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post #31 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 05:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I figured it out one of the channels on the amp was set to bridge mode.

Wow these speakers are truly amazing at -15 blood starts trickling from my ears and its clean loud even at reference with ear plugs. The highs are perfect not annoying or ear piercing at all. Just plain loud.

I'm keeping it xoed at 60hz for it seem best even though my Orbit Shifter is way capable above 100hz.

What are you guys suggestion on XO or rather what are other F-15 owners XOed at?
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post #32 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 06:17 AM - Thread Starter
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post #33 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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I got to say wow again I got em dialed in and paired with my Orbit Shifter it's giving me chills it's that good. A match made in heaven. I can't thank mtg90 and Erich enough. Saved me a lot of cash and gave me exactly what I was looking for.
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post #34 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I figured it out one of the channels on the amp was set to bridge mode.

Wow these speakers are truly amazing at -15 blood starts trickling from my ears and its clean loud even at reference with ear plugs. The highs are perfect not annoying or ear piercing at all. Just plain loud.

I'm keeping it xoed at 60hz for it seem best even though my Orbit Shifter is way capable above 100hz.

What are you guys suggestion on XO or rather what are other F-15 owners XOed at?
Make sure you've properly calibrated the levels. At -15MV, it shouldn't be that loud. I've occasionally cranked them to +10 and have hit 114db peaks on the mains alone (loud, but no where near painful). Since your OS is nearfield, play around with the XO. I have mine XO'd at 100hz with 8 x ported 18's
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post #35 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 08:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I will play with the XO some more. I set the gain on the amp so i didnt see clip lights at reference that may still be a too high. I am using a berhinger NU6000. I am really happy with the amp. Volume at -10 and i stop the music no hiss whatsoever and i put my ear right up to the tweeter. I am using mogami quad xlr cables so that probally helps the noise floor.
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post #36 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
I will play with the XO some more. I set the gain on the amp so i didnt see clip lights at reference that may still be a too high. I am using a berhinger NU6000. I am really happy with the amp. Volume at -10 and i stop the music no hiss whatsoever and i put my ear right up to the tweeter. I am using mogami quad xlr cables so that probally helps the noise floor.
Yes, that amp with Mogami or my Canare xlr cables is dead silent! I have the gain on all my channels at the half way mark, including the sub, it just worked out that way for me. I like setting the trims near zero but the sub I keep at -10dB to avoid clipping the input of the LFE channel.

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post #37 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 08:48 AM
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Seriously Matt, everyone liked their sound. I don't think they sounded laid back in the slightest. In fact, if they were mine, I'd probably pad and tilt their response further.
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post #38 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
Make sure you've properly calibrated the levels. At -15MV, it shouldn't be that loud. I've occasionally cranked them to +10 and have hit 114db peaks on the mains alone (loud, but no where near painful). Since your OS is nearfield, play around with the XO. I have mine XO'd at 100hz with 8 x ported 18's

I can't imagine how this is not painfully loud. My goodness. 114db's at the listening position? A full range signal that loud is way beyond reference and painfully dangerously loud. I was doing some experiments to see how loud my speakers would go and was hitting similar levels and just couldn't imagine anyone listening at those levels for any length of time.
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post #39 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 08:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Playing these guys near reference the tweeters are not to bright at all. Hurting your ears loud now that is another story. I think he Matt did an awsome job. I wish i could have heard the previous crossover before i used the updated design so i could give a comparision.
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post #40 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 10:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
I can't imagine how this is not painfully loud. My goodness. 114db's at the listening position? A full range signal that loud is way beyond reference and painfully dangerously loud. I was doing some experiments to see how loud my speakers would go and was hitting similar levels and just couldn't imagine anyone listening at those levels for any length of time.
I was up to 118db at MLP with ear plugs. It is not pleasant.
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post #41 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 10:41 AM
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While there is no denying that a speaker with a brighter disposition is going to be more painful at such levels, the reality is that is so loud that even a warm laid back speaker will be unpleasant at such volumes. I hope people don't see this and think we sit around listening at this level and they should too, or more to the point, I hope nobody is actually listening at those levels.


I know this comment will fall on deaf ears, but I was for a few years involved with IDBL and IASCA competitions with sponsorship and the whole deal. I won a lot of competitions even placing in the top 20 in nationals more than once, in fact top 10 once. I had access to and listened to car systems capable of SPL levels in excess of 150db's on a routine basis (this was 1999-2001) and at least one system capable of more than 165 db's (at this time the all out record was high 60's to low 170's). I was stupid and often did not use hearing protection when I should, but amazingly walked away with little to no long term hearing damage from what we could tell. I then had an opportunity to participate in some double blind listening tests that involved testing our hearing and discernment for accuracy and was found to have "super" hearing. Basically within a set valued range, I was able to discern differences in frequency, level, and phase to a greater degree than the average population. Now Fast forward, I started to notice some issues so I had my hearing tested every year using a standard and extended battery of tests. I'm losing hearing above 15khz at this point at a faster than average pace, most likely due to my past and this hobby. I am 34 years old and my high frequency hearing above 10khz is closer to that of a 40 year old, and above 15khz is more akin to what they might expect from a 50 year old (Anything that high isn't really standardized and the tests are only so reliable, so take these age comparisons with a grain of salt). The point is, we really need to be careful, reference levels are dangerously loud, but given that they are only for brief bursts, not a big deal. Exceeding those causes the RMS level to now approach long term danger and is really not a good idea. Testing with ear plugs once in a while, probably ok, just straight up listening at +10 DB to reference, EEK! At least try to remember that I'm 34 and already losing some hearing because of that.
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post #42 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 10:46 AM
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Yeah, the loudest I will play is 100-105 dB with music. Movies are brief peaks around 105 dBs which is fine for me. The bass is a different story though. I bet most people who play their movies at reference have certain frequencies over reference is the response is not flat and why 0 MV calibrated for reference seems too loud. If you have some irregularities in the response the highest peak should be set to 105 dB and reference should be tolerable for a movie. Nothing should peak over 105 dB during a movie from the speakers. I let the bass get at least 10-20 dB hot under 20hz.

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post #43 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 11:01 AM - Thread Starter
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@Mpoes12 , i totally agree and thanks for bringing that up. I was thinking the same thing. I like loud music and movies but I also want to enjoy those things for years to come. I have a good db meter i bought it just for that reason so i can guage how loud I am listening. The set up i have now can easily cause hearing damage.

At what db level does hearing damage occur? I assume it is also dependant on length of exposure as well.
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post #44 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 11:08 AM
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The speakers are so clear it is really difficult to tell how loud you are listening to them, Then leave the room and you realize, dam its loud in there lol .Gotta love it!
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post #45 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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I know it is impressive. I gound a good chart on db levels and hearing damage good info.


http://dangerousdecibels.org/educati...me-guidelines/

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post #46 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 12:10 PM
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@Mpoes12 and others
: I am 34 years old and my high frequency hearing above 10khz is closer to that of a 40 year old,

I'm twice that and will tell you now, get ready for it

At audiocheck.net you can pick the freq to hear/download . . .
my ears stop at about 6.5K but the constant low ringing never does . . .
they also have a hearing test

the early 70's concerts in Berlin: Deep purple, Hendricks (sp?), McCartney, The Who, Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, Humble Pie, Santana and others

yeah, probably

but the F15's > sweet and clear

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post #47 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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I think the crossover at 90hz sounds the best with the Orbit Shifter LFU.
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post #48 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
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Yeah, the loudest I will play is 100-105 dB with music. Movies are brief peaks around 105 dBs which is fine for me. The bass is a different story though. I bet most people who play their movies at reference have certain frequencies over reference is the response is not flat and why 0 MV calibrated for reference seems too loud. If you have some irregularities in the response the highest peak should be set to 105 dB and reference should be tolerable for a movie. Nothing should peak over 105 dB during a movie from the speakers. I let the bass get at least 10-20 dB hot under 20hz.


Reference levels establish 105 db as the non-LFE peak level, but LFE levels can be 110-115, but....for some reason people stopped following these standards so there are some LFE channel mixes that exceed that. Low frequency hearing damage is a bit different from higher frequencies, the levels can safely be higher, but I've been told that this thinking might be changing.
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post #49 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 12:53 PM
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@Mpoes12 and others
: I am 34 years old and my high frequency hearing above 10khz is closer to that of a 40 year old,

I'm twice that and will tell you now, get ready for it

At audiocheck.net you can pick the freq to hear/download . . .
my ears stop at about 6.5K but the constant low ringing never does . . .
they also have a hearing test

the early 70's concerts in Berlin: Deep purple, Hendricks (sp?), McCartney, The Who, Pink Floyd, Frank Zappa, Humble Pie, Santana and others

yeah, probably

but the F15's > sweet and clear

Tinnitus is never fun! You are my dad's age and many of those aging rockers are struggling with this now. I've attended many a concert with my family, I have to say, I think groups like the Rolling Stones like it louder than any club or modern pop band I've been to. I saw the Stones in Syracuse NY and OMG was it loud. I've also gone to some Blues shows in small venues where the setup was more fit for a venue about 5 times larger, again, painfully loud.


Just something to keep in mind, the online hearing checkers have no ability to check if your headphones and soundcard have a flat response. I kept getting bad results using that website and figured out it was a mix of my headphones and some soundcard settings I didn't realize were on. I used uHear app and the stock apple headphones for a home check, it only goes out to the standard range, but it matched nearly perfectly the results I got from the audiologist. For Audiocheck, I did find that again, using the apple headphones worked the best. Not sure why, but my high end headphones were either more rolled off or I was just having more issues with them and these tests. Certainly don't do these tests with speakers, they aren't valid.
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post #50 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 01:56 PM
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I was up to 118db at MLP with ear plugs. It is not pleasant.
It is very pleasant when you have subs running at around 140db alongside

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post #51 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 01:59 PM
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I can't imagine how this is not painfully loud. My goodness. 114db's at the listening position? A full range signal that loud is way beyond reference and painfully dangerously loud. I was doing some experiments to see how loud my speakers would go and was hitting similar levels and just couldn't imagine anyone listening at those levels for any length of time.
Don't get me wrong, it's very loud. You literally have to yell at the person beside you for their attention. I rarely ever listen that loud (typical movie clips, 10-15sec) or up to 30secs for a passage in a song. In comparison, I had Klipsch RF7's and RF82ii's speakers that I couldn't stand at 95db peaks. It's a testament how great the F15's are. Even at very subdued volumes, they sound great... and when opened up, it's magic, especially with 130db+ of bass.
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post #52 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Another this I can attest to is the stereo imaging with these is amazing. You could get easily get away with no center channel. It is so good that i have to get up and check my center to make sure it's not on because it sounds like the sound is coming from it. Or acually right above it between two LR's and it is wide. Big ol' sweet spot. I also have the speakers toed in you can see in my pic above.
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post #53 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 04:32 PM - Thread Starter
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These speakers could hold their own with pair of JBL M2's. And those are $20,000 a pair.
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post #54 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 08:37 PM - Thread Starter
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XT32 set my "small" F15's V2 xo @40

interested to hear what the port/xo mod may do

find and read the article about toe-in for seos horns wrt broadening the sweet spot, also by @mtg90 , iirc

and good looking work. too , congrats
YPAO set my speakers to large. I set them to small and right now I'm XOing at 90hz and so far that is my favorite. oh yea toe in. Sweet spot is huge
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post #55 of 95 Old 06-03-2016, 08:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
Make sure you've properly calibrated the levels. At -15MV, it shouldn't be that loud. I've occasionally cranked them to +10 and have hit 114db peaks on the mains alone (loud, but no where near painful). Since your OS is nearfield, play around with the XO. I have mine XO'd at 100hz with 8 x ported 18's
I lowered the amp down to 1/2 gain it is a lot better. I hit about 105db with mains when the bass hits 116-118db at reference. I do like the crossover higher 90hz seems good for me
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post #56 of 95 Old 06-04-2016, 01:45 AM
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I watched WOTW for 2 hours @ 10db over THX.
An average of ~95db with peaks up to ~125db @ the seats.
Not even a hint of strain, the speakers and subs are good for more.

It was totally enjoyable, the bass was not loud at all (I WANT MORE!), but the glass breaking and tanks were LOUD AS HELL! With 7 full-sized SEOS's I definitely don't need any more treble in this room LOL!

This was with no HzHorn's activated too.
I can't wait to add more power and subs to my system, get some more bass up in this hoe. NEVER ENOUGH ULF!
Right now I'm only 40% done the amplifier upgrades. The CA-30 did not go as planned, time for more FP14k's!


This was the best part in the whole movie IMO. The pod rise scene is also epic (of course!)

As for hearing. Yeah, I too have the hearing of someone rated 10 years older. (YAY...)
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post #57 of 95 Old 06-04-2016, 01:25 PM
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None of this shocks me in the slightest. I told Matt when I met him that this particular speaker has long been my favorite affordable DIY design. Earl Geddes totally sold me on his brand of kook aid. His published and unpublished research, his decades of professional experience, and that of many of the top acoustical engineers in the world had all figured out that a speaker with a controlled dispersion that falls off to the sides smoothly, relatively narrow directivity, and pattern control down to at least 1000hz gives a speaker that sounds the beat. Add to that a need for high output, high efficiency, and low distortion and it becomes clear that pro drivers and horns are great. But horns aren't great, they typically have intentional sources of diffraction that causes harshness in the response. The advent of the waveguide for this purpose removed this source of diffraction and lowering the harshness factor majorly. Earl went on to say that his models show the oblate spheroid as having the best overall performance for this purpose. As far as I'm concerned this lead to the development of the SEOS waveguide, basically a desire to have a waveguide that embodies what Earls models found, but with a more narrow vertical directivity and at a much more affordable price. Matt then designed a speaker that is in many ways a much more affordable version of Earls top of the line speaker offering low down pattern control, a very smooth response off to the sides, and relies on high efficiency drivers with low distortion. It's really a great value.

I think the only thing better would going to the larger waveguide and crossing it over lower, say at 800 hz. It would help lower the pattern control further. The difference would be minor and without a change in the cd could lead to less total output. Me personally, I wouldn't mess with three ways or dual diaphragm cd drivers. Keeping it simple like this helps to make a much transparent speaker with no pesky crossovers in our critical sensitive regions.
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post #58 of 95 Old 06-04-2016, 05:03 PM - Thread Starter
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These are probably the last LCR speakers I will ever need unless I move into a closest there will always be room for these.

I kind of took a blind leap of faith with only a handful of reviews but everyone of them was glowing. Spending $7,000 on JTR 212HTr's for my LCR was eating away at me and that alone gave me a good nudge in this direction. Especially reading in one of the GTG's these two were head to head.

I have a question? I think I got the toe in perfect for my sides. Since my center is below the TV dialogue seems a little low on the sound stage. Will wedging up a little help?

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post #59 of 95 Old 06-04-2016, 05:36 PM
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^

got a pic or 2?

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post #60 of 95 Old 06-05-2016, 12:37 AM
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Another note, I had this new version of the crossover installed for Mikes GTG and was running it with the optional padding resistor installed. I have a feeling they might have been better off without that padding resistor to give them a slightly less laid back sound in the treble.
I thought they sounded great at Mikes house, been thinking about them ever since. I thought the top end was very clean/detailed and I had the Fusion 15 as my #1 speaker.

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