Dayton UM18 Xmax/XMech - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 27 Old 12-20-2015, 05:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Dayton UM18 Xmax/XMech

I've been trying to ascertain the actual XMax of the UM18. From my reading it appears that the stated spec may be a bit on the safe side, so I'm wondering if we actually have a measured XMax/XMech number for these subs.

I thought I read somewhere that its closer to 30mm rather than the rated 22mm which is based off the coil overhang or something of that nature.

Mainly I'm thinking about putting 2 of them in 4 cubic foot sealed boxes and want to know how much wattage I can hammer them with to make sure I get a bit more than that so there is some headroom.

I'm currently graphing 1500 watts per sub which puts me "Barely" above rated excursion of 22mm with max of around 24.

Anyway if anyone could point me in the right direction if there is one, I'd greatly appreciate it.

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post #2 of 27 Old 12-20-2015, 05:11 PM
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the numbers that i recall are around 25mm Klippel verified and 28mm usable (calculated from data-bass distortion testing) and much higher xmech.


it is "xmax" by the way, as in "excursion maximum".

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post #3 of 27 Old 12-20-2015, 05:17 PM
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What happens between xmax and xmech? Seems like more bass, and that xmech SHOULD be xmax! haha
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post #4 of 27 Old 12-20-2015, 05:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the numbers that i recall are around 25mm Klippel verified and 28mm usable (calculated from data-bass distortion testing) and much higher xmech.


it is "xmax" by the way, as in "excursion maximum".
Thanks... I've had a problem typing it right consistently for quite some time lol...

tis the season

Thanks, that lets me know I'm probably fine since I dont get about 24 with what I have planned, but I am above 22mm from about 20hz on but just above 22 for most of that.

Just looking to top my Martycube w SI 15" driver by a fair margin with sealed and seems these might just do that...

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What happens between xmax and xmech? Seems like more bass, and that xmech SHOULD be xmax! haha
I'm sure I will be corrected if I am wrong here but XMax is where you start to get a LOT more distortion but you havent "damaged" the driver persay if you dont have it there all the time. XMech is the Mechanical limit of the driver before you start smoking it for sure. Being above XMax wont guarantee a smoked driver, hitting XMech consistently will...

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post #5 of 27 Old 12-20-2015, 06:20 PM
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sounds like you are in good shape. in reality, the driver won't get quite as far as in model owing to some compression (from air in the cab, power compression in the driver, power compression in the amp, falling motor force as xmax is approached/exceeded, signal chain rolloff, etc.) the um18's seem to be holding up pretty well. i can't recall a death by over excursion.
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post #6 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 07:19 AM - Thread Starter
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So in doing some more reading I found a reference to the Equal Loudness Contour. Can someone explain what this graph is showing? I'm hoping its not saying to feel lower frequencies you need more SPL than to feel the same frequencies higher up in the Hz range..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour


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post #7 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I'm hoping its not saying to feel lower frequencies you need more SPL than to feel the same frequencies higher up in the Hz range..
Yes, actually that's exactly what it is saying. So basically if you have a sound of 1500hz at 80db's it would take 120db to sound equally as loud at 20hz. This is the reason that people can sit in those crazy SPL cars pushing 150+ db's and not walk away with their ears bleeding.

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post #8 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 08:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, actually that's exactly what it is saying. So basically if you have a sound of 1500hz at 80db's it would take 120db to sound equally as loud at 20hz. This is the reason that people can sit in those crazy SPL cars pushing 150+ db's and not walk away with their ears bleeding.
Grrr....

Then a follow-up question..... I was looking to build the dual UM-18's in a sealed box to help with the sub 20hz stuff. My Martycube starts a high roll-off around 21hz with a highpass at 17.

Will 2 UM-18's make much of a difference if they are only about 6db hotter in WinISD @ 20hz (and increasing of course), or am I chasing my tail with them? They sure as heck aren't showing 120db in WinISD once you factor in my seating area is 10 feet away and my room is quite large.....

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post #9 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 09:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Grrr....

Then a follow-up question..... I was looking to build the dual UM-18's in a sealed box to help with the sub 20hz stuff. My Martycube starts a high roll-off around 21hz with a highpass at 17.

Will 2 UM-18's make much of a difference if they are only about 6db hotter in WinISD @ 20hz (and increasing of course), or am I chasing my tail with them? They sure as heck aren't showing 120db in WinISD once you factor in my seating area is 10 feet away and my room is quite large.....
You also have you remember that depending on your room size you will have a certain amount of room gain in the lower octaves as well which will help out. WinISD numbers do not account for boundary reinforcement either. So if your sub is placed near (i.e. within a 1/4 wavelength) of a wall (+3db) or in a corner(+6db) you will have additional output as well.

All that being said, there are not many systems out there capable of hitting 120+db' below 20hz with low'ish distortion. It generally takes large numbers of large subs with a lot of power. Also, we are talking about reference levels, I personally never listen at reference, so I never have the need to hit 120db's (not that I don't on occasion for fun! ) making it a lot easier to hit those equal loudness curves when my mains are only playing at 70db's.

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post #10 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by squiers007 View Post
You also have you remember that depending on your room size you will have a certain amount of room gain in the lower octaves as well which will help out. WinISD numbers do not account for boundary reinforcement either. So if your sub is placed near (i.e. within a 1/4 wavelength) of a wall (+3db) or in a corner(+6db) you will have additional output as well.

All that being said, there are not many systems out there capable of hitting 120+db' below 20hz with low'ish distortion. It generally takes large numbers of large subs with a lot of power. Also, we are talking about reference levels, I personally never listen at reference, so I never have the need to hit 120db's (not that I don't on occasion for fun! ) making it a lot easier to hit those equal loudness curves when my mains are only playing at 70db's.

True, I rarely listen at reference either, but the point of building duals was to make the sub 20hz stuff able to be felt much more than it is now (because its basically not lol)....

I will pull out my SPL meter when I get home and put it at my normal movie listening volume as once I have that, I can gauge what I need from dual subs SPL wise to be there per that graph.

And you are correct, there will be some room gain that WinISD doesn't account for so hopefully that will help me out, because the UM18's dont have a ton of excursion compared to what I initially wanted which are the HST (just too pricey for me, and really need wayyy to much power), so I cant do a lot of boosting down low without risking smoking the driver, so the natural rolloff starting about 25hz is what I will have to live with.

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post #11 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 11:38 AM
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The equal loudness is about sound level, not feel. Here is a good post by Ricci from Data-bass, I pulled it from this thread.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...equencies.html

Originally Posted by Ricci

Bosso is correct that the more solidly built concrete or brick constructed room will exhibit more gain and more even gain below 20Hz. I have done the same measurements and they are remarkably similar. So yes you will get more SPL in the deep bass. Everyone is on the same page there, but that is not all there is to consider.

I moved from a 4500 cu ft very lossy wooden frame room with suspended floor over crawl space to a 3500ish cube room, half submerged below ground level, with only 1 wall and the ceiling that are not either concrete or brick. I had the exact same system in both rooms. I have measurements of that system from both rooms and just as Bosso posted the newer more solid room shows much better gain below 20Hz and the headroom available we'll just call "enough" for me. The system is measurably more powerful in the new room. Subjectively the really deep bass "ULF" experience (<25Hz) is dramatically different and was far better in the old flimsy wood room despite less actual gain from the room. This is due to the floor shaking with the deep bass and giving tactile feedback to your whole body through the seat. In the old room I could literally vibrate a quite heavy coffee table that weighed probably 50 or 60 lbs across the wood floor with Pulse at REF level. It was scary to sit in there and watch movies because the structure was actually moving beneath you. in the new room the gain is better so the same system actually has more output capability delivered to the seats but the cement slab floor resolutely refuses to transfer energy even at much louder playback levels than used in the old wood room. I get less tactile transmission in the new room at REF playback than I did at -15 in the wood room. In the old room with the wood floor I could actually feel the frequency of really deep effects through the seat. The best part was I had no trouble getting this effect at even -15 below REF so movies did not have to be cranked to enjoy tactile and powerful feeling LFE effects. In the concrete slab room this effect is a very pale shadow of what it used to be even playing movies back 10dB hotter and that is with a double 18" directly behind the couch to attempt to get some transmission into the seats. It's just not the same and I miss that old wood floor.

Now consider that below 20Hz the average hearing rapidly diminishes and we switch to other senses to perceive sound that low. Most of that information comes from either very high SPL or more typically objects or yourself physically shaking. My experiences in these 2 rooms with the same system has convinced me that as far as perceiving frequencies below 20Hz and especially below 15Hz goes, the direct transmission of the sound as vibration to your body through the furniture or structure is far more effective than pure sound transmission through the air. It requires significant SPL to be able to get even a sense of the sub 15Hz stuff without direct tactile effects and this means that it not only requires a lot of firepower to reproduce, but that if you typically listen at more sane playback volumes like -20 to maybe -10 from REF, the content below 15Hz might peak at maybe 85-95dB unless you are running a rising response or the bass hot, so even if reproduced it is unlikely to matter much subjectively unless you have some direct structural or furniture vibration. Not to harp on this anymore but in my old wood floor room sub 15Hz effects were an event easily noticed at even modest playback levels and it was quite apparent when I cut them out with a high pass filter. In the new concrete floor room it is still noticeable with some of the same tracks but the level needs to be louder and it is far more subtle when the high pass is inserted. It’s not all wins for the wood room though…With the majority of the bass range of let’s say 25-125Hz the more solid concrete and brick room is better both objectively and subjectively to me.

So all of that said the summary of my personal opinion is that the tactile effects and shake from a suspended wooden floor or riser makes far more subjective difference at sub 20Hz frequencies than the SPL gain from concrete or brick boundaries. So much so that I would say it easily overshadows any extra gains you would see from a smaller full concrete block room let alone one or two boundaries. After the bass system itself the floor structure or structure the seating is on should be the number 1 modifier to look at for this speculative ULF calculation rather than overall room construction or even size. If a concrete wall is a 1.26 then a suspended floor should be like a 7.8 modifier. The construction of the walls and ceiling also have an effect on the apparent low frequency gain as does the size and shape of the space, including the placement of the speakers and yourself within it, but we are constantly in contact with the floor and any vibrations transmitted through it. If I could build my perfect room all structural boundaries would be inert, dense and massive, except for the floor which would be a wooden suspended floor.

YMMV. This is all just my opinion.

I would urge everyone to try to audition a powerful deep extending system on a suspended floor at some point. It can be eye opening if you have not had that experience. I have had the same system on both concrete and wood and I know which one gave me the more visceral and intense sub audible bass presentation.
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post #12 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 11:46 AM
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An interesting read about psychoacoustic effect of vibration

http://www.sebastianmerchel.de/loudness_illusion.html
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post #13 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 11:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp View Post
The equal loudness is about sound level, not feel. Here is a good post by Ricci from Data-bass, I pulled it from this thread.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...equencies.html

Originally Posted by Ricci

Bosso is correct that the more solidly built concrete or brick constructed room will exhibit more gain and more even gain below 20Hz. I have done the same measurements and they are remarkably similar. So yes you will get more SPL in the deep bass. Everyone is on the same page there, but that is not all there is to consider.

I moved from a 4500 cu ft very lossy wooden frame room with suspended floor over crawl space to a 3500ish cube room, half submerged below ground level, with only 1 wall and the ceiling that are not either concrete or brick. I had the exact same system in both rooms. I have measurements of that system from both rooms and just as Bosso posted the newer more solid room shows much better gain below 20Hz and the headroom available we'll just call "enough" for me. The system is measurably more powerful in the new room. Subjectively the really deep bass "ULF" experience (<25Hz) is dramatically different and was far better in the old flimsy wood room despite less actual gain from the room. This is due to the floor shaking with the deep bass and giving tactile feedback to your whole body through the seat. In the old room I could literally vibrate a quite heavy coffee table that weighed probably 50 or 60 lbs across the wood floor with Pulse at REF level. It was scary to sit in there and watch movies because the structure was actually moving beneath you. in the new room the gain is better so the same system actually has more output capability delivered to the seats but the cement slab floor resolutely refuses to transfer energy even at much louder playback levels than used in the old wood room. I get less tactile transmission in the new room at REF playback than I did at -15 in the wood room. In the old room with the wood floor I could actually feel the frequency of really deep effects through the seat. The best part was I had no trouble getting this effect at even -15 below REF so movies did not have to be cranked to enjoy tactile and powerful feeling LFE effects. In the concrete slab room this effect is a very pale shadow of what it used to be even playing movies back 10dB hotter and that is with a double 18" directly behind the couch to attempt to get some transmission into the seats. It's just not the same and I miss that old wood floor.

Now consider that below 20Hz the average hearing rapidly diminishes and we switch to other senses to perceive sound that low. Most of that information comes from either very high SPL or more typically objects or yourself physically shaking. My experiences in these 2 rooms with the same system has convinced me that as far as perceiving frequencies below 20Hz and especially below 15Hz goes, the direct transmission of the sound as vibration to your body through the furniture or structure is far more effective than pure sound transmission through the air. It requires significant SPL to be able to get even a sense of the sub 15Hz stuff without direct tactile effects and this means that it not only requires a lot of firepower to reproduce, but that if you typically listen at more sane playback volumes like -20 to maybe -10 from REF, the content below 15Hz might peak at maybe 85-95dB unless you are running a rising response or the bass hot, so even if reproduced it is unlikely to matter much subjectively unless you have some direct structural or furniture vibration. Not to harp on this anymore but in my old wood floor room sub 15Hz effects were an event easily noticed at even modest playback levels and it was quite apparent when I cut them out with a high pass filter. In the new concrete floor room it is still noticeable with some of the same tracks but the level needs to be louder and it is far more subtle when the high pass is inserted. It’s not all wins for the wood room though…With the majority of the bass range of let’s say 25-125Hz the more solid concrete and brick room is better both objectively and subjectively to me.

So all of that said the summary of my personal opinion is that the tactile effects and shake from a suspended wooden floor or riser makes far more subjective difference at sub 20Hz frequencies than the SPL gain from concrete or brick boundaries. So much so that I would say it easily overshadows any extra gains you would see from a smaller full concrete block room let alone one or two boundaries. After the bass system itself the floor structure or structure the seating is on should be the number 1 modifier to look at for this speculative ULF calculation rather than overall room construction or even size. If a concrete wall is a 1.26 then a suspended floor should be like a 7.8 modifier. The construction of the walls and ceiling also have an effect on the apparent low frequency gain as does the size and shape of the space, including the placement of the speakers and yourself within it, but we are constantly in contact with the floor and any vibrations transmitted through it. If I could build my perfect room all structural boundaries would be inert, dense and massive, except for the floor which would be a wooden suspended floor.

YMMV. This is all just my opinion.

I would urge everyone to try to audition a powerful deep extending system on a suspended floor at some point. It can be eye opening if you have not had that experience. I have had the same system on both concrete and wood and I know which one gave me the more visceral and intense sub audible bass presentation.
Like everyone else I've sold subs that I've built, but I've also been shocked to find that my own sub was completely unrecognizable in a friends HT room which is on the 2nd floor of his house. Not only was he using less than half the power I was, his room was 3-4x larger and basically open to every other room on his main floor. He didn't even have two full walls for his HT.

The difference in tactile feel <20hz was planets apart.


So far the only people I've found that will argue that the affects below 20hz are NOT going to change from room to room are selling something.
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post #14 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 12:21 PM
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Vibsensor.


That is all.

I was expecting something more like:


"Sub.


Riser.


You're welcome."




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So couple comments after reading those posts

-I wish so bad I was on a suspended floor... but I'm not, its on a slab.
-Since I'm on a slab should I just be looking at Cowan Transducers inside the furniture instead of redoing my subs?
-Riser would be a awesome option... if it were an option

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post #18 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 12:39 PM
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So couple comments after reading those posts

-I wish so bad I was on a suspended floor... but I'm not, its on a slab.
-Since I'm on a slab should I just be looking at Cowan Transducers inside the furniture instead of redoing my subs?
-Riser would be a awesome option... if it were an option

Many of us wish we were on suspended floors.

If riser is not an option then Crowon is a solid choice and incredibly easy to install.
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-Riser would be a awesome option... if it were an option
Any particular reason why it isn't? They're cheap and easy to build...2x6s for the sides, 2x2s for the supports, some plywood for the top, nails, glue, insulation and carpeting.
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post #20 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 01:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Any particular reason why it isn't? They're cheap and easy to build...2x6s for the sides, 2x2s for the supports, some plywood for the top, nails, glue, insulation and carpeting.
Matching the existing carpet would be likely impossible, and even if it is my wife would likely not allow it since this is in our main living room so I'd have to have 2 risers (couch + loveseat) at least if not three (to account for chair in corner) in a L shape. All that would look a bit too tacky to do unfortunately.

And running a raised subfloor in that room so the entire floor is wood would mean a step up into it from the other 3 directly attached rooms, not to mention redoing the baseboards,etc.

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post #21 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 01:14 PM
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Matching the existing carpet would be likely impossible, and even if it is my wife would likely not allow it since this is in our main living room so I'd have to have 2 risers (couch + loveseat) at least if not three (to account for chair in corner). All that would look a bit too tacky to do unfortunately.
Ahh...yeah, that makes sense.

Well, the shakers are a great option. I use both subs and shakers, and when integrated well they really add to the immersion level of films.
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post #22 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 02:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Ahh...yeah, that makes sense.

Well, the shakers are a great option. I use both subs and shakers, and when integrated well they really add to the immersion level of films.
Yeah, may end up being forced that route. I'd have preferred to simply use subs, but they might not get me where I want to be.

The Crowon tranduscers sure are pricey though compared to the other alternatives (buttkicker, Aura Pro bass shaker, etc)

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post #23 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 02:58 PM
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Dan, that slab is your biggest enemy.

My 2 SVS cylinders are like completely different subs in the new place. I was running them VERY hot in the townhouse but it was because I wasn't getting the tactile sensation I wanted on the first floor slab.
Moving into this place, it has been a huge revelation as to what I was missing. I run about 40% of the gain I ran before and still meet and exceed the same levels I was getting before with a MUCH better tactile feel.

On the plus side, if you guys keep having kids like rabbits, you're going to need a bigger house which plays into your hands perfectly... *evil laugh*

I keep confusing my intentions with my abilities.
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post #24 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 03:06 PM
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True, I rarely listen at reference either, but the point of building duals was to make the sub 20hz stuff able to be felt much more than it is now (because its basically not lol)....
Two words, end tables.
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post #25 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
True, I rarely listen at reference either, but the point of building duals was to make the sub 20hz stuff able to be felt much more than it is now (because its basically not lol)....
Two words, end tables.
One will be already. The other caddy corner to it in the front right corner. That's about the best I can do given large(ish) boxes.
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post #26 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 06:31 PM
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I think going from a single 15" ported to dual 18" sealed in seperate locations would be worth it even on concrete. If you have a way to measure response you can set delays then eq for optimal performance. The Crowsons are great and I bet you would like them with or without changing your current subwoofer system. They do take some setup integration and want an unaltered signal. I guess I am saying dual 18" and Crowsons should be a nice upgrade.
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post #27 of 27 Old 12-21-2015, 06:43 PM
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I'm on concrete floor. Added big rubber feet to bottom of couch and then put foam couch movers under feet for additional shake. Helped some.
Then bought cheap 50w aura shakers to try out - one per couch sectio . They rock! They probably don't do as much below 20hz as the higher $ competition, but they are better than subs alone for shake. Though I probably pump them more full of watts than I should. 2 years in and they still kicking on about 125 w each maxed out. Which they are not maxed often. I also feed the auras some low shelf boost from an inuke dsp which also helps below 20hz.
I have two sealed ftw21s and am adding 2 more nearfield but I am a guessing without a riser they are not going to add as much as I hope..
So this thead once again has me thinking of a short riser.
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