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post #901 of 969 Old 01-16-2017, 09:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Don't think youll have an issue with that much weight, assuming it is well braced.

I DO however like the thought process going on here:

"I love my 24's but I want some nearfield action"

No let's not just do an 18 or two.

"Im going for 4 more 18's
and rupture my spleen in the process"

Yes, I like the thought process completely. It is beastaudio approved
Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
agree, no issues with the enclosure rocking if it was around 24" high.
Have you a dual opposed design? takes rocking completely out.
Also, I believe you should go with UM-18s or a greater driver.
I wouldnt wait for the new HT18s if you're only adding 4 subs.

Im getting some somewhat conflicting advice....
Is 4 18's setup nearfield overkill or not??? lol

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post #902 of 969 Old 01-16-2017, 09:38 AM
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You want overkill. That is why you are asking; you want to be sure
But as to nearfield, it depends on how near the drivers are to your driver. SPL doubles each time you halve the distance to the speaker. If your 24's are just 8' feet away, you gain 18 db relative to the 24's just by reducing the nearfield distance to 1'. With 18 db effective gain I think you can reach overkill with less than 4 18's.
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post #903 of 969 Old 01-16-2017, 09:40 AM - Thread Starter
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So, I played with the dimensions a little, and squished it down....


This is about the smallest I can go and still have enough airspace for 4 drivers...






I am open to other suggestions if anyone thinks something else might work better?
I am going to use the Dayton Ultimax 18's...
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post #904 of 969 Old 01-16-2017, 08:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
Im getting some somewhat conflicting advice....
Is 4 18's setup nearfield overkill or not??? lol
What I mean is that the point of a nearfield setup is to greatly increase the tactile response. The SI24s are so powerful, that it's going to take multiple 18s to match that of a single SI24. Basically, 3 UM18s to surpass a single SI24.

The HT18s are not projected to be very high output, high power handling 18s and it's going to take more than 4 to give any real benefit worth the money. But that's where the budget 18s succeed, when using them in multiples to greatly increase sensitivity, etc.

4 of any 18 is a lot for most people, but when you already have 2 SI24s up front, well you just need better 18s. 4 UM18s is like adding another SI24 and then some.
If you wanted HT18s I would suggest getting those rear 4, and then 2 on each side of you.

I would also break down on what you're missing out on. If it's tactile response, 4 PA460s ported around 30hz might be something to look at. If you want more ULF/LFE reinforcement, probably those sealed 18s behind the seat with UM-18s, HST18, etc.

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post #905 of 969 Old 01-16-2017, 09:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
What I mean is that the point of a nearfield setup is to greatly increase the tactile response. The SI24s are so powerful, that it's going to take multiple 18s to match that of a single SI24. Basically, 3 UM18s to surpass a single SI24.

The HT18s are not projected to be very high output, high power handling 18s and it's going to take more than 4 to give any real benefit worth the money. But that's where the budget 18s succeed, when using them in multiples to greatly increase sensitivity, etc.

4 of any 18 is a lot for most people, but when you already have 2 SI24s up front, well you just need better 18s. 4 UM18s is like adding another SI24 and then some.
If you wanted HT18s I would suggest getting those rear 4, and then 2 on each side of you.

I would also break down on what you're missing out on. If it's tactile response, 4 PA460s ported around 30hz might be something to look at. If you want more ULF/LFE reinforcement, probably those sealed 18s behind the seat with UM-18s, HST18, etc.
Very well put in every aspect. Couldn't have said it better myself.

The point I like the most is the last paragraph. In Brandon P's theater he has two HST-18's immediately behind the first row of seating and those 18's have a big impact on tactile feel even though he has eight HT-18's sitting up front. The more affordable drivers surely have their place but the big boys that are capable of moving more air and also handle added EQ might be a better option.
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post #906 of 969 Old 01-16-2017, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
So, I played with the dimensions a little, and squished it down....


This is about the smallest I can go and still have enough airspace for 4 drivers...






I am open to other suggestions if anyone thinks something else might work better?
I am going to use the Dayton Ultimax 18's...
Do it. There's no such thing as overkill, as you can always turn it down...
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post #907 of 969 Old 01-17-2017, 06:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgtighe23 View Post
What I mean is that the point of a nearfield setup is to greatly increase the tactile response. The SI24s are so powerful, that it's going to take multiple 18s to match that of a single SI24. Basically, 3 UM18s to surpass a single SI24.

The HT18s are not projected to be very high output, high power handling 18s and it's going to take more than 4 to give any real benefit worth the money. But that's where the budget 18s succeed, when using them in multiples to greatly increase sensitivity, etc.

4 of any 18 is a lot for most people, but when you already have 2 SI24s up front, well you just need better 18s. 4 UM18s is like adding another SI24 and then some.
If you wanted HT18s I would suggest getting those rear 4, and then 2 on each side of you.

I would also break down on what you're missing out on. If it's tactile response, 4 PA460s ported around 30hz might be something to look at. If you want more ULF/LFE reinforcement, probably those sealed 18s behind the seat with UM-18s, HST18, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Very well put in every aspect. Couldn't have said it better myself.

The point I like the most is the last paragraph. In Brandon P's theater he has two HST-18's immediately behind the first row of seating and those 18's have a big impact on tactile feel even though he has eight HT-18's sitting up front. The more affordable drivers surely have their place but the big boys that are capable of moving more air and also handle added EQ might be a better option.
You both make some excellent points...
Maybe I need to sit down and re-think this a little...
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post #908 of 969 Old 01-17-2017, 07:14 AM
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If you're putting this box directly against the back of your seat, I'd consider going with some HE drivers. The PA460, in a box tuned to about 45-55hz, would be great for tactile response, especially in the midbass region. I'd also consider designing it such that you have the ability to plug a portion of the port to lower the tune to approximately 25-30hz at your convenience. This would allow you to eq a flat response down low with dsp. The tactile feel I get from my two PA460s tuned to 42hz (approximately) is quite nice. If you're going for the ULFE, then I'd go in the direction of some of the above suggestions.
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post #909 of 969 Old 01-17-2017, 11:06 PM
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Here's another way to look at it. Your room contributes a lot of the output at the lowest frequencies, so in terms of SPL capability, proximity doesn't matter all that much for ULF. Indeed, near-field placement may give inferior ULF performance vs. a rigid corner, for example. For mid bass frequencies, the room is less important and proximity matters. Mid bass can be a lot louder and cleaner with near-field placement. So in general, if you want more/better ULF, then you probably want to match the displacement capability that you already have. You may want to experiment, possibly by trialing one or both 24 close by to see how good the ULF is with the sub next to your seat vs. up front. If you want more mid-bass and punch, then you can get away with less displacement capability. Instead, go for drivers that are light and low Le but still big, like pro drivers. Build ported boxes to push the efficiency higher still. The right drivers will be able to hit harder with a lot less power than 24s up front require. IMO, near-field is better for mid-bass but not ULF. Other opinions vary.
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post #910 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I did some testing yesterday as I was stuck inside due to freezing rain...
I moved both of the chairs and sandwiched myself between the 24's to try some nearfield lovin'
Does it make any sense that there really wasn't any noticeable change to the bass? It doesn't seem to matter where in the room I move them either (nearfield, up-front, opposite corners ect.)
No matter where I put them or how close I was, they still felt like they were reaching out to grab and shake me to little pieces....
...and no, it wasn't fun trying to drag those 300lbs enclosures around in circles...


Anyone have any ideas? Am I at the limit for the room or something?
Is there a point where it simply isn't worth adding more bass???

I am looking for a project - but maybe more subs are not the way to go??

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post #911 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 08:31 AM
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post #912 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
How close was the driver to you back?

I tried something more like this, as my enclosures are 33" deep...
The drivers were firing less then 1' away from me, and less then 36" apart from each other....
Didn't seem a whole lot different then when they were in their usual locations under the screen...
Here is a very rough idea....
I guess I'm just confused... I keep reading about others adding nearfield subs and reporting that it made a big difference having a driver firing right at them up close and personal... but I don't get that effect with my 24's... or maybe I do only I don't need the 24's within inches to achieve the same sensation???
Im lost and could really use some help...

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post #913 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 11:13 AM
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There could have been some crazy cancellations from facing them together like that. Or you're close enough to them already that they're basically "nearfield"

Did you take a measurement from the different positions you tried?
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post #914 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 11:18 AM
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This is going to destroy my house...

Take one sub and put it with in 12" inches from the back of your chair not the side. Leave the other one up front. Run rew and generate a test tone then flip the phase of each sub so you know your all good then play a few movies like underworld awakening (the last gun fight in the movie). There's few others that I'm sure you know about anything with explosions and especially gun shots. Then you will know.
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post #915 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 11:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Take one sub and put it with in 12" inches from the back of your chair not the side. Leave the other one up front. Run rew and generate a test tone then flip the phase of each sub so you know your all good then play a few movies like underworld awakening (the last gun fight in the movie). There's few others that I'm sure you know about anything with explosions and especially gun shots. Then you will know.

I tried a similar setup, as well as a few others and they all had similar results... I eq'd every time I moved them...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
There could have been some crazy cancellations from facing them together like that. Or you're close enough to them already that they're basically "nearfield"

Did you take a measurement from the different positions you tried?

Maybe I don't notice the "nearfield sensation" due to other issues? I know that if I turn the dial up past -10MV my vision goes blurry and it gets difficult to breathe.... or is that the nearfield sensation you guys are talking about???
I'm confused....

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post #916 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
...my vision goes blurry and it gets difficult to breathe....
Jesus christ. I hope you're feeling it because if you need more than that you might destroy yourself along with your house.
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post #917 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
I know that if I turn the dial up past -10MV my vision goes blurry and it gets difficult to breathe........

But I want to add four 18s....... Gotta love AVS!
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post #918 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
...if I turn the dial up past -10MV my vision goes blurry and it gets difficult to breathe...

Those two gentlemen at your door are with the Army. They would like to buy your system.
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post #919 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 01:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
I tried a similar setup, as well as a few others and they all had similar results... I eq'd every time I moved them...




Maybe I don't notice the "nearfield sensation" due to other issues? I know that if I turn the dial up past -10MV my vision goes blurry and it gets difficult to breathe.... or is that the nearfield sensation you guys are talking about???
I'm confused....
If you have that much output then yes you have the nearfield sensation already.
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post #920 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 01:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
If you have that much output then yes you have the nearfield sensation already.

a ha... I see....
So more subs would be a waste of time then?


I never would have thought it possible given the installs some guys around here have....

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post #921 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 02:36 PM
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Wow at -10mv your vision gets blurry and it's difficult to breath. I've only had that feeling in my own car back in my car audio days.
Very cool!
Looks like I need to ditch my 4-18's and 4-15's nearfield (soon to be 6-15's) and just get 2-24's then. I have a ton of bass but not like your describing. What size is your room again and is it enclosed with a door. I wish someone around Chicago had 24's for me to hear. You have me thinking now about these subs...

It sounds like you already have enough bass anything more would damage your hearing and house more than what it's doing now.
If you do buy anything you might want to consider the HST stereo integrity's then instead of the ultimax with a clone amp or something as powerful so they can keep up with your 2-24's.
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post #922 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 03:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Wow at -10mv your vision gets blurry and it's difficult to breath. I've only had that feeling in my own car back in my car audio days.
Very cool!
Looks like I need to ditch my 4-18's and 4-15's nearfield (soon to be 6-15's) and just get 2-24's then. I have a ton of bass but not like your describing. What size is your room again and is it enclosed with a door. I wish someone around Chicago had 24's for me to hear. You have me thinking now about these subs...

It sounds like you already have enough bass anything more would damage your hearing and house more than what it's doing now.
If you do buy anything you might want to consider the HST stereo integrity's then instead of the ultimax with a clone amp or something as powerful so they can keep up with your 2-24's.
My room is 12x14x8... Suspended floors, sealed room...
It reminds me of my car audio days too
See, this is what confuses me.... You have an army of subs - and are planning to add more.... I have a pair of subs... and apparently I dont need anymore???
This is why I am lost.... How the hell can I possibly have enough bass with only 2 subs?
Something doesnt seem right to me.... but I have no freaking idea what it is..... do I have something screwed up with my setup maybe???
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post #923 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 03:19 PM
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By cone area you have effectively 3.5x 18" subs, in a sealed room barely over 1300 cubic feet on suspended floors. In a room that small it just shouldn't take much. Now, of course you CAN add more, but at high MV you're getting blurry vision and difficulty breathing... what more is there?
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post #924 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
My room is 12x14x8... Suspended floors, sealed room...
It reminds me of my car audio days too
See, this is what confuses me.... You have an army of subs - and are planning to add more.... I have a pair of subs... and apparently I dont need anymore???
This is why I am lost.... How the hell can I possibly have enough bass with only 2 subs?
Something doesnt seem right to me.... but I have no freaking idea what it is..... do I have something screwed up with my setup maybe???
It's because your room is tiny. You get an insane amount of room gain, like 20+ dB.
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post #925 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 03:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok... so
TinyRoom+GiantSubs=Done?

Is that how the math works out? I like it...

Sorry for wasting everyone's time....
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post #926 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 03:39 PM
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post #927 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 04:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Done.... No ones ever done on avs Moar!!!
Oh good... so I'm not crazy!
This is good to know...

So if more subs doesnt really make any sense...
...anyone have a suggestion for a project for me?

...or is chasing an apocalyptic level of bass a worthy exploit???
(Nobody needs to worry about my hearing - its been decimated by years of playing with vinyl in warehouses back during the 90's)

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post #928 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 04:10 PM
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post #929 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
Oh good... so I'm not crazy!

This is good to know...



So if more subs doesnt really make any sense...

...anyone have a suggestion for a project for me?





Lets keep the suggestions to a budget of +/- $3500 cdn


Now maybe 4k in the room. I know you like your speakers (Polk) maybe slowly start to upgrade to jbl like Rob has or something else? Atmos just one pair in the room. A nice htpc if you already don't have one. Something to control everything in your room from lights to projector.

Just a few ideas
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post #930 of 969 Old 01-18-2017, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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I could look at upgrading from the Polks... I'm just not sure why as I rarely push the dial past -15MV and they are nowhere near distorting (if they are, I don't notice it) at that level...
However...
I do love the looks of the F15's... I could try and figure out how to get a set shipped up here; I don't think DIYSG ships directly to Canada (I don't blame them - customs can be a pain sometimes)...
Maybe something for surrounds too???

...or just chase an apocalyptic level of bass???

I was going to hold off on the 4K PJ for a while, till prices fell a little...

Last edited by uniquepattern; 01-18-2017 at 04:36 PM.
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24" subwoofer , HS-24 , stereointegrity , XLS2502

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