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post #91 of 122 Old 06-27-2016, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
I have looked at these parts long and hard over the past 9 months. The waveguide is used in many different categories of JBL speakers (installation, tour, portable) and seems very nice.

I think I will stick with the 7 Pi design as I already have most of the components.

What I will be doing is trying out several 10" JBL Pro drivers over the next couple of years to see if I can find one that works as well as the Eminence Delta 10. I have 5 part numbers as of now. I have the Hornresp parameters and will feed in the JBL T/S parameters to narrow the field.

Will also replace the Eminence H290 horn and B&C DE250 with the JBL VTX waveguide and one of the 4" JBL compression drivers as time and funds allow.

Thanks for the suggestion, I was close to going with these parts a few months ago.

oh, my bad then. so many builds going on I can't recall who all has considered what. :-)

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post #92 of 122 Old 06-28-2016, 07:22 AM
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Once built I may just veg out and do nothing. Who knows.
I got 5 on it.

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post #93 of 122 Old 06-28-2016, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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oh, my bad then. so many builds going on I can't recall who all has considered what. :-)
I don't know how you keep them all straight, I have been known to post stuff in the wrong thread.

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post #94 of 122 Old 06-28-2016, 07:45 AM - Thread Starter
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I got 5 on it.
Is that 5 for or against me not upgrading?

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post #95 of 122 Old 06-28-2016, 08:06 AM
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Is that 5 for or against me not upgrading?
haha. $5 on you getting something built out completely and then getting complacent.... at least for a little while. Unless you screw it all up and it sounds like poo.
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post #96 of 122 Old 06-28-2016, 08:54 AM - Thread Starter
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You are probably right...

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post #97 of 122 Old 06-29-2016, 02:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Been looking at the Radian Beryllium CD's. The one inch horn throat models (such as the Radian 475BePB) should work on the 7 Pi waveguide. They are not JBL, but I don't think JBL has a 1" diameter beryllium option (and let's face it with all the firings at JBL they really are a different company than they were just a few short years ago).

For home usage I don't think the greater output capacity is terribly important, and with the midhorn they don't need to run down low (at least down low for a tweeter).

Upgrade path just got easier, and cheaper!!!!

http://www.usspeaker.com/radian%20index-1.htm

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post #98 of 122 Old 06-29-2016, 02:15 PM
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Are you planning to mate these other parts with Wayne's passive crossover? Or you going full active?
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post #99 of 122 Old 06-29-2016, 03:01 PM - Thread Starter
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At first passive with Wayne's XO. Once I start playing around with the design then will most likely have to go active. In a thread on the Pi speaker forum Wayne posted that the TAD beryllium CD was a drop in replacement with the current XO. He also stated it seemed likely that the Radian Beryllium CD's would also work as is, my have to tweak the L-pad section of the XO.

Who knows really. I am unlikely to do any serious mods until I move from the townhouse. The 7 Pi XO is the same as the 4 Pi for the HF, so I am buying two blank XO's to build the midhorn XO's. Will have independent input to each driver, but all are passive.

The point of this thread was to think out loud and gain perspective from the community. I do this process all the time at work when developing new funding streams. The iterative process can be messy, chaotic, and frustrating but it is a solid methodology.

I am ready to turn from planning to building. Once I place an order with Wayne the fun begins.
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post #100 of 122 Old 06-29-2016, 08:21 PM
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I got 5 on it.
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post #101 of 122 Old 06-30-2016, 06:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Now that it seems the design is somewhat set, I am attaching a tentative project timeline:





I think when coupled with my subs and surround speakers should be pretty awesome.


I recently picked up a vintage McIntosh Amp/Preamp to power the speakers when listening to two channel music (my primary utilization).





What we have here is a C27 Pre-Amp and a MC2105 Power Amp, both are in need of a good cleaning and will probably send to a McIntosh Service technician for revitalization.
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post #102 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Well, nothing is ever cast in stone.

Just ordered a Peavey VSX26 Crossover unit (used from Guitar Center). This is a 2x6 DSP unit that will serve as active XO/DSP.

Rationale for change: Cost and advantages of going active. This unit cost slightly less than the blank XO boards, inductors and capacitors to make the passive XO for the mid and low frequency unit.

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post #103 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 09:11 AM
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Oh snapples!
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post #104 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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I was just getting ready to PM you. Yeah, I am audio fluid.

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post #105 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 09:38 AM
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Okay man.

Get ready to fight the 'Battle of the Hissy Amp'.

Good luck, I mean it!
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post #106 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Okay man.

Get ready to fight the 'Battle of the Hissy Amp'.

Good luck, I mean it!
That is the challenge of high efficiency speakers when going active. Optimizing the gain structure is critical to stopping hiss issues (without overly reducing sensitivity that will in turn cause clipping somewhere in the chain.) No free lunch in audio.

I likely will do a hybrid approach ala JBL. Passive XO for MF and HF, with active transition for LF (and MF/LF transition). Basically the processor will see a 2 way speaker.

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post #107 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 01:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Just read through a bunch of reviews on the Peavey unit. It was a mixed bag, many liked it's sound quality but others complained about its noise with standard gain structuring.

I have no intentions of this being my end all be all DSP, but for $149.00 it seems like a good starting point. At least I know the noise can be mitigated, just have to be flexible in the process.

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post #108 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 03:44 PM
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Just read through a bunch of reviews on the Peavey unit. It was a mixed bag, many liked it's sound quality but others complained about its noise with standard gain structuring.

I have no intentions of this being my end all be all DSP, but for $149.00 it seems like a good starting point. At least I know the noise can be mitigated, just have to be flexible in the process.

my sense is that user error/ignorance is the problem, more often than not, when hiss is a problem in active systems. simply blaming "noisy devices" or "bad amps" is a lot easier than really understanding all of the issues involved in system noise. gain structure is critical (and that doesn't just mean maximizing output) as is keeping circulating currents (of all types, not just ground loops, but even leakage currents) out of the system. then there are consumer amps with no attenuators and high fixed gain, which together can damage s/n by more than 10db in just one step. L-pads and autoformers to the rescue...
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post #109 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 03:55 PM - Thread Starter
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my sense is that user error/ignorance is the problem, more often than not, when hiss is a problem in active systems. simply blaming "noisy devices" or "bad amps" is a lot easier than really understanding all of the issues involved in system noise. gain structure is critical (and that doesn't just mean maximizing output) as is keeping circulating currents (of all types, not just ground loops, but even leakage currents) out of the system. then there are consumer amps with no attenuators and high fixed gain, which together can damage s/n by more than 10db in just one step. L-pads and autoformers to the rescue...
True!

The noise floor of the unit is -107dB. That's pretty good.

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post #110 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 04:54 PM
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peavey actually has a decent bit. you may be familiar with the issues, so consider this a "for posterity" post. :-)


https://assets.peavey.com/literature...00420060_7.pdf


the manual indicates the input sensitivity is selectable, but it appears to be software based. that might be a weak point.


input sensitivity is +24dbu, which is about 12 volts, so that may be what is required to maximize s/n on the input.
any less than that may cause a reduction in s/n. it is unclear if the input software attenuator reduces s/n in -10dbv mode. my guess is since it is done in software, s/n would be lost. so coming in with a 2v signal, for example, would lose about 13db s/n or so right off the bat.


output is also +24dbu, so that may be what is required to maximize s/n on the output.
any less than that may cause a reduction in s/n.


those are VERY hot signals relative to what most folks are use to working with. some consumer amps without gain controls may have input sensitivity of 1v, so that means coming in 12x too hot, which means the signal would have to be reduced by about 23db or so (which if done digitally kills 23db of s/n). whereas an amp with a lower gain (higher input sensitivity) and an analog attenuator could run with the hot signal and preserve the s/n ratio (not lose the 23db).


so with just two mis-steps, s/n could drop 36db or more. next thing 105db becomes 69db and on a horn with 109db 1w1m sensitivity, that could be 60db of noise coming out of the horn by inserting the device even though nothing is wrong with the device!
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post #111 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 05:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Very useful information....will definitely have my work cut out for me. I don't think I will be running my McIntosh amp on the horns, probably on the bass bin (JBL 2226H).

From the document:
Amplifier gain amplifies both the signal and quantization noise produced by the VSX 26. Attenuating the signal via the VSX's output controls only corrects the signal portion of the noise. To obtain the best case signal to noise ratio, two things must be done. The VSX's channel output should be at 0.0 dB (the default setting) and the signal applied to the amplifier must be attenuated so that the
full-scale output of the VSX matches the full scale output of the amplifier.

The formula is:
AMPLIFIER ATTENUATION(db) = AMPLIFIER SENSITIVITY(dbu) - 24(dbu)

Example: Crown XLS1500 - 1.4 Vrms [~5.25 dBu] requires 18.75 dB attenuation.
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post #112 of 122 Old 07-02-2016, 05:56 PM
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NO ......2242's for the bass bins. LOL I will just be following along ...
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post #113 of 122 Old 07-03-2016, 06:39 AM
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I had a MC-2105 paired with a MX-115 a few years ago, a very smooth combination. If you're looking for any maintenance, check out Audioclassics in upstate NY.
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post #114 of 122 Old 07-03-2016, 06:50 AM - Thread Starter
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NO ......2242's for the bass bins. LOL I will just be following along ...
I know...I have the plans for the 18" bass bin, but aesthetically it just doesn't look as nice as the 15" bass bin. But, I have the twin 2242's to pick up the low end from the 7 Pi's.

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I had a MC-2105 paired with a MX-115 a few years ago, a very smooth combination. If you're looking for any maintenance, check out Audioclassics in upstate NY.
That is where my friend I picked them up from bought them. I think they would be the natural place for me to work with for maintenance. At their age may need some new components to be at peak performance.

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post #115 of 122 Old 07-09-2016, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Well.....

I showed my wife my design and she did not like the looks of the 7 Pi at all, hated the stacked component look. So, I showed her an older design - dimensions based on the JBL Pro 4345 (except taller to account for the height of the Midhorn vie an 8" mid driver). She much preferred the enclosed design.

The port location is from the JBL design (bottom of the three original ports) but placed on both sides vice all on one. Going with two ports vice three as the 2242H is not as potent of low end driver as the 2245 driver. Final volume will be 9 cu ft (net) tuned to 32 Hz per replicating the 4345. As I am using all different drivers this is obviously not a clone build, and I am calling it the 1810 Monitor. WIll continue to use the 7 Pi XO for the HF and MF (not much to the MF as its a pseudo 1st Order Butterworth). Plan to transition the low/mid at 250 Hz (if supported in room by measurements, if not will adjust with DSP [man, DSP is so NICE!!!!!]), with a 1st order slope.



Note the 45 degree angled cabinet, which will allow me to corner load for constant directivity as designed by Wayne.

I received the Peavey DSP unit early this week, it looks very nice and should be more than sufficient.
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post #116 of 122 Old 07-09-2016, 09:24 AM - Thread Starter
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NO ......2242's for the bass bins. LOL I will just be following along ...
u win!!!!!! Ha Ha, funny how things always evolve with my builds, must be my ADHD.
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post #117 of 122 Old 07-17-2016, 02:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Thumbs up

Looks like the building will commence soon:

Pi Speakers
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: xxx
Detailed Invoice: https://www.pispeakers.com/xxx
Date Ordered: Sunday 17 July, 2016

Products
------------------------------------------------------
2 x Midhorn flat pack kit () = $330.00
Midrange driver Eminence Delta 10
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: $330.00
United Parcel Service (UPS Ground): $56.04
Total: $386.04

Shipping Address
-----------------------------------

Let the adventure begin, build is being documented in the following thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ld-thread.html

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post #118 of 122 Old 10-16-2016, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
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Looks like the building will commence soon:

Pi Speakers
------------------------------------------------------
Order Number: xxx
Detailed Invoice: https://www.pispeakers.com/xxx
Date Ordered: Sunday 17 July, 2016

Products
------------------------------------------------------
2 x Midhorn flat pack kit () = $330.00
Midrange driver Eminence Delta 10
------------------------------------------------------
Sub-Total: $330.00
United Parcel Service (UPS Ground): $56.04
Total: $386.04

Shipping Address
-----------------------------------

Let the adventure begin, build is being documented in the following thread: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ld-thread.html
NWCgrad, where are you at with this? Any updates?
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post #119 of 122 Old 10-17-2016, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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The enclosure is nearly complete, just need to router the edges, add a second layer of baffles to front and back, run the internal wiring, and finally install the drivers and start tweaking.

The link for the build thread has a lot of progress pictures.

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post #120 of 122 Old 10-17-2016, 09:39 AM
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NWCgrad, where are you at with this? Any updates?
Lots of updates.

This is the pre-planning thread. The actual progress/build thread was in the post you just quoted.
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