2016 Diy Speaker/Sub GTG meet with a mini REW Class - Page 11 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #301 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 08:37 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Andy and Murphy, I tried what we had been discussion on double bass, sub + mains. I posted a graphs. It worked like a charm without me doing no adjustment. I would mention that folks trying this should proceed with caution. There are several systems for bass management in the various avr's so, thing may be handled different in different avr's.

Also, this should be done with large mains, I am thinking. Maybe at least a 10 in. woofer or two 8 in. woofers or larger to prevent speaker damage.

Thanks for the discussion. This should be something else in our bag of tricks. I can see doing this if you have one or two subs. There was a bump in the bass with music.
I'm glad this worked out for you. That bump might be addressable via eq. What does the spatially averaged response over a few seat areas look like, does the hump remain? Earl's approach is highly dependent on doing things 100% his way, which makes it tough to talk about. Like, he uses sealed mains, and there is a reason for that, and its actually kind of important. He also doesn't use mains with true full range capability. They can play with a full range signal without overloading because they have large very robust midbass drivers and sealed enclosures, but they are like 30db's down at 20hz. When Earl was pushed on this issue he quite literally snapped back that speakers incapable of handling this kind of approach are simply not good enough for a home theater.


Also, I hope nothing I said offended, I think we weren't having a very productive discussion on this. I'm happy to talk more about the physics of this at the meeting and the different scenarios. Earl has never written his approach up in a way that lends itself to use easily outside of his approach, meaning mains design, bass management approach, etc. He limits the variables, but in the real world, those variables are free floating.
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post #302 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kubbie View Post
I've had this Audio Technica AT-LP1240-USB sitting in my Amazon wish list for a few months, but with all the other things I have going on being a priority, I haven't even had much time to read up or research.

Any reason not to, or something else in the $400 range that I should look at?
If I do get it, I don't know the 1st thing about turntable set up. I would hate to waste time there Sunday.


I have lots of experience setting up and using turntables and I've owned a good 3 or 4 myself over the years (they don't really break so most people don't own that many in a lifetime, right?).


I actually bought my brother a similar AT turntable a number of years ago for something like $200.


http://www.lpgear.com/category/TURN.html
I love this place for pretty much anything, you might want to take a look. If nothing else they often review at some level the turntables. I like the Music Hall USB-1 as a better value than what you have chosen, but I'm sure what you chose is fine.


In general, for audiophile sound, I have personally found that mass loaded turntables (meaning those with massive platters and bearings) sound better than sprung tables with light weight platters. I like belt drive over direct drive unless the direct drive is done right. Direct drive done right is rare, unfortunately. Having said all that, the two parts that make a bigger difference than all else is the phono cartridge and the phono preamp. Also having said that, todays phono preamps are miles ahead of what was available not that long ago, IC's have gotten so much better sounding and so much quieter.


Vinyl is like religion, people are disturbingly for or against it. I have it because I grew up with it. Even though I'm a product of the 80's and 90's when cassettes and CD's were king, my dad had a huge collection of Vinyl and he didn't want me to own an expensive CD player. He bought me records because it was cheaper. I like it because its different and in some cases, the older recordings and transfers to vinyl have advantages over the modern digital transfers. There is no denying the technological superiority of modern high resolution digital, but its all theoretical. The reality is a lot of music today is transferred to vinyl with more dynamic range than to CD, even though the digital format has more dynamic range ability. It's all the dumb loudness wars.


Whatever you get, get a decent phono cartridge (doesn't need to be expensive, but there are huge differences within price points) and set it up. They are hugely finicky. People often massively under-estimate how important the cartridge setup is. Tiny differences in the alignment or balance can cause the bass to distort, the highs to distort, the music to skip over dynamic peaks, the channel balance to be off or even for there to be too little channel separation. I have protractors, digital and analogue scales, and years of experience setting up turntables and I'm still not an expert by any stretch. I know of cheap ways to equal the effect of expensive setup tools though. I have a $15 digital scale that is just as accurate as the $100 ones (as in the person who showed me has both and we compared results of his and mine to his more expensive scales, he's even a dealer and has access to almost whatever he wants, but likes these cheap scales). Protractors are available online for free, you just print it up and cut it out. They work well, I have an expensive cardboard one, the paper one is identical in every way.
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post #303 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 09:07 AM
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Ok so as for music, I have a lot of test material. I have the IASCA test cd from when I used to compete. It's older but I don't know that it matters. It has pristine digital tracks on the CD and the booklet tells you what to look for. In my last years of competing I actually also judged lower competitions so I learned how to judge and we used both home and car for reference. I have SACD's and DVD-A's, which I think the OPPO can play, right? I also have a bunch of high resolution recordings on my mac mini, I guess I could bring that if you want. There are also a lot of free high resolution recordings floating around.


Being totally honest, I hate most of that music though, the recordings are great quality, but the music sucks!!!! I love Jazz, Classical, Blues, Classic rock, Metal, R&B, Soul, Rap, you name it. There is often a reason these audiophile bands are not on major labels. There are exceptions of course. I can bring some of this if you like though. I have BB King Riding with the King on SACD, its a bright but very clean recording. I have a rolling stones SACD somewhere too, but I'm not sure, it might be packed away in the basement somewhere. It is not a great transfer of the stones, its too bright and the voices sound overly nasally in my opinion (On the positive side, if you can hear that, you have revealing speakers, if you can't, might suggest they aren't).


For Jazz I have some great recordings of classics done by great current guys. I have a really nice Newport Jazz CD that has some really good emotional recordings. The guys were really in a groove when they recorded. It's one of those really special recordings that only happens so often. I can look for that, could be good.
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post #304 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by andyc56 View Post
I'm not aware of any receiver that mixes the LFE with the mains in this way. There may be an oddball Emotiva pre-pro that does it.

I hope you're not getting the impression that I'm dissing Earl here. I haven't met him in person, but I like him from the online discussions I've had with him. He certainly knows a heck of a lot more about acoustics than I do. It's just that I agree with about 99 percent of what he says, not 100 percent.

BTW, there's an interesting discussion about some of these topics that you may not have read yet involving Earl, Todd Welti, myself, Derrick and a few others starting here.

I do recall this thread. I lurked but stayed out, it bothered Earl and there was nothing new going on there. A similar thread exists on DIYAudio that I think was better overall. Earl felt that "cheap" was misunderstood in that thread, that people were suggesting that going and buying a bunch of crappy low quality subwoofers was better than one good subwoofer because of the improved smoothness and were ultimately missing the real point. The thread has been dead for like 2 years though right? Earl still occasionally replies on DiyAudio but I think his health has been so so, either the Shoulder surgery or who knows, so he rarely seems to post. I find I can only talk to him via direct email or phone, nothing else is consistent.


So what makes you think receivers don't act this way with regard to LFE? I actually never tried it, but I had no reason to suspect that he was wrong about his assertion, or that it was unique to his pioneer receiver. For example, I do know that if you remove the center channel from the speaker setup, it does then mix in equal parts the center image to the L and R speakers. I've done this before to raise the center image and sometimes prefer this, especially with a lot of surround music (my center, while identical to my L and R speakers, is below the L and R because my screen is a SI Black Diamond and not acoustically transparent). It would make sense that if you turn off the subwoofer from the speaker setup, that it would remix the LFE channel to the L&R.


So I'm curious know about the double bass and how different receivers work. When I talked to Onkyo directly, they told me (possibly wrongly) that Double bass means that all of the bass from all channels is fed to the subwoofer and to any other speaker set to large. In other words, if I had 7 identical speakers set to large and a subwoofer set to 120hz. That all mains that were active and the subwoofers would get the bass (It wasn't cross mixing bass from mains to other mains though), that there would be intentional overlap so to speak. Earl looked at this as increasing the LF sources. Now my understanding is that if the bass was, for instance, in the left speaker and no other, then the subwoofer and left would both produce that bass. In a non-double bass scenario, whatever the crossover was for the mains is what separated it. if the bass contained content from 20-100hz, and the crossover was set at 80hz for the mains, then the left speaker handles the portion of that content that is 80-100hz, while the subwoofer handles below 80hz (and the only overlap is just what you have with the filters not being brick walls). Earl had once pointed out that the majority of movies and music actually have mono bass and often, quite intentionally, the bass content of a dynamic movie seen is found in all channels, so when you do this double bass, all the speakers tend to operate at the same time for that content. If there was a loud explosion and the sound engineer put at least some of that explosion into the mains, then they would overlap the subwoofer in that overlap area, regardless of the subwoofers crossover point. This gives then the needed effect of multiple LF sources.


It is my understanding that double bass does not mix the LFE channel into the mains, the only way to do that, according to what Earl told me, is to turn off the subwoofer and then use external DSP for bass management. I have no idea if that is true, I assumed it was. I never tested and I never asked Onkyo. I don't have sufficient DSP to do that so I've never even tried. I've actually always been curious because one problem I do have is that my rooms have always been small enough that my Schroeder frequency falls pretty high and I have evidence of discrete modes above 100hz but below 200hz. Just the right frequency to need some PEQ help, but outside the range of my subwoofers. The mains need to be EQed too since my subs cutout at 120hz. In a perfect world, I'd really like to add more midbass modules that operate up to 200hz and with DSP for the mains and the midbass modules so I can eq the signal to both. For example, right now I have a glitch that is clearly minimum phase around 150hz, and Audyssey doesn't do anything for it for some reason. It's a noticeable bump in the response that is there regardless of subwoofers being on or off or how they are setup, its probably due to the mains being too close to the rear wall and the room's dimensions (it perfectly matches a mode so I think I'm just exciting that mode). I've used a computer to feed it a signal massaged by Dirac and Dirac does fix the problem and to me at least, it does sound a lot better. I just can't use that with movies.
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post #305 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Well guys things are looking good again. I ran audessy in the room yesterday and finally had time this morning to hear it since I had to work a double shift yesterday through the night. So instead of getting some sleep this morning I pulled the mini riser out of the room worked on some 1099's and played some demo clips. The sound stage and surround is amazing with the new AVR. The bass is now back and seems louder than before. The Mike Tyson punch is sooooooo there in the back of the seats. There's so much energy in the room during these clips that's really intense to the body. I'm really looking forward to showing you guys what diy can do and produce. I made a video and will post it later tonight of the Nearfield box and the subs really moving. It's going to be a FUN gtg!
Mike
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post #306 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
well guys things are looking good again. I ran audessy in the room yesterday and finally had time this morning to hear it since i had to work a double shift yesterday through the night. So instead of getting some sleep this morning i pulled the mini riser out of the room worked on some 1099's and played some demo clips. The sound stage and surround is amazing with the new avr. The bass is now back and seems louder than before. The mike tyson punch is sooooooo there in the back of the seats. There's so much energy in the room during these clips that's really intense to the body. I'm really looking forward to showing you guys what diy can do and produce. I made a video and will post it later tonight of the nearfield box and the subs really moving. It's going to be a fun gtg!
Mike
sleep!!! Sleep!!!
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post #307 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 12:22 PM
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For what it's worth here is some measurements from my room. The lack of sub-20hz is well, I don't have much sub-20hz and the door was open when I took measurements. The dark blue line is the "money seat" and you can see some of the anomalies. These were taken in the middle of some eqing, so I did manage to smooth it out a bit more, but not so bad either. Red is a far right seat, very near a corner boundary.
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post #308 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 12:32 PM
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Well guys things are looking good again. I ran audessy in the room yesterday and finally had time this morning to hear it since I had to work a double shift yesterday through the night. So instead of getting some sleep this morning I pulled the mini riser out of the room worked on some 1099's and played some demo clips. The sound stage and surround is amazing with the new AVR. The bass is now back and seems louder than before. The Mike Tyson punch is sooooooo there in the back of the seats. There's so much energy in the room during these clips that's really intense to the body. I'm really looking forward to showing you guys what diy can do and produce. I made a video and will post it later tonight of the Nearfield box and the subs really moving. It's going to be a FUN gtg!
Mike
All the talk about the mini riser had me thinking would isolation feet help for my furniture since I don't use a riser. I will find out in a few days when Parts Express sends them. How many floor speakers will be at the meet. It is going to be busy with Jeff bringing the JTR sub, running thru speaker and blowing up a sub, lol.
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post #309 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 02:21 PM
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I do recall this thread. I lurked but stayed out, it bothered Earl and there was nothing new going on there. A similar thread exists on DIYAudio that I think was better overall. Earl felt that "cheap" was misunderstood in that thread, that people were suggesting that going and buying a bunch of crappy low quality subwoofers was better than one good subwoofer because of the improved smoothness and were ultimately missing the real point. The thread has been dead for like 2 years though right?
I didn't read the earlier part of the thread either. I gather a bunch of people got pretty nasty with him, so I avoided it for that reason. But it revived again in June of 2014 after having been dormant for 5 years. That's when Todd Welti joined in and some pretty interesting discussion took place. Yes, it's a couple of years old now.

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So what makes you think receivers don't act this way with regard to LFE? I actually never tried it, but I had no reason to suspect that he was wrong about his assertion, or that it was unique to his pioneer receiver.
You're right! I had to look up a Dolby document, and sure enough, they say that the LFE can be distributed to the mains in the case for which the AVR is configured for "subwoofer = none". I got confused because we were also talking about "LFE + Main" mode (double bass), which implies the presence of a sub.

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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
So I'm curious know about the double bass and how different receivers work. When I talked to Onkyo directly, they told me (possibly wrongly) that Double bass means that all of the bass from all channels is fed to the subwoofer and to any other speaker set to large. In other words, if I had 7 identical speakers set to large and a subwoofer set to 120hz. That all mains that were active and the subwoofers would get the bass (It wasn't cross mixing bass from mains to other mains though), that there would be intentional overlap so to speak. Earl looked at this as increasing the LF sources.
Yes. I look at it as the bass management acting as if mains were set to "small" (thus redirecting the bass to the subs via an LPF), but then the HPF on the mains is disabled, so that a full-range signal is passed to the mains.

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It is my understanding that double bass does not mix the LFE channel into the mains...
Yes, and that's exactly what got me confused in our earlier discussion. I thought you were referring to "LFE + Main" mode (double bass), but you were talking about what happens when the AVR is configured for "subwoofer = none".
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post #310 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 02:43 PM
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For what it's worth here is some measurements from my room. The lack of sub-20hz is well, I don't have much sub-20hz and the door was open when I took measurements. The dark blue line is the "money seat" and you can see some of the anomalies. These were taken in the middle of some eqing, so I did manage to smooth it out a bit more, but not so bad either. Red is a far right seat, very near a corner boundary.


Are you only getting 60dB at 24Hz there? I think you said you could get to 100dB at 20Hz with just your mains, correct? If output is not a concern, it works fine. I was targeting 115dB at 20Hz, which I'm getting from my subs, because my mains are simply not able to do that.
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Well guys things are looking good again. I ran audessy in the room yesterday and finally had time this morning to hear it since I had to work a double shift yesterday through the night. So instead of getting some sleep this morning I pulled the mini riser out of the room worked on some 1099's and played some demo clips. The sound stage and surround is amazing with the new AVR. The bass is now back and seems louder than before. The Mike Tyson punch is sooooooo there in the back of the seats. There's so much energy in the room during these clips that's really intense to the body. I'm really looking forward to showing you guys what diy can do and produce. I made a video and will post it later tonight of the Nearfield box and the subs really moving. It's going to be a FUN gtg!
Mike


Awesome - yeah, sometimes folks need to re-run the room correction. Glad it sounds good again!
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post #312 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 03:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you only getting 60dB at 24Hz there? I think you said you could get to 100dB at 20Hz with just your mains, correct? If output is not a concern, it works fine. I was targeting 115dB at 20Hz, which I'm getting from my subs, because my mains are simply not able to do that.


Those are just response measurements not peak output graphs. I can't take output measurements that loudly.

What I said was the driver wouldn't exceed X max at 20hz until 100db, not that I get that. That's with 800 watts and not relative to other tones. The rest of the system would be at near 120db which exceeds the max undistorted level of my mic I think. Anyway point is that wasn't meant to show max output. You usually take response measurements in the most highly linear range right?

I do not have 115dbs at 20hz, I think it's more like 105. Someday I'll get some big boy subs.
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post #314 of 808 Old 05-11-2016, 06:17 PM
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Hey guys here's a little video I took this afternoon on my phone of the nearfield subs going.
https://youtu.be/19eklG8CKhI
I really needed to get more light back there to see them move.
Interstellar would feel nice with the nearfield subs. Check out the Worm Hole scene.
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post #315 of 808 Old 05-12-2016, 04:58 AM
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Interstellar would feel nice with the nearfield subs. Check out the Worm Hole scene.
What about the server room scene in pulse, or the barrel roll in FoTP?
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post #316 of 808 Old 05-12-2016, 05:51 AM
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The entry scene when they are going onto the water planet in Interstellar is amazing for the nearfields. I can really feel the ship bouncing around with my setup. Yours should be really nice Mike during that.
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post #317 of 808 Old 05-12-2016, 02:20 PM
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What about the server room scene in pulse, or the barrel roll in FoTP?
Those are nice clips also. The Intestellar scene does not have the lowest bass but the scene is fairly long, I had to lower my TT's to keep them from over heating and shutting down. They can handle, EOT, Olympus Has Fallen and all the other heavy hitters without a problem. Now I have everything calibrated to go to reference playback without problems.
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post #318 of 808 Old 05-12-2016, 06:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Hi guys P.M.'s going out tonight to everyone with my info for next weekend the 22nd for the GTG. I'm going to have water, beer, pop and some dip's chips ect... there. At around 12:00 I'll order pizza. If you guys want to help out and bring finger food, dip what ever beer pop that would be a big help. As we stand there should be around 20-30 guys coming. I already had a few people offer to bring food and beer thank you please do that helps me out a lot!!!! If anyone wants to pitch in for pizza that would be great to. My room is ready to go for the day.
@corradizo @Cruzed2 @mtg90 @Raylon @brokeeF @murphy2112 @EndersShadow @JCJetta @mikeschmidt @derrickdj1 @dman918 @spotts29 @danmn1313 @ninjahifi @JeffParmanian @DocOrange88 @Kubbie @Mpoes12 @spieg @lizrussspike @Chad @shadyJ @mikebutny @holyindian

If I missed someone sorry please PM me!

The meet time again is 11am sharp with REW part starting then and will end at 6-6:30 pm

The guys who I talk to everyday you know where I live so I'll hold off sending my info to you since you already know were I live.
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post #319 of 808 Old 05-12-2016, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Hi guys P.M.'s going out tonight to everyone with my info for next weekend the 22nd for the GTG. I'm going to have water, beer, pop and some dip's chips ect... there. At around 12:00 I'll order pizza. If you guys want to help out and bring finger food, dip what ever beer pop that would be a big help. As we stand there should be around 20-30 guys coming. I already had a few people offer to bring food and beer thank you please do that helps me out a lot!!!! If anyone wants to pitch in for pizza that would be great to. My room is ready to go for the day.
@corradizo @Cruzed2 @mtg90 @Raylon @brokeeF @murphy2112 @EndersShadow @JCJetta @mikeschmidt @derrickdj1 @dman918 @spotts29 @danmn1313 @ninjahifi @JeffParmanian @DocOrange88 @Kubbie @Mpoes12 @spieg @lizrussspike @Chad @shadyJ @mikebutny @holyindian

If I missed someone sorry please PM me!

The meet time again is 11am sharp with REW part starting then and will end at 6-6:30 pm
I can bring beer, any preference other than cold? Lol

I'll definitely throw in for pizza as well.



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post #320 of 808 Old 05-12-2016, 06:57 PM - Thread Starter
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I can bring beer, any preference other than cold? Lol

I'll definitely throw in for pizza as well.



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Anything will work for beer Thanks dude!!!
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post #321 of 808 Old 05-12-2016, 08:06 PM
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I will throw in for some pizza and bring some cash to throw in to cover the costs of the snacks, etc. I will probably also bring a 12 pack of Diet MD as I tend to drink a LOT of that lol...
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post #322 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 03:26 AM
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I will bring some DEW for my drive and pitch in for some pizza/snacks as well! Sounds like this is going to be fun! All them subs and speakers....it is going to be like Christmas Day!
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post #323 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 03:45 AM
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Depending on how thirsty everyone is, we should have beer covered! I'm planning on bringing a variety of four cases.

Mike, should I bring a cooler?
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post #324 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 03:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
Those are nice clips also. The Intestellar scene does not have the lowest bass but the scene is fairly long, I had to lower my TT's to keep them from over heating and shutting down. They can handle, EOT, Olympus Has Fallen and all the other heavy hitters without a problem. Now I have everything calibrated to go to reference playback without problems.
Thanks derrickdj1 ,
I need to re-visit that one. I do remember when entering the black hole...there was a lot of shaking going on in the room.
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post #325 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 04:55 AM
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I will bring some desert snack, pop and pitchin' for pizza. I will most likely also bring my dolly since I 'll be bringing speakers. Not going to break my back, lol.
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post #326 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 05:34 AM
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Originally Posted by derrickdj1 View Post
I will bring some desert snack, pop and pitchin' for pizza. I will most likely also bring my dolly since I 'll be bringing speakers. Not going to break my back, lol.
Smart man... although I may offer to help load and unload speakers so I can burn off some of the pizza and snack calories lol...
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Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick
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post #327 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spieg View Post
Depending on how thirsty everyone is, we should have beer covered! I'm planning on bringing a variety of four cases.

Mike, should I bring a cooler?


Don't worry about a cooler for the beer have a big one plus a few other things to hold beer, pop, and water.

Thanks everyone for helping out!!!! Every time I start a thread for having one of these gtg meets I'm always worried about guys interested in coming lol. Five days into the first post of this thread the meet was full and was up to I think 26 or 27 guys. I have the room in the basement and I'm really excited for the day. Thanks again guys for helping out!
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post #328 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Don't worry about a cooler for the beer have a big one plus a few other things to hold beer, pop, and water.

Thanks everyone for helping out!!!! Every time I start a thread for having one of these gtg meets I'm always worried about guys interested in coming lol. Five days into the first post of this thread the meet was full and was up to I think 26 or 27 guys. I have the room in the basement and I'm really excited for the day. Thanks again guys for helping out!

Since I have lots of them (with 2 kids), I will make sure to bring all the bibs I have so we can keep the druel from hitting your carpet when we see all these speakers and then hear them.

I dont have ace bandages though for when our jaws separate from our heads and drop to the floor so someone else will have to bring those...
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Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick
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post #329 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 04:21 PM
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2016 Diy Speaker/Sub GTG meet with a mini REW Class and blowing up a 1260 sub!

I'll pitch in for pizza and might bring some snacks too.

One question: should I bring the Triton Two's or Triton One's? Which model would best fit the others in terms of classification? The Two's retail for $2,500/pr, while the One's are $5,000/pr.
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post #330 of 808 Old 05-13-2016, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
I'll pitch in for pizza and might bring some snacks too.

One question: should I bring the Triton Two's or Triton One's? Which model would best fit the others in terms of classification? The Two's retail for $2,500/pr, while the One's are $5,000/pr.
Bring whichever one is better. Likely the one that costs more $

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