HST18 power handling?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 23 Old 04-13-2016, 04:40 PM - Thread Starter
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HST18 power handling??

If you go to the Stereo Integrity website the HST18 has an rms of 1500watts. If you go to DataBass Ricci tested the sub with a bridged K10 ( 4Kwatts ) the only reason I am asking next week I will be ordering a clone FP14K and I would like to be able to set the Voltage Limiter and the db settings once I get the amp. FWIW I have a balanced miniDSP I think it has 4v output? My two subs are D1's and the amp will see 2 ohm per channel. I am not into bass heavy music mostly hard rock so even though I like it loud the amp is not going to have to play single digit info. Maybe on some movies but that is it.
Please help.
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post #2 of 23 Old 04-13-2016, 08:13 PM
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Set it up to deliver 2,000 watts RMS per driver. I am going to change the RMS wattage on the HST series very soon as 1,500 watts is too conservative [never thought I would say that].
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post #3 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 07:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Set it up to deliver 2,000 watts RMS per driver. I am going to change the RMS wattage on the HST series very soon as 1,500 watts is too conservative [never thought I would say that].
Nick does that hold true for the HST-15 as well? And is that driver exist anymore? I know you had a couple made but the website has never listed them.

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post #4 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 07:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the RMS rating but to figure out settings for the Clone I need Peak.
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post #5 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 12:52 PM
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DataBass proved that the HST-18 can handle brief amounts of 8-12kW above 40hz, and below that it is limited by excursion not power, at least as long as the signal lasts no longer than a single sine sweep.
I would think 90v RMS is pretty safe for that sub.

That said, you really should have bought 4 PA460's instead of the HST-18 if rock music is your goal.

I've heard LMS-18's, UXL-18's, MalX-21's and PA460's, for rock music the 460's win. I'm sure the HST-18 is no different.
If you want to watch a movie and generate an earthquake, then the 460 wouldn't be the best choice, the HST-18 would be better.
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post #6 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 12:56 PM
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He had a PA465, but sold it.

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post #7 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 01:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
DataBass proved that the HST-18 can handle brief amounts of 8-12kW above 40hz, and below that it is limited by excursion not power, at least as long as the signal lasts no longer than a single sine sweep.
I would think 90v RMS is pretty safe for that sub.

That said, you really should have bought 4 PA460's instead of the HST-18 if rock music is your goal.

I've heard LMS-18's, UXL-18's, MalX-21's and PA460's, for rock music the 460's win. I'm sure the HST-18 is no different.
If you want to watch a movie and generate an earthquake, then the 460 wouldn't be the best choice, the HST-18 would be better.
That is the problem I like them both hard rock is great but also watching a good movie like WOTW Hulk ETC. So whether or not the HST's are the best choice they are my only choice. I want to be able to blast but play it safe as well.
If I were to start over some of the purchases I made would have been different I still would have gotten the HST's but not the D1's the D2's would be a better choice. Instead of buying the nu3000dsp and the SI HT18D4 then selling them and getting the Crest and the HSTD1's it would have been the clone and the HSTD2's. Overall its not the best nor is it the worst I think once I get the clone I will be pretty happy.
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post #8 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 02:42 PM
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I doubt it Norm, you hang around here too much!

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post #9 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 03:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Look who's talking!!
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post #10 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwf477 View Post
I think once I get the clone I will be pretty happy.
I doubt it...
Don't get your hopes up too high.

The HT-18 wasn't good enough for you, the nu3k wasn't good enough for you, a crest wasn't good enough for you, the 465 wasn't good enough for you.
An HST with a FP14k clone will be no different...

I think part of the problem is that you want the output of like: 16 HST-18's and 8 FP14k's... but without actually building it and having such a thing sitting in the room.
At least you are getting a step closer... thus far, you just need to keep adding MORE.

HST-18 is basically a HT-18 with a bit more excursion, a bit more power handling and a bit more SQ. About ~4db better, but that is assuming you were pushing the HT-18 right up to it's breaking point (i.e. maximizing what you already had...)

You don't need a different TYPE of sub and amp, you need MORE subs and amps. THEN you will be HAPPY.
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post #11 of 23 Old 04-14-2016, 10:06 PM
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Nick does that hold true for the HST-15 as well? And is that driver exist anymore? I know you had a couple made but the website has never listed them.
Yes. Yes.

I simply have not listed the drivers. I can build HST-15's if someone wants them.
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post #12 of 23 Old 04-15-2016, 01:36 AM
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is 2200 watts @ 4 ohms ok for the hst 18?
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post #13 of 23 Old 04-15-2016, 02:52 AM - Thread Starter
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You don't need a different TYPE of sub and amp, you need MORE subs and amps. THEN you will be HAPPY.

If I go that route I need a bigger house w/ a basement and yes more subs amps etc. I also need to when the lottery. You are probably right but each step was an improvement so the clone should be a big improvement.
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post #14 of 23 Old 04-15-2016, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by kutlow View Post
is 2200 watts @ 4 ohms ok for the hst 18?
I called and spoke to Nick yesterday. I also explained my thoughts on the amp that was used for testing on the DataBass test ( 4000 x 2 ). On that test the HST was pushed pretty hard my point being Nick first said 2000w after talking to him 3000 is the most he suggests playing it safe 2500 which db wise is not much if any difference then 2000. So to answer your question 2200 is okay continuous or 4400peak. Hope that helps.
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post #15 of 23 Old 04-15-2016, 05:36 PM
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A 30a breaker limits you to something closer to 1170w x2 long-term (minutes) and 1500watts medium-term (seconds) and 4400watts burst (milliseconds).
A 20a breaker is 33% less power, a 15a breaker is 50% less power.
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post #16 of 23 Old 04-15-2016, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Its kind of funny most of us are always looking for more wattage and yes there are plenty that claim pretty amazing output figures but regardless no matter how big or beefy the amp depending on your electrical you will only get so much and that depends on what size circuit. Which leads me to another question if I were to switch my 120vac 20a circuit over to a 220vac 20a would it be an advantage?
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post #17 of 23 Old 04-15-2016, 07:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nwf477 View Post
I called and spoke to Nick yesterday. I also explained my thoughts on the amp that was used for testing on the DataBass test ( 4000 x 2 ). On that test the HST was pushed pretty hard my point being Nick first said 2000w after talking to him 3000 is the most he suggests playing it safe 2500 which db wise is not much if any difference then 2000. So to answer your question 2200 is okay continuous or 4400peak. Hope that helps.
If you're powering a pair of HST18s off a clone, I personally wouldn't bother setting the limiter on the amp. That's just me, but I also know when I'm pushing things too hard.
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post #18 of 23 Old 04-15-2016, 07:17 PM
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2000 watts into 2 ohms per channel is 63 volts rms * 1.414 for peak = 89.4 volts peak. that would be where the peak limiter would be set.
keep in mind that doesn't consider the excursion of the driver, just the power. in 5 cubic feet or less, the excursion should be ok at that power level.

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post #19 of 23 Old 04-17-2016, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by nwf477 View Post
If I were to switch my 120vac 20a circuit over to a 220vac 20a would it be an advantage?
You would because the real Gruppen is rated for 120V 30a and 240V 15a. The clone is probably similar.

By doubling the voltage you essentially halve the amperes through the romex, which will drastically lower the requirements on AWG thickness and how hot the wire in your walls will get when drawing crazy-power.

Other than that I wouldn't really expect the amplifier to perform much better.
The amplifiers power-supply should theoretically run cooler at double the voltage.

The max voltage is limited by the rating of the capacitors and transistors of the power supply and output transistors, which for the clone is 200V caps. So like a: +-400V swing for a pair of caps working in tandem.
The max burst power is only limited by the rating of the capacitors and the output transistors ability to survive said power, if the power-supply is equally beefy then the limit becomes the circuit breaker.

For amplifiers that have very few or weak or no capacitors, like the inukes, then the power-supply must bear the full weight of the load. Which may or may-not be a problem.

There is no free lunch with capacitors, they rob power to charge them, so having 50lbs worth of caps in the amp won't really help you beyond a certain point.
Zero-point energy tapping circuits have yet to be invented outside of Area51, so you can forget that idea!
Capacitors merely help to provide power in between the wallsockets sinewave peaks, they only need to last 1/120th of a second until the next 120V or 240V sinewave peak arrives.

5 to 50% of the power the amplifier draws from the wallsocket gets converted to heat. That power NEVER makes it to the subwoofer.

I'm not sure how efficient voicecoils are, but rather than cone movement I bet most of its power gets converted to heat as well.
Box air spring resistance, air mass and cone mass and coil mass static friction resistance, suspension and spider friction resistance, aerodynamic resistance. blaa blaa blaa
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post #20 of 23 Old 04-17-2016, 02:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks so it would be worth my while if nothing else the amp would not work as hard less heat as you put it when turning things up a few notches. ( not that I would do that ). By ordering the 220v version do you get the 15 or 20 amp plug? You wrote for a 240VAC 15A you need 14awg I have two 20A dedicated circuits both run on 12awg. My plan is to use 2 pole breaker get a 250V 20A socket get some red electrical tape for less than 20.00 not a bad upgrade.
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post #21 of 23 Old 04-17-2016, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by nwf477 View Post
You are probably right but each step was an improvement so the clone should be a big improvement.
With two sealed 21's playing a 20hz sinewave from both channels of my FP14k at the -10db lights I get ~100db @ ~9ft away. About ~7mm excursion, and my cheap volt meter says it's roughly ~26volts RMS.
10db louder would mean 82volts RMS and about 5x the excursion... from both subs.


With only 1 21" and 1 channel going I lose about 6db, which is what you would expect to happen...

You are using totally difference subs in a totally different room so none of this really means anything to you. You results will be completely different...
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post #22 of 23 Old 04-17-2016, 06:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
...That said, you really should have bought 4 PA460's instead of the HST-18 if rock music is your goal...
Why do you feel the PA460 is better for music? Please elaborate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
A 30a breaker limits you to something closer to 1170w x2 long-term (minutes) and 1500watts medium-term (seconds) and 4400watts burst (milliseconds).
A 20a breaker is 33% less power, a 15a breaker is 50% less power.
How about if you are powering the amps through a powerful power isolation transformer like the Richard Gray Powerhouse? How much watts can the system handle then?
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post #23 of 23 Old 04-18-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
How about if you are powering the amps through a powerful power isolation transformer like the Richard Gray Powerhouse? How much watts can the system handle then?
As I understand it the 120V clones have a 30a fuse, the 240V clones have a 15a fuse. So the answer is: it can't get any louder.
You can put a bigger breaker on it, but it's a waste of money/effort.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post
Why do you feel the PA460 is better for music? Please elaborate.
Because it is 98db/watt and it's impedance is optimized for getting-loud above 45hz with minimal-heating, it's like 8-60ohms > 40hz.

Unlike an LMS or UXL or HST which will demand +8kW to reach the same SPL and then melt after just 5 minutes of mid-bass because it is 3-5ohms > 40hz.

Heat is proportional to the square of the amperes flowing through the wire: I^2
That is why cones and amps get exponentially-hotter when you run them at 1-ohm instead of 8-ohms.

At 1-ohms they will be current-limited, at 8-ohms they will be voltage-limited.
Voltage doesn't cause heat, amperes do.
High Power lines are 10,000-500,000 volts, but they don't glow white hot because the amperes are very low.

The only reason the power company steps down the voltage from 500kV's to 120V is to keep people from dying when they walk within 2ft of a wallsocket. At 500kV you don't even have to touch the wire for it you kill you, you just have to get within a few feet of it. Hence why the poles are 30-100ft tall and hang off of 3-10 foot long glass insulators at the contact points.
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