In-Floor 18 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 01-08-2016, 06:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Lightbulb In-Floor 18

Hello,

I have an idea to put part of a tax return to good use. I want to put an 18" Dayton Classic (http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...4-ohm--295-475) subwoofer in my floor. Lately, I have been implementing options to increase the available space in my small living room, beginning with the in-wall book case and in-ceiling speakers. Freeing up a couple square feet of floor space makes a world of perceptual difference. Thus, I do not want to put a large subwoofer on the floor.

The plan is 16 cubic feet, because this is the largest space I can occupy under the floor in this location without preventing us from accessing the washer and dryer in the basement comfortably. You can see pictures of the basement, where the subwoofer box will be mounted in between floor joists spaced with 20.125" of available width. The light fixture will be moved.

The plan for the driver is 16 ft3, 18Hz tune. I plan to cut a 22" square in the very corner of my living room floor, and install an hvac grill or register. The driver, and the two ports will have to exit this 22" square area.

Winisd Pro tells me, without specifics (they are at work), that this arrangement will allow me decent extension into just below 20Hz at levels that should be enough to shake everything in my house... I am thinking the effect will be nice with the mechanical coupling of the box to the floor joists. What are your thoughts? IIRC, Winisd tells me it can exceed xmax at the 300rms I want to give it, but will it exceed xmech? Dayton does not share this spec.

As a side note, at the same time of the construction of the subwoofer, the tv will be corner wall mounted using this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Also, I plan to install DIY corner (triangle) shelving below the television to house a new PC build (HTPC), and the iNuke NU1000DSP (http://www.parts-express.com/behring...-dsp--248-6702) that will power this sub.

The idea for the NU1000DSP is to use both channels bridged into the 4 ohm load, with an appropriate limiter setting in the DSP. Am I correct in thinking that this is a better way to go than using a single channel?

Regarding driver choice, I am aware there are better choices that will allow me to use a smaller box, and perhaps get more SPL. But, I am limited on budget unfortunately.

Being in a corner, I am aware that room modes (and boundary gain) will be increased, but I have had a small sub in this location in the past with good response. Also, I feel that since the sub will be located within the floor boundary, interference should be reduced. Is this correct?

Surprisingly, the wife has been OK with this plan so far (keeping fingers crossed!)

Thanks guys, I appreciate any thoughts and/or suggestions to improve this plan. As you can probably tell, I am not incredibly experienced in this DIY field, and may have a lot of questions. I have enjoyed mostly lurking on this forum for some time and soaking up everyone's knowledge.

Sorry for the book-long post!

PS. sorry for the mess in the pics! I have a two-year old son and niece in the house who will be "helping" me with these projects.

Tomorrow I will try to post my Winisd Pro sim results, box dimensions, etc. for my initial plan.
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post #2 of 24 Old 01-09-2016, 09:02 AM
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Ever heard of Infinite Baffle subs? Research it and then address what you want to do. If you are going to cut a hole in your floor, you might as well get the most bang for your buck. Also, make sure that is a good spot for a sub before you do anything.

Don't use the driver you linked either.
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post #3 of 24 Old 01-09-2016, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
Ever heard of Infinite Baffle subs? Research it and then address what you want to do. If you are going to cut a hole in your floor, you might as well get the most bang for your buck. Also, make sure that is a good spot for a sub before you do anything.

Don't use the driver you linked either.

Thanks for your reply.

I did put some thought into the IB option. The problem I found with it was that, while I will get better quality bass, I will have to spend much more. This configuration requires drivers with much more excursion, and also requires multiple drivers, which will likely require more amplifier power.

My application doesn't require extreme quality, but does require low cost. Bang for buck brings to mind quality or quantity for price. I am willing to sacrifice some quality for quantity (SPL) and low price. I believe the Dayton will get me there with an iNuke 1000. If I go IB, I will likely need multiple higher quality drivers, which is just not an option for me, unfortunately. Perhaps down the road?

Here is the SPL from winisd (the winisd pro data with excursion etc. is not available to me right now).

As far as the Dayton goes. You suggested that I choose another driver. For the price, is there a reason why this drive is not a good choice for $125?

And, regarding placement, I was happy with the response (but not SPL) of a small 12 I had in this position a while back. It sounded good over it's range at several seating positions.

Keep in mind, I am looking for a good performance vs. budget compromise, not perfection. The total cost for this project is looking to be <$500 including lumber, cables, etc.

Thanks.
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post #4 of 24 Old 01-09-2016, 03:30 PM
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If you are thinking about a budget IB, Dayton has this on clearance: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...oofer--295-455
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post #5 of 24 Old 01-10-2016, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by odysseybmx414 View Post
I did put some thought into the IB option. The problem I found with it was that, while I will get better quality bass, I will have to spend much more. This configuration requires drivers with much more excursion, and also requires multiple drivers, which will likely require more amplifier power.

Yes and no. You do want more drivers for an IB, but they're very efficient for deep bass so you don't need lots of power. You also save some money by building a small manifold instead of a huge box. I'd consider four Infinity 1262w drivers for $240 with the NU1000DSP for $200. And if you design your manifold for expansion, you could add four more drivers to that amp down the road, for only the cost of the drivers.

You should also look up some of the horn designs as well, maybe one of lilmike's designs like the F20.
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post #6 of 24 Old 01-10-2016, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
Yes and no. You do want more drivers for an IB, but they're very efficient for deep bass so you don't need lots of power. You also save some money by building a small manifold instead of a huge box. I'd consider four Infinity 1262w drivers for $240 with the NU1000DSP for $200. And if you design your manifold for expansion, you could add four more drivers to that amp down the road, for only the cost of the drivers.

You should also look up some of the horn designs as well, maybe one of lilmike's designs like the F20.
OK, you guys have convinced me to look further into the IB option. I have simulated two options. The first is 4x of the Infinity drivers in 1800ft3. The second is 8x GRS 12SW-4 (http://www.parts-express.com/grs-12s...4-ohm--292-484). This is a $19 dollar subwoofer driver that normally wouldn't be given any consideration, but with 8 of them the results look promising. Powered with 380RMS into a two ohm load (one iNuke channel), it does exceed xmax by ~3mm, but dynamic eq or a highpass would help. I'm looking at a top of 120dB @ 40Hz and 113dB @ 20Hz at this input power. With 4x Infinity drivers, I'd be looking at 113dB and 108dB at 40, and 20Hz, respectively. Graphs below. What do you think? I will check out a few horn designs in the meantime. Again, thanks for your suggestions and help.

1. 8x GRS 12SW-4, configured to 2 Ohms, 380W RMS, 1800ft3 IB.
2. 4x Infinity Reference 1262W, configured to 2 Ohms, 380W RMS, 1800ft3 IB.
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post #7 of 24 Old 01-23-2016, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, I am days away from purchasing my shopping list, which currently consists of:

8x GRS 12SW-4 drivers
1x iNuke 1000DSP
1x 50ft 12ga speaker wire
2x 4 pole speakon connectors
1x 3.5mm stereo to two 1/4" TS adapter
1x Mount-It! MI-326B corner tv wall mount
a few 1x 10 project boards for the corner shelving underneath the tv, inc. stain and poly
1x 20" x 20" grille (for floor manifold)

I will update the thread during construction for anybody who may be interested.
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post #8 of 24 Old 01-23-2016, 08:05 PM
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The infinity is 93db sensitive to the GRS' 88db. The GRS has 8.5mm xmax and we've had members run their 1260w's up to 18mm without bad noises. I don't have my computer but the graphs aren't looking correct to me. The GRS' are modeling like they are vented. I could be way off but based on the t/s and known limitations of the 1260w, it would seem the 4 1260s would still beat the 8 GRS. I guess at $20 a piece you could do 10 of the GRS to match the 1260w price!!!
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post #9 of 24 Old 01-23-2016, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
The infinity is 93db sensitive to the GRS' 88db. The GRS has 8.5mm xmax and we've had members run their 1260w's up to 18mm without bad noises. I don't have my computer but the graphs aren't looking correct to me. The GRS' are modeling like they are vented. I could be way off but based on the t/s and known limitations of the 1260w, it would seem the 4 1260s would still beat the 8 GRS. I guess at $20 a piece you could do 10 of the GRS to match the 1260w price!!!
The 1260w is I believe around 89db @ 2.87. I agree with you though. He can always add 4 more 1260w later. Also, if an IB doesn't work out, he has a better driver to work with.
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post #10 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 04:35 AM
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The 1260w is I believe around 89db @ 2.87. I agree with you though. He can always add 4 more 1260w later. Also, if an IB doesn't work out, he has a better driver to work with.
It's 93 since it has a single voicecoil. The GRS will be hard to pass up, the price is incredible. Either way, you'll be winning!

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post #11 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 05:13 AM - Thread Starter
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Guys, forgive me. I'm not convinced that the infinity is a better driver for me, from looking at simulations for my application. It is most definitely a beefier driver in general, I can agree.

Since I am stubborn, I think I'll go for the 8 GRS. I can always add a second manifold and more of these for cheap. The reviews are encouraging as well.

Unless my Sims are incorrect? I double checked all of the parameters.

Thanks for your replies!

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post #12 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 05:33 AM
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Something seems off....8 drivers in an 1800 ft^3 enclosure with a Qtc of 1.008? That's 250 ft^3 per driver, no way it could have this high a Qtc.

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post #13 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 05:33 AM
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It's 93 since it has a single voicecoil. The GRS will be hard to pass up, the price is incredible. Either way, you'll be winning!

Look at the sealed graph. It clearly shows 89. 93 is with cabin gain from a car or extra gain from a high tune. Plug it into winisd. I've been modeling it for the last week since I bought 6 of them.

Odyssey, try them out and let us know. I hope they work out great.
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post #14 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 05:39 AM
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In-Floor 18

Ody, my model pretty much matches yours. I'm not sure if there's any flaw in using such a crazy high Q driver in an IB, maybe @LTD02 has a thought. corradizo, the high Q of the driver is why the response has that big hump around 30-60 Hz. Qtc in IB is 1.016. Response should be fixable via EQ if there's any issue.

What's the stereo to TS adapter for? Do you plan on adding another 8 drivers later? Is there another space in the basement where you can put a second manifold?

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post #15 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 05:44 AM
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Not seeing the driver specs, what is the Qts of these? Must be crazy high.

Looked it up, .98. Wow. These may be decent in an open baffle design. To bad OP doesn't have the room.

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post #16 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
Ody, my model pretty much matches yours. I'm not sure if there's any flaw in using such a crazy high Q driver in an IB, maybe @LTD02 has a thought. corradizo, the high Q of the driver is why the response has that big hump around 30-60 Hz. Qtc in IB is 1.016. Response should be fixable via EQ if there's any issue.

What's the stereo to TS adapter for? Do you plan on adding another 8 drivers later? Is there another space in the basement where you can put a second manifold?

Attachment 1205370
Wow, that's sweet!! Would you mind posting your .wdr file for the GRS and 1260w for those of us that are lazy?
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post #17 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
Ody, my model pretty much matches yours. I'm not sure if there's any flaw in using such a crazy high Q driver in an IB, maybe @LTD02 has a thought. corradizo, the high Q of the driver is why the response has that big hump around 30-60 Hz. Qtc in IB is 1.016. Response should be fixable via EQ if there's any issue.

What's the stereo to TS adapter for? Do you plan on adding another 8 drivers later? Is there another space in the basement where you can put a second manifold?

Attachment 1205370
Hi rhodesj, the adapter would be to take my subwoofer out from my HT/gaming PC (that I am building at the same time), and give me two outputs for the iNuke. This way, if I find myself in a situation in the future where I need to use the second channel on the iNuke, I can. Unless I am missing something with this idea.

If anybody is interested in PC building, attached is my NewEgg shopping list (the 80mm silent fan is for the iNuke fan mod).
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post #18 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 07:01 AM
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You can use a single input on the iNuke for both channels by using the Biamp1 setting.
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post #19 of 24 Old 01-24-2016, 09:51 AM
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sensitivity is best specified at 1w. using 2.83v or something else can goose it by drawing more power.
the infinity is about 86db 1w1m the grs is about 85db 1w1m.
with that out of the way... :-)
why not?
the traditional advice about q is wrong. the clearest example of that is the open baffle speaker with the el cheapo eminence alpha. the jbl L100 also comes to mind.
with that much volume (1800 c.f.), 8 drivers provides about a q=1.00 in an infinite baffle and that seems fine.
two subs are typically better than one for achieving smooth bass in a room, but you gotta go with what you've got to work with.
I'd probably limit power to 250 watts until you get a feel for how the drivers are holding up.
neat project.
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post #20 of 24 Old 02-06-2016, 11:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I pulled the trigger on this. Ordered the amp and 6 drivers. I'm going with six based on a review on PE from a guy who currently uses 4 in an IB and seems to be satisfied. I'm going to go with a 20 x 20 grille in the floor at the manifold. I'll run the subs series parallel for a 6 ohm load bridged and power limited. I'll update the thread once I build.

If only I could change the thread title.

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post #21 of 24 Old 02-09-2016, 03:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Cleaned up the tv corner. The htpc will be a better fit than the current one. Also, the unwrapping has begun.

First impressions on these drivers. These are the best $19 drivers you can find. They certainly don't seem lacking in construction. The 8.5mm xmax seems conservative.

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post #22 of 24 Old 02-14-2017, 06:05 AM
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Any update on this project?
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post #23 of 24 Old 02-23-2017, 08:28 AM
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I'm thinking about building two 6 driver sealed towers for my next subs, using these GRS woofers.

Also I love IB and i wish i could do it too.
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post #24 of 24 Old 02-24-2017, 07:58 AM
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