

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post #2314 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SRTpusher View Post
my guess is wrong thread. this is for the VBSS design / builds. might have better luck in the main DIY subwoofer thread
My questions are for vbss.

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post #2315 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
Bumping this since I got no response.

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The first post gives the information you need to build a "standard" VBSS as well as the DSP file for the Behringer amp. VBSS's were really intended to be used in pairs, so I'd build two (or a dual driver box).
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post #2316 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
The first post gives the information you need to build a "standard" VBSS as well as the DSP file for the Behringer amp. VBSS's were really intended to be used in pairs, so I'd build two (or a dual driver box).
How do I interpret the graphs?

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post #2317 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 07:56 PM
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Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
How do I interpret the graphs?

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The blue line is for the 15Hz tune, the red line is the 20Hz tune (which is the "standard" tune), and the purple line is the 31Hz tune. The y axis is SPL and the x axis is the frequency.



Is that what you were looking for?
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post #2318 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 08:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
The blue line is for the 15Hz tune, the red line is the 20Hz tune (which is the "standard" tune), and the purple line is the 31Hz tune. The y axis is SPL and the x axis is the frequency.



Is that what you were looking for?
I get the lines on the graph but trying to understand what they mean. Is there anywhere I could read up more on this?

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post #2319 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
I get the lines on the graph but trying to understand what they mean. Is there anywhere I could read up more on this?



What else are you trying to figure out about these? All of the info you need is in the first post.


The VBSS is designed to be an inexpensive, cost-effective subwoofer. Because of their relatively cheap cost to buy & build, they are very popular around here for a lot of different applications. The original design was created because it makes the best use out of a full 4x8 sheet of material, while maximizing the cabinet size and minimizing the scrap.



If this is something you are considering for your theater you were asking about in your thread, then yes, this would be a good choice for you. You would need to choose which tuning option you want, and then grab a BehingerNX amp and download the DSP settings. Sure, you could buy other subwoofers and build custom cabinets that'll really get into the ULF range, and maybe that's what you want. It's your choice.
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post #2320 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Craig S King View Post
What else are you trying to figure out about these? All of the info you need is in the first post.


The VBSS is designed to be an inexpensive, cost-effective subwoofer. Because of their relatively cheap cost to buy & build, they are very popular around here for a lot of different applications. The original design was created because it makes the best use out of a full 4x8 sheet of material, while maximizing the cabinet size and minimizing the scrap.



If this is something you are considering for your theater you were asking about in your thread, then yes, this would be a good choice for you. You would need to choose which tuning option you want, and then grab a BehingerNX amp and download the DSP settings. Sure, you could buy other subwoofers and build custom cabinets that'll really get into the ULF range, and maybe that's what you want. It's your choice.
I guess I am trying to understand how to interpret the graph. Also whether I need to do a similar measurement once I build one.

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In the first post, there are only 2 graphs. The graph with the white background is the measured OUTDOOR frequency response of the 3 different VBSS configurations. The graph with the black background and green lines is the simulated or modeled results of the 3 different VBSS configurations based on using the T/S parameters supplied for the PA460. As Mocs said, the y-axis is SPL, which in other words is volume. The x-axis is frequency range. You use the graph to determine how the subwoofer will respond in different cabinets with different tuning and power levels, etc. In the case of the VBSS, it only uses the PA460 driver, so the graphs are an overlay of how each of the 3 tuning options respond at the same power levels. So if you purchase a BehringerNX1000 amp and build a VBSS as shown in the first post, you can expect roughly the frequency response shown in the graphs. As the green line rises, that means the bass is getting louder. That also means that the tone of the bass is getting higher.
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post #2322 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 08:48 PM
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In the first post, there are only 2 graphs. The graph with the white background is the measured OUTDOOR frequency response of the 3 different VBSS configurations. The graph with the black background and green lines is the simulated or modeled results of the 3 different VBSS configurations based on using the T/S parameters supplied for the PA460. As Mocs said, the y-axis is SPL, which in other words is volume. The x-axis is frequency range. You use the graph to determine how the subwoofer will respond in different cabinets with different tuning and power levels, etc. In the case of the VBSS, it only uses the PA460 driver, so the graphs are an overlay of how each of the 3 tuning options respond at the same power levels. So if you purchase a BehringerNX1000 amp and build a VBSS as shown in the first post, you can expect roughly the frequency response shown in the graphs. As the green line rises, that means the bass is getting louder. That also means that the tone of the bass is getting higher.
Yes I saw that but the graph shown is not relatively flat. From what I know i thought you need a fairly even curve but this seems to be widely fluctuating. So I am just trying to understand it in context.

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Yes I saw that but the graph shown is not relatively flat. From what I know i thought you need a fairly even curve but this seems to be widely fluctuating. So I am just trying to understand it in context.

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The graph in the first post is extremely flat down to the tuning frequencies. For instance, the 20hz tune (red line) is within 5db all the way to 20hz. And this doesn't account for any room gain you would experience in room. So I'm not sure what you are referring to.

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post #2324 of 2577 Old 06-02-2020, 09:40 PM
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The graph in the first post is extremely flat down to the tuning frequencies. For instance, the 20hz tune (red line) is within 5db all the way to 20hz. And this doesn't account for any room gain you would experience in room. So I'm not sure what you are referring to.

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It's a bit confusing. What is a 2pi response? And when you say 20hz tune what are you referring to? From what I read up you circle through frequencies at different levels - low, mid, high and see how flat the curve is within a plus or minus db factor.

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The version that you linked is the version I used to create the cut list . I also confirmed with David to make sure its the final version. Thx for posting the bracing.

your version and the one that 4fit linked are different version are different

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It's a bit confusing. What is a 2pi response? And when you say 20hz tune what are you referring to? From what I read up you circle through frequencies at different levels - low, mid, high and see how flat the curve is within a plus or minus db factor.

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https://trueaudio.com/st_spcs1.htm

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-s...frequency.html

For what it's worth, there are numerous members who are getting in room responses down into the teens with the VBSS subs. That is something that your current Klipsch sub can not come remotely close to doing.

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post #2327 of 2577 Old 06-03-2020, 04:17 AM
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Is there a video that shows the actual assembly and how to make the connections?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
It's a bit confusing. What is a 2pi response? And when you say 20hz tune what are you referring to? From what I read up you circle through frequencies at different levels - low, mid, high and see how flat the curve is within a plus or minus db factor.

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Ported subs are "tuned" to a certain frequency that maximizes output around that frequency and then SPL drops off quickly below that. Sealed subs have a long slow taper, so they generally go lower, but have significantly less SPL. Ported subs maximize output and are the choice for most people for HT use, especially if you are just going to have one or two of them.



The "standard" VBSS tune is 20Hz but there are also tunes for 15Hz and for 31Hz. Since you would be using these as your main subwoofers I would think you would want either the 20Hz tune or the 15Hz tune. The 20Hz tune has slightly more output except everywhere except below 20Hz. If you build the VBSS with the Precision Ports (rather then the slot port) - you are tuned for 20Hz with both ports open and 15Hz with one port (or with one of the two plugged).

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post #2329 of 2577 Old 06-03-2020, 04:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
Ported subs are "tuned" to a certain frequency that maximizes output around that frequency and then SPL drops off quickly below that. Sealed subs have a long slow taper, so they generally go lower, but have significantly less SPL. Ported subs maximize output and are the choice for most people for HT use, especially if you are just going to have one or two of them.



The "standard" VBSS tune is 20Hz but there are also tunes for 15Hz and for 31Hz. Since you would be using these as your main subwoofers I would think you would want either the 20Hz tune or the 15Hz tune. The 20Hz tune has slightly more output except everywhere except below 20Hz. If you build the VBSS with the Precision Ports (rather then the slot port) - you are tuned for 20Hz with both ports open and 15Hz with one port (or with one of the two plugged).
Thank you. Do you know of any videos that show the assembly sequence and how to make the connections? Also if I go for two is there anyway I can put both in one box as a rectangular laying on the side configuration?

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Here is the "dual driver version, so you can absolutely put both drivers in a single box and there should be no problem laying the box on it's side. I'm currently building one of these only I am putting the drivers on the 28" side as I only have 24" behind my screen.



For the dual driver version you will need

2 - Dayton Audio PA460 Drivers
1.5 - Sheets of 3/4" MDF (or alternately Baltic Birch Plywood)
1 - terminal cup

1 - foam mattress topper (or alternately acoustic foam or denim insulation)
1 - speaker wire
1 - exterior coating of your choice - in my case Exohyde.
1 - wood glue



For tools you will need
Table Saw or circular saw with a cutting guide
Router
Jasper Jig
Miter box


There is a set of videos on Youtube about building a VBSS End Table - I think it's 5 parts.




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There is a set of videos on Youtube about building a VBSS End Table - I think it's 5 parts.
*cough* I'll just leave this here...

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OK - I have my box built and braced and caulked waiting on me to cut and install the front baffle. Other than me needing to figure out how to use the Jasper Jig, I know I need to go ahead and install the foam to reduce resonances. I bought some 1" acoustic foam 12"x12" tiles on clearance for cheaper than a mattress topper. Whats the best way to secure them to the inside of the MDF cabinet? Can I use wood glue? caulk? or do I need to go get some liquid nails?
I used 3M Super 77. The trick is to spray both surfaces. Allow to dry to "tacky", then put the foam in place.

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Originally Posted by SRTpusher View Post
getting the box cut tomorrow and i would like to confirm the dimensions. subs are still in transit

i believe i found the dimensions / specs on the dayton audio site for the PA460

16.75" opening

18.25" for a flush mount baffle


Are these correct?


Thanks again!
I cut the flush mount baffle at 18.125"
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Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
Here is the "dual driver version, so you can absolutely put both drivers in a single box and there should be no problem laying the box on it's side. I'm currently building one of these only I am putting the drivers on the 28" side as I only have 24" behind my screen.



For the dual driver version you will need

2 - Dayton Audio PA460 Drivers
1.5 - Sheets of 3/4" MDF (or alternately Baltic Birch Plywood)
1 - terminal cup

1 - foam mattress topper (or alternately acoustic foam or denim insulation)
1 - speaker wire
1 - exterior coating of your choice - in my case Exohyde.
1 - wood glue



For tools you will need
Table Saw or circular saw with a cutting guide
Router
Jasper Jig
Miter box


There is a set of videos on Youtube about building a VBSS End Table - I think it's 5 parts.



Thank you.

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post #2335 of 2577 Old 06-03-2020, 08:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jevchance View Post
*cough* I'll just leave this here...



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjqeJ_6cBr8
Thank you.

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Originally Posted by genaccmiller View Post
Thank you.

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No problem, and I forgot Clamps under the tools needed.

7.4.4 Theater Room: JVC-RS500, Silver Ticket AT 2.35:1 142”, Onkyo RZ830, Anthem PVA-7, Panasonic UB420, Apple TV 4K, JBL Studio 530’s, Dual Driver VBSS

3.1 Living Room: Samsung 64” F8500 Plasma, Anthem MRX 300, Dynaudio Audience 52’s, Dynaudio Audience 122C, NHT SubOne, Roku Express (2019)
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post #2337 of 2577 Old 06-03-2020, 09:18 AM
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Thank you.

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Thanks for making the video. I went through the video and the parts I would have liked to see are the following. Can you point me towards the right resource for this?

1. How you made the binding post connections on the back and soldering on the internals
2. How you connected the internal wires to the woofer
3. How you connected to the receiver and configured this

I don't have a large room. My room is fairly small and has one Klipsch speaker behind an AT screen. In your video you said you recommend this for large rooms. So does it make sense to make one of these or two or none to keep at the back of my room behind the recliners?

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1.) There are multiple ways of doing this. Some people use a regular terminal cup with binding posts like you might see on a typical speaker like the one linked below:
https://www.parts-express.com/square...-jack--260-284


In this case the speaker wire coming from the receiver is connected just like you would any other speaker using bare wire, banana plugs, spades, etc. The inside of this particular binding post uses .205 female connectors like you see in automotive uses (among other things). I used the ones linked below. They do have to be crimped on. If you don't have a crimper already, I have linked one below that should work. No soldering required.

https://www.parts-express.com/0205-(...0-pcs--095-282


https://www.parts-express.com/gb-gs-...imper--360-630


Other people use "Speakon" connectors like the one below. I haven't used it but it appears to use the same style female connectors.

https://www.parts-express.com/neutri...mount--092-052




2.) You probably have some left over speaker wire from your build that you could use for the internal wiring to the VBSS - you only need a few feet. (note the crimping terminals I linked only work with 16g or 12g wire - if you have 12g you need a different terminal)



The PA460 drivers themselves a have spring loaded posts that accept bare wire connections


3.) From the receiver you will run RCA out from your subwoofer out to the Behringer amp. Now the Behringer amp does not accept RCA's o you will need an RCA to XLR adapter or an RCA to XLR cable. I use the one below:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=35812


From the Behringer amp you run regular speaker cable to the VBSS. The Behringer amp accepts Speakon connectors so you will want to buy connectors like the ones below, and on the VBSS side you just match up whatever terminal you put on the VBSS, Speakon's if you used a Speakon terminal, regualr speaker wire/banana plugs if you used a standard terminal cup.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=601500

7.4.4 Theater Room: JVC-RS500, Silver Ticket AT 2.35:1 142”, Onkyo RZ830, Anthem PVA-7, Panasonic UB420, Apple TV 4K, JBL Studio 530’s, Dual Driver VBSS

3.1 Living Room: Samsung 64” F8500 Plasma, Anthem MRX 300, Dynaudio Audience 52’s, Dynaudio Audience 122C, NHT SubOne, Roku Express (2019)
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post #2339 of 2577 Old 06-03-2020, 09:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mocs123 View Post
1.) There are multiple ways of doing this. Some people use a regular terminal cup with binding posts like you might see on a typical speaker like the one linked below:
https://www.parts-express.com/square...-jack--260-284


In this case the speaker wire coming from the receiver is connected just like you would any other speaker using bare wire, banana plugs, spades, etc. The inside of this particular binding post uses .205 female connectors like you see in automotive uses (among other things). I used the ones linked below. They do have to be crimped on. If you don't have a crimper already, I have linked one below that should work. No soldering required.

https://www.parts-express.com/0205-(...0-pcs--095-282


https://www.parts-express.com/gb-gs-...imper--360-630


Other people use "Speakon" connectors like the one below. I haven't used it but it appears to use the same style female connectors.

https://www.parts-express.com/neutri...mount--092-052




2.) You probably have some left over speaker wire from your build that you could use for the internal wiring to the VBSS - you only need a few feet. (note the crimping terminals I linked only work with 16g or 12g wire - if you have 12g you need a different terminal)



The PA460 drivers themselves a have spring loaded posts that accept bare wire connections


3.) From the receiver you will run RCA out from your subwoofer out to the Behringer amp. Now the Behringer amp does not accept RCA's o you will need an RCA to XLR adapter or an RCA to XLR cable. I use the one below:
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=35812


From the Behringer amp you run regular speaker cable to the VBSS. The Behringer amp accepts Speakon connectors so you will want to buy connectors like the ones below, and on the VBSS side you just match up whatever terminal you put on the VBSS, Speakon's if you used a Speakon terminal, regualr speaker wire/banana plugs if you used a standard terminal cup.
https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=601500
Let me make sure I understand correctly. I have already wired a RCA connector in wall between my receiver to the wall outlet behind my couch. I was assuming the sub would connect directly to it like my Klipsch with the amp being connected to the receiver in the equipment closet. Are you saying that's not possible? Would amp need to be outside? It will be difficult for me to keep going back behind the sofa.

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post #2340 of 2577 Old 06-03-2020, 10:00 AM
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Most DIY Subs, including the VBSS use pro audio amps like the Behringer NX series. Most consumer subs are powered by plate amps, that are mounted in the subs themselves - you can certainly do this with DIY subs, and Parts Express offers plate amps for sale but the VBSS utilizes DSP in the Behringer Amp for it's performance and I'm not sure how easy that would be to duplicate with another amp (even if it had DSP). Hopefully more knowledgeable folks can comment on that.


You could put the Behringer amp behind your seats with the sub but you'd have to figure out the best way to power it on and off.

7.4.4 Theater Room: JVC-RS500, Silver Ticket AT 2.35:1 142”, Onkyo RZ830, Anthem PVA-7, Panasonic UB420, Apple TV 4K, JBL Studio 530’s, Dual Driver VBSS

3.1 Living Room: Samsung 64” F8500 Plasma, Anthem MRX 300, Dynaudio Audience 52’s, Dynaudio Audience 122C, NHT SubOne, Roku Express (2019)
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