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post #61 of 122 Old 06-20-2016, 06:27 AM
 
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Yeah I can see that. Depending how you look at it a 3 way can appear like a two way + MBM or SW but reality is they are the same thing.

If you go active XO you can use the existing passive as a starting out point guide and possibly tweak for even increased improvement.

The really big JBL uses a stacked mid woofers. Looks to be horn loaded (or pattern controlled). The top bottom config also matched vertical directivity better than the side by side method (like 1299/1099 uses). Personally I'd rather have a wider horizontal for lateral reflections and good horizontal off axis performance - and less vertical (rather than other way around). Otherwise a single woofer makes it a lot more simple- I doubt a single mid in a three way is going to be output limited for you.
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post #62 of 122 Old 06-20-2016, 09:28 AM
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I keep thinking about the Parham waveguide....



The waveguide on the VTX series has been extensively measured on the Lansing Heritage forum. I have been in contact with the guy running the measurements and it sounds like a really nice waveguide. It looks similar to the older PT series waveguides, but it is improved in ways that are demonstrated in measurements and listening.

Hmmmm!!!! I already have the 4 Pi crossovers that could be modified to provide passive XO for the HF/MF and then run active for the LF/MF transition. Only two channels of DSP required per speaker, which means a single dbx VENU360 would be sufficient. I already have 19 channels of amplification on hand.

This is exactly why I started this thread so early in the process, design is an iterative process. No true idea where I will end up, but I know it will be pretty awesome.

The two-way is still a nice option and is not eliminated from consideration by any means.

I endorse this idea.

Not sure if you can reconstitute the 4Pi crossover for what you want to do (hybrid). It's a different crossover all together. Meant for the JBL/Eminence and DE250 2-way system. Wayne does make a crossover for the midhorn and CD alone and it's called the 10Pi. Basically the midhorn is made into an enclosure that makes it "full range"-ish. I've thought about buying this crossover so I can simplify my system but.... ehh. I've already gone and done it all. No sense messing up what works.
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post #63 of 122 Old 06-20-2016, 02:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Yeah I can see that. Depending how you look at it a 3 way can appear like a two way + MBM or SW but reality is they are the same thing.

If you go active XO you can use the existing passive as a starting out point guide and possibly tweak for even increased improvement.

The really big JBL uses a stacked mid woofers. Looks to be horn loaded (or pattern controlled). The top bottom config also matched vertical directivity better than the side by side method (like 1299/1099 uses). Personally I'd rather have a wider horizontal for lateral reflections and good horizontal off axis performance - and less vertical (rather than other way around). Otherwise a single woofer makes it a lot more simple- I doubt a single mid in a three way is going to be output limited for you.
I agree that volume should not be a problem. Per Wayne Parham "The horn covers the 200Hz to 2kHz band and has 105dB/W/M sensitivity. Maximum power is 300 WRMS, so maximum SPL is over 125dB. Actual response depends on placement, but it is intended primarily as a midrange horn subsystem for three-way (and four-way) π cornerhorns, so corner placement is normal. In this application, the horn is smooth down to below 200Hz, almost to 150Hz."

I have two good corners now so I should be good. I just got the plans for an older Parham design (7 Pi -18) that I can build for under $400 using my existing components and adding the midhorn.

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post #64 of 122 Old 06-20-2016, 02:35 PM
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Just fyi, I get that kind of response without corner loading.

Since you're intending on using a midbass system anyway, I wouldn't concern myself too much about how low the midhorn will go, corner loaded or not.
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post #65 of 122 Old 06-20-2016, 09:43 PM
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If you haven't settled on anything yet, what about a custom build based around the PRX 535? I have two of the mid horns (guides) and from memory they were quite cheap. You can use the eminence 6.5"sealed mids from parts Express - that's what JBL use in the PRX cabinet. And you could use your Eminence CD drivers on top.....
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post #66 of 122 Old 06-21-2016, 10:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Just fyi, I get that kind of response without corner loading.

Since you're intending on using a midbass system anyway, I wouldn't concern myself too much about how low the midhorn will go, corner loaded or not.
That's great to hear! I can order the flat packs, driver, and blank crossover for less than $400. Seems like a solid plan.

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If you haven't settled on anything yet, what about a custom build based around the PRX 535? I have two of the mid horns (guides) and from memory they were quite cheap. You can use the eminence 6.5"sealed mids from parts Express - that's what JBL use in the PRX cabinet. And you could use your Eminence CD drivers on top.....
I have looked at that option, but believe I will go with the Parham Midhorn to get the ball rolling.

Due to the pricing of the required components I should be able to complete the mid horn this summer. By going passive XO I don't need to buy a DSP unit (leaning towards the dbx VENU360) at this time. Eventually would like to run passive between the MF/HF and active for the LF. The three in, six out dbx unit will then be capable of the entire LCR set.

First step will be to build the midhorn and see how they work with my existing 4 Pi speakers (obviously will pull the HF unit from the 4 Pi and put it on top the midhorn. Seems to easy......... I already have two 60 x 60 sheets of Baltic Birch ready to roll.

Wasn't planning on actually starting building so.something until next summer, but my attention deficit disorder makes waiting unbearable.

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post #67 of 122 Old 06-22-2016, 12:27 PM
 
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Have you made a list of design goals and priorities ?

And ranked them in importance ?

That might be a good idea before building or choosing because it always seems like so much of speaker design is give/take. You'd want the most of what is the most important to you I think. It would be beneficial I believe to organize and validate the parameters of the project.
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post #68 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Have you made a list of design goals and priorities ?

And ranked them in importance ?

That might be a good idea before building or choosing because it always seems like so much of speaker design is give/take. You'd want the most of what is the most important to you I think. It would be beneficial I believe to organize and validate the parameters of the project.
You know I have, I'm pretty obsessive about such things (by my compulsive side always tends to ratchet up my ADHD to get things rolling).

My biggest priority is high sound quality, I listen to music 2-3x more than I watch video. As such, I require much more than just the ability to play loud. Pure tone form the midrange is very important to me, but am unwilling to sacrifice accurate, we'll controlled bass and an extended high end (although at 50+ with years of exposure to automatic fire (M-16, SAW, etc) and occasional flash bang in training events has had an impact).

Constant directivity is a design goal. I am no expert, but my friend Wayne Parham is. Hard to argue with his expertise, it's built on solid engineering understanding and supported by peer reviewed publications (much of which is from Harmon). I know Wayne's personality has not always been well received here, but that doesn't mean his engineering prowess is tainted.

I bought my 4 Pi speakers with the intent of upgrading them to 7 Pi's when the time came. I sometimes get distracted by chasing the bright Shiney object. I am fearful that the increased upper directionality of the big JBL waveguide will drive me nuts over time.

For more info see: http://audioroundtable.com/forum/ind...ed=1&&start=10
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post #69 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 08:41 AM
 
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I can see that, it sounds like you really want an m2/LSR like waveguide Can't blame you there!

I guess finding the next closest thing DIY is what you are trying to do?
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post #70 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 09:47 AM
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Next Build - Planning Stage


http://www.fullcompass.com/prod/1331...AnOxoCNYTw_wcB
Add a closed back 6" midrange, compression driver of your choice (from your 4pi?)

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post #71 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 10:04 AM
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*shudders*

I .... think that would be a downgrade for Steve.
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post #72 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 11:03 AM
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Which part?


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post #73 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 11:31 AM
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The $40 Mackie combo horn thing you just posted.
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post #74 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 11:52 AM
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The horn is just a horn, if the dispersion and directivity will work for the application (90 x 40) why not load it with some drivers of your choice. The mackie crosses from 6" to 15" at 700 hz, but if you don't need extreme power handling, you could probably go a little lower.
There was talk about the parham midhorn, just throwing out an alternative.


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post #75 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I can see that, it sounds like you really want an m2/LSR like waveguide Can't blame you there!

I guess finding the next closest thing DIY is what you are trying to do?
The M2 waveguide is quite nice, does require a fair bit of DSP for the D2 CD to sound it's best (looks to require significantly less for the 4" diaphragm CD'S from JBL Pro). Looking at my space the cornerhorn will be nearly perfect as it has constant directivity from 200 Hz up, and fully horn loaded from 60 Hz or so. Wayne has spent a lot of time on the XO and has a level of expertise that I will never attain.

When completed I should have a pretty solid powercurve. I also have the plans for an 18" JBL 24xx driver based bass horn . That would be beastly to say the least, and is a future step when I buy new 18's for the 4645C enclosures (most likely the JBL 2269).

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The horn is just a horn, if the dispersion and directivity will work for the application (90 x 40) why not load it with some drivers of your choice. The mackie crosses from 6" to 15" at 700 hz, but if you don't need extreme power handling, you could probably go a little lower.
There was talk about the parham midhorn, just throwing out an alternative.


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This horn may be a solid performer, but I don't know that to be true and it would drive me nuts. I would also have to design and XO from scratch. I was thinking of taking this approach a few months ago, but the more I studied the more I realized I would rather replicate an existing design that best suits my needs.

The 7 Pi has been around since the 1980's and offers solid performance using drivers I already own (except the mid horn which calls for the Eminence Delta 10 or the JBL2212 [which is practically unobtainable]). Once I build with the Eminence driver I will then play around with the current crop of JBL Pro 10" drivers to see if any sound and/or measure better than the eminence. I will also likely try the Eminence Kappa lite 3010MB driver.

End goal is to have all JBL Pro drivers that are still readily available in case anyone else wants to build the finalized product. I will be making tons of measurements (both outdoor and indoor). I am thinking about talking to the Commanding Officer at work about using one of our anechoic chambers after hours. That may not be feasible as where I work is 100% externally funded and no way could I charge the time to any existing research program.

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post #76 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 05:44 PM
 
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It's not how much or how little DSP you need.

The d2/m2 spreads the highs better. A 4" CD is a laser beam.
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post #77 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 06:13 PM
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except the mid horn which calls for the Eminence Beta10
Beta? Are you sure? I thought it was the Delta. The Beta is a pretty weak motor.
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post #78 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 06:19 PM - Thread Starter
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You are correct, it's the delta. I should have looked at the plans again before posting.

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post #79 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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It's not how much or how little DSP you need.

The d2/m2 spreads the highs better. A 4" CD is a laser beam.
It makes a difference in the cost of the required processor. Although there is a good version for the miniDSP. The d2 is sure cheaper to purchase, hence cheaper for JBL to build.

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post #80 of 122 Old 06-23-2016, 06:23 PM
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^^ Good. I was concerned that you might order the wrong part by mistake. It's not like I've ever done that.
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post #81 of 122 Old 06-25-2016, 05:50 PM
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Was there talk about using a jbl 2242 in a horn? Like a jbl ASH6118?


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post #82 of 122 Old 06-25-2016, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Was there talk about using a jbl 2242 in a horn? Like a jbl ASH6118?


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There was talk about loading the bass bin (with the 2226 or the 2242) into the corners, which will force the radiation pattern to 90° all the way down to the Schroeder frequency. With the addition of the 90° midhorn and tweeter and appropriate crossover you have constant directivity through nearly the entire audio band.

The bass bin for the 2242 is obviously larger than the one for the 2226H. It is tuned to 30 hz, vice 38 Hz for the 2226. I now think I will first build the bass bin for the 2226 to eliminate the need to buy replacement sub drivers for my two 4645B cabinets. Eventually will replace with the bass bin sized and tuned for the 2242 as I am kinda nuts.

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post #83 of 122 Old 06-25-2016, 07:01 PM
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I was using a Qsc horn crossed to a 2242 around 300 hz, worked great.
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post #84 of 122 Old 06-25-2016, 07:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I freaking love my 4645B subs, the 4424 driver is such a perfect match to my 2226H's it's addictive.

Really nice design you have there. I bet they sound great.

Looks like I will soon be building a stock 7 Pi cornerhorn (JBL 2226 + Eminence Delta 10A + B&C DE250), with the potential to update to the 7 Pi-18 upon the acquisition of new Sub drivers.

Not the projected build when I started the thread, I blame @Scott Simonian for the radical change. Once I got the Parham midhorn on my mind it was allike over but the making of saw dust.


Thanks Scott!!!!
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post #85 of 122 Old 06-25-2016, 07:47 PM
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PT-K95MH


:-)


http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?19692-S-pose-there-was-a-125-200-Hz-JBL-Horn


polars here:


https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/AM4200_95.pdf


mid driver (cmcd!) here:


http://reconingspeakers.com/product/...lar-audax-eaw/


upgrade top driver here:


http://reconingspeakers.com/product/...iver-5004613x/


phase plug and some other parts would be required...but...if you want to keep it in the family. :-)


cmcd technote: https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttach...D_TechNote.pdf














Listen. It's All Good.

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post #86 of 122 Old 06-26-2016, 09:09 PM
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I freaking love my 4645B subs, the 4424 driver is such a perfect match to my 2226H's it's addictive.

Really nice design you have there. I bet they sound great.

Looks like I will soon be building a stock 7 Pi cornerhorn (JBL 2226 + Eminence Delta 10A + B&C DE250), with the potential to update to the 7 Pi-18 upon the acquisition of new Sub drivers.

Not the projected build when I started the thread, I blame @Scott Simonian for the radical change. Once I got the Parham midhorn on my mind it was allike over but the making of saw dust.


Thanks Scott!!!!
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PT-K95MH
I'd completely forgotten about those. I only wish I had a project to use them in.
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post #88 of 122 Old 06-27-2016, 03:38 PM - Thread Starter
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I have looked at these parts long and hard over the past 9 months. The waveguide is used in many different categories of JBL speakers (installation, tour, portable) and seems very nice.

I think I will stick with the 7 Pi design as I already have most of the components.

What I will be doing is trying out several 10" JBL Pro drivers over the next couple of years to see if I can find one that works as well as the Eminence Delta 10. I have 5 part numbers as of now. I have the Hornresp parameters and will feed in the JBL T/S parameters to narrow the field.

Will also replace the Eminence H290 horn and B&C DE250 with the JBL VTX waveguide and one of the 4" JBL compression drivers as time and funds allow.

Thanks for the suggestion, I was close to going with these parts a few months ago.

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post #89 of 122 Old 06-27-2016, 04:23 PM
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Wayne has extensively tested the midhorn with various drivers. I'd consult him about that before potentially wasting a lot of time and money trying to find "better" ones than the Eminence.

I know it's easy to fall into the "well....there gotta be something better than Eminence" and I'm sure there are but not really for this midhorn. It sound fantastic. Hear it then consider "upgrades". Just 'imho' about that.

The top horn part should be more straightforward. Definitely give alternatives a shot....once you've gone full active.
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post #90 of 122 Old 06-27-2016, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Good advice....I know the JBL 2012 works well but seem hard to find. I am about 8 yrs behind.

Once built I may just veg out and do nothing. Who knows.

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