6 sub budget build - an LTD02 design - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 02:20 PM - Thread Starter
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6 sub budget build - an LTD02 design

Good afternoon all!

I've entered the SW portion of my DIY HT project! The Volt 8" LX surrounds are complete and I'm in a holding pattern waiting for the 1099 L/C/R to show up and so its time to stay busy with SW builds!

I requested the help of LTD02 to design me a build for HT and music use. He was willing to help and has been great answering all sorts of questions behind the scenes. I'm not that far along but already have to thank him sincerely for his willingness. I have roughly $1,200 to spend and lots of room with 9'h ceilings. The subs as well as L/C/R will be hidden behind a false wall and AT screen. LTD02 presented me with the following design:



The driver to be used is the PA 460 - http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...oofer--295-036

I almost pooped myself realizing my eyes had not deceived me and LTD02 was suggesting 6 ENCLOSURES/SUBS. With a natural disposition of overdoing everything I enjoy I decided the time was now to start building 6 enclosures!

First one is well on its way - this one is to serve as my prototype. I do not have a nail gun so I used glue and (2-3 per panel) 1.25" coarse thread wood screws countersunk to fasten the panels.



I'll finish this one up this week and then buy panels for the remaining 5 and build the rest of them concurrently. ITS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME but I will check back with updates/comments and would appreciate suggestions/comments from you all!

I would welcome names for this build; going to pick my favorite of the communities suggestions!
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post #2 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 02:43 PM
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Added bonus is that you can add 2 more, and not need another amp.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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post #3 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Schacht View Post
Added bonus is that you can add 2 more, and not need another amp.


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Glad you mentioned that; the amp LTD suggested is the inuke 3000 DSP. To my surprise this one amp will provide sufficient power for this design. Can I add two more and still stay with this amp? I'm fresh out a room that would be the first obstacle to overcome lol

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post #4 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 05:39 PM
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He designed my sub enclosure as well. I cant thank him enough.Its people like this that makes this forum so great.
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post #5 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 07:18 PM - Thread Starter
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He designed my sub enclosure as well. I cant thank him enough.Its people like this that makes this forum so great.
Agree completely
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post #6 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 07:38 PM
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Ridiculous 6.....
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Blasting brown notes for 10 years and counting!

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post #7 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 08:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ddigler View Post
Glad you mentioned that; the amp LTD suggested is the inuke 3000 DSP. To my surprise this one amp will provide sufficient power for this design. Can I add two more and still stay with this amp? I'm fresh out a room that would be the first obstacle to overcome lol
Yes, an inkuke 3000dsp is 2 ohm stable on each channel. That particular speaker is 8ohms, so you can 4 subs off of each side for a 2ohm load vs the 2.6ish you're getting with 3 subs on each side.
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post #8 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 08:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Ridiculous 6.....
This is a great start lol
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post #9 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 08:16 PM
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I really love how this is probably the only site in existence that can 'see' how building 6 18" drivers, all in separate boxes, equates to a 'budget' build .

It's like ... go BIG, so you can STAY home !! Just say NO to $10 popcorn !!

Looks like a great build ! and great fun !!

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post #10 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 08:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Schacht View Post
Yes, an inkuke 3000dsp is 2 ohm stable on each channel. That particular speaker is 8ohms, so you can 4 subs off of each side for a 2ohm load vs the 2.6ish you're getting with 3 subs on each side.
Over my head mike but I trust you thanks for the info. Prob is I am out of room and mdf haha. Figuring the six will create enough output that I don't need more but I'll have to wait and see.

From researching prior avs sub builds it is a non traditional design IMO; anxious to hear how it turns out and really enjoying the build!
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post #11 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 08:34 PM
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The PA 460 seems really popular right now and for the price you can' t beat it.

Would going to the next model up at PE be worth the extra money?
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...8-ohm--295-042
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post #12 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 08:56 PM
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Digitaur

Diglitaur

Diglitorus

Diglitorus 6

Diglitorus Rex

Diglitorus Wrecks ?

or even Diglitorusex

or Dyslegtoresix

Digsrexus? OK, I'll stop there... I like this one... I was just typing out different versions, that included your Screen name, somehow.


or.... Rexus ... "the Rexus sub" sounds good
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post #13 of 234 Old 02-28-2016, 11:09 PM
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I like "the Deep digler"
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post #14 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 04:00 AM
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on this one, the budget was very tight and the o.p. mentioned that a good chunk of the time will be spent on concert blu rays and other music.
he had plenty of space to work with, so we took advantage of it all. :-) i figured that in this case it was worth it to go for a little higher sensitivity speaker for upper/midbass performance. even with only 6mm coil overhang, six of those driver will produces over 123db on the low end, so not exactly a slouch for movies either (and the drivers have usable excursion past overhang, obviously). the large cabs and high sensitivity drivers are super efficient--about 100db/1w1m at 50hz before room gain (and that is with cabs tuned just under 20hz). this allowed use of the low cost amp. an additional 2 driver will only provide 2db more output and would have gone over budget, hence the decision to go for six. the cab volume is slightly less than in the spec document (o.p. noted it is about 10.2 cu ft and that is closer than my back of the envelope quick calc). even at 'war volume' the required VA of the amp is only 350 which then gets spread over 6 drivers and together with the oversized ports (air velocity is under 10 m/s) there shouldn't be much compression if any.


**also big props to @mtg90 for finding this value driver and providing the initial experimentation and driver measurements. without those, this system wouldn't exist.
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post #15 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
on this one, the budget was very tight and the o.p. mentioned that a good chunk of the time will be spent on concert blu rays and other music.
he had plenty of space to work with, so we took advantage of it all. :-) i figured that in this case it was worth it to go for a little higher sensitivity speaker for upper/midbass performance. even with only 6mm coil overhang, six of those driver will produces over 123db on the low end, so not exactly a slouch for movies either (and the drivers have usable excursion past overhang, obviously). the large cabs and high sensitivity drivers are super efficient--about 100db/1w1m at 50hz before room gain (and that is with cabs tuned just under 20hz). this allowed use of the low cost amp. an additional 2 driver will only provide 2db more output and would have gone over budget, hence the decision to go for six. the cab volume is slightly less than in the spec document (o.p. noted it is about 10.2 cu ft and that is closer than my back of the envelope quick calc). even at 'war volume' the required VA of the amp is only 350 which then gets spread over 6 drivers and together with the oversized ports (air velocity is under 10 m/s) there shouldn't be much compression if any.


**also big props to @mtg90 for finding this value driver and providing the initial experimentation and driver measurements. without those, this system wouldn't exist.
LTD thanks for the great explanation! 123db on the low end will get your room moving and shaking in all the right ways.
Would you be able to share the max output graph for this system?
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post #16 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 06:34 AM
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http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...8-ohm--295-042

Would kind of perks would going to this driver have?
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post #17 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 07:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake515 View Post
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...8-ohm--295-042

Would kind of perks would going to this driver have?
Power handling, output, and excursion right off the bat I would assume.
Would yield better results at covering larger areas.

For modest sized HT setup, you might as well step into the UM-18 to get much better usable LFE output/extension below the tuning point of that PA driver.

But it's the application that determines which subwoofer driver is needed.
EX: I would rather have a UM-18 in my setup, but I would rather have that PA465S you mentioned in a gym, or party outside.

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Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post
I really love how this is probably the only site in existence that can 'see' how building 6 18" drivers, all in separate boxes, equates to a 'budget' build .

It's like ... go BIG, so you can STAY home !! Just say NO to $10 popcorn !!

Looks like a great build ! and great fun !!

<subscribed

Joseph
lol! thanks for subscribing.

its going to take some time as I'm finishing the basement concurrently with the build but I know it will be worth it.
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post #19 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jake515 View Post
The PA 460 seems really popular right now and for the price you can' t beat it.

Would going to the next model up at PE be worth the extra money?
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...8-ohm--295-042
Its a great question you ask Jake. It would put me well over the budget but it wouldn't be the first time haha

What would the biggest advatage be? I need to dig in a bit more and understand the difference between the two speakers.

If its primarily higher SPL I think I may have enough but am up for conversation on it. If its a sound quality issue that may be different. Here is modeled SPL LTD02 provided me for the design.



He mentioned the he will flatten it out with DSP down to around 16hz...
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post #20 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 09:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
Power handling, output, and excursion right off the bat I would assume.
Would yield better results at covering larger areas.

For modest sized HT setup, you might as well step into the UM-18 to get much better usable LFE output/extension below the tuning point of that PA driver.

But it's the application that determines which subwoofer driver is needed.
EX: I would rather have a UM-18 in my setup, but I would rather have that PA465S you mentioned in a gym, or party outside.
I appreciate your perspective on this. I need to consider this viewpoint as well...
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post #21 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 10:12 AM
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wrt above comparative narrative,

in the design stage of my custom dual driver VBSS,

from @LTD02 - this:I'm not really coming up any good idea for a cab that will fit in your space and really crush it from 40hz up. This is a pair of PA460 drivers in a 10 cubic footer tuned to 38hz. That should provide pretty decent performance from 40hz-100hz. This is with 1000 watts total. Each driver is only rated for 500 watts. 130db is pretty loud though. :-)

For the space I had, yeah, HE NAILED IT!

His other 2 designs I've built the SUBMAXIMUS and LOWARHORNS really crush that lower octave and below . . easily

In initial listening to standard "test" audio selections, while checking on driver displacement, 5 x 18"ers working in harmony , while non seemed to be working too hard, there was a ton more visceral feel, to say the least, so some load taken off the Fusion 15's, > bumped the xo from 40 to 80.
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post #22 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jake515 View Post
...
Would you be able to share the max output graph for this system?

the overhang on the driver is 6mm. using that as the excursion limit gives the black line.
discussions with mtg90 and driver measurement indicate that the useful excursion is somewhere around 9.5mm or possibly a little more. that gives the red line.
two pi space. no room gain. 6 subs.


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post #23 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 11:30 AM
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it was asked how this system would compare to some of the other drivers mention.


1w response of a handful of systems (at prices on p.e. at the moment)


6 x pa460 (red) $540
3 x pa465 (green) $660
2 x um18 (black) $558
2 x 460ho (blue) $524

all in the same cabs ~11cf tuned to ~17.5hz. i don't like the way the pa465 (green) is modeling, but ymmv.




max output at the usable excursion of the pa460, um18 (the um may have a hair more excursion left, but it is power limited at 2kw), 460ho, and xmax for the 465 (I've not seen this driver measured physically so i don't know how xmax was calculated).

anyway, the pa460 system gets away with a 3000dsp
the 460ho and um18 would need to step up to the 6000dsp or a pair of bridged 3000dsp if you want remote turn on and no thump without doing the internal relay mod to the 6000.


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post #24 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 11:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Hung and Vision thanks for the names! - taking them under consideration
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post #25 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the modeling LTD this is very helpful.
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post #26 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 01:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
it was asked how this system would compare to some of the other drivers mention.


1w response of a handful of systems (at prices on p.e. at the moment)


6 x pa460 (red) $540
3 x pa465 (green) $660
2 x um18 (black) $558
2 x 460ho (blue) $524

all in the same cabs ~11cf tuned to ~17.5hz. i don't like the way the pa465 (green) is modeling, but ymmv.

max output at the usable excursion of the pa460, um18 (the um may have a hair more excursion left, but it is power limited at 2kw), 460ho, and xmax for the 465 (I've not seen this driver measured physically so i don't know how xmax was calculated).

anyway, the pa460 system gets away with a 3000dsp
the 460ho and um18 would need to step up to the 6000dsp or a pair of bridged 3000dsp if you want remote turn on and no thump without doing the internal relay mod to the 6000.

Well, if your talking 6 drivers in a modest HT setting, I would assume you would make the UM-18s sealed.
But it all depends on application and user needs.

LTD, what if you modeled the pa465 at a tuning of 25-35hz? I was just looking at the parameters of that driver and figured it might perform better tuned closer to Fs?
Seems weird that Dayton would manufacture (being that it costs over twice as much - pa460 > pa465) a driver that basically performs the same as pa460 but with added power handling which isn't as exciting as it looks because it's 4 dB less sensitive.

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post #27 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 02:17 PM
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Well, if your talking 6 drivers in a modest HT setting, I would assume you would make the UM-18s sealed.
...

there are lots of ways to make bass. as you know, sealed is the least efficient, so it is a poor choice where space is available and budgets are tight. 6 x UM and the amps to power them is out of the budget here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post

LTD, what if you modeled the pa465 at a tuning of 25-35hz? I was just looking at the parameters of that driver and figured it might perform better tuned closer to Fs?

same problem, the driver is underdamped. the motor doesn't seem to have enough power to overcome the moving mass and the suspension stiffness. it might work for some applications, but I can't recommend it based on what I've seen so far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
Seems weird that Dayton would manufacture (being that it costs over twice as much - pa460 > pa465) a driver that basically performs the same as pa460 but with added power handling which isn't as exciting as it looks because it's 4 dB less sensitive.

the typical pro audio cab might be something around 7 cubic feet tuned to around 38hz. in such a cab, the underdamped response will give a 5db rise in spl around 50hz (97db 1w1m) which would bring it up about the same sensitivity as the 460, but with more xmax and more power handling. I don't think it would sound as good because of the falling top end, but for folks looking for a few more db from their sub, it may have a place.
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post #28 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 02:24 PM
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there are lots of ways to make bass. as you know, sealed is the least efficient, so it is a poor choice where space is available and budgets are tight. 6 x UM and the amps to power them is out of the budget here.

same problem, the driver is underdamped. the motor doesn't seem to have enough power to overcome the moving mass and the suspension stiffness. it might work for some applications, but I can't recommend it based on what I've seen so far.

the typical pro audio cab might be something around 7 cubic feet tuned to around 38hz. in such a cab, the underdamped response will give a 5db rise in spl around 50hz (97db 1w1m) which would bring it up about the same sensitivity as the 460, but with more xmax and more power handling. I don't think it would sound as good because of the falling top end, but for folks looking for a few more db from their sub, it may have a place.
Well, I assume that 6 pa465s would also be out of budget, but the OP was just asking about them.
And yes, I understand the cost of the amps would be more expensive (3000DSP > 6000DSP on the UM-18s)

Interesting driver (pa465) for double the price....Thanks for the comment.
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post #29 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 07:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Tomorrow I plan to install bracing. I guess that is a good time to seal the enclosure although I think it's very tight already. Is it a waste or should I seal joints? What product are you all using?
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post #30 of 234 Old 02-29-2016, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the overhang on the driver is 6mm. using that as the excursion limit gives the black line.
discussions with mtg90 and driver measurement indicate that the useful excursion is somewhere around 9.5mm or possibly a little more. that gives the red line.
two pi space. no room gain. 6 subs.


The numbers above 50hz are HUGE!
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