GTA GTG-7/10: Blind Shootout, 1099/Danley SM60f/Fusion15/JTR 228/Seaton Cat8c - Page 12 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #331 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
This.

I don't pretend to know more than a fraction of what the collective here knows about sound, theory, technology w.r.t. the DIY scene-- but I don't think the F15's that were demo'd were in a fair fight with the JTRs or 1099s.

I'm not just saying this because I own 1099s (they don't sound harsh to me, also I'm currently sitting 10ft. from mine... so nowhere near ref. maybe -10dB or -6db at most).. But I say this as someone who is actually planning on building some F15s and my build will likely mimic lz7j's F15s with the additional cabinet volume. The plan is to set them up in a 2.0 / 2.1 setup to be used for regular TV shows, turntable, and digital music.

I think it would be interesting to use a 1099 in an extended cabinet, possibly in stereo-- but regardless I think there's something here for everyone and purchase options is def great for us as consumers.

I missed this in something. The F15's were modified from original plans? I somewhat understand the effect of adding cabinet volume, but it puts a twist on how I interpret the results now. Didn't a few people do full towers out of their 1099's as well?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
When he mentioned "date" I thought he was referring to setting up and playing with his new M2's, I was ready to offer my assistance. Lol
Some people might still want assistance in both situations...
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post #332 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:09 AM
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DAAAMMMMM I go on vacation for a week and I miss this GTA shootout!!!

I finally could have heard some good DIY speakers and subs other than mine...

Oh well next time.
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post #333 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:26 AM
 
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Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
I just got them yesterday afternoon. I haven't even set them up as I am going on vacation Saturday morning and am running around to get everything done beforehand.
I'm sensing a complete lack of dedication here.. Lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
I think the big thing is that we ran the shootout in mono, with a playlist that will make a lot of speakers sound "harsh" and the fact no alcohol was consumed

@fattykidd - since you have the tracks, you should try playing it stereo then mono without any room correction to see if it makes a difference.
If i get some time to yank my screen down I'll give it a go. When listening last nigjt i did have some issues with a couple tracks. -7 was my sweetspot for volume.
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post #334 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
I missed this in something. The F15's were modified from original plans? I somewhat understand the effect of adding cabinet volume, but it puts a twist on how I interpret the results now. Didn't a few people do full towers out of their 1099's as well?


Some people might still want assistance in both situations...
I think I'm correct on this, but the version of F15's with the curved wood veneer on the front are an extension of the original design--and they're absolutely gorgeous BTW.

There is a full-tower version of the 1099s as well.

Again the only reason I know this is because I will probably do a similar build with the F15s down the road for a 2.0 setup in my living space -- compared to what we have right now (a 5.1 setup with 1099s, Volt6, and POS sub) its still 'downsizing' to wifey
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post #335 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I think I'm correct on this, but the version of F15's with the curved wood veneer on the front are an extension of the original design--and they're absolutely gorgeous BTW.

There is a full-tower version of the 1099s as well.

Again the only reason I know this is because I will probably do a similar build with the F15s down the road for a 2.0 setup in my living space -- compared to what we have right now (a 5.1 setup with 1099s, Volt6, and POS sub) its still 'downsizing' to wifey

That's what I missed, I saw the waveguide and single cone and went "That's the F15 sitting on some ported sub".

The trick to not having to downsize is to not have a wife, just more cats, so much better that way.
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post #336 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
This.

I don't pretend to know more than a fraction of what the collective here knows about sound, theory, technology w.r.t. the DIY scene-- but I don't think the F15's that were demo'd were in a fair fight with the JTRs or 1099s.

I'm not just saying this because I own 1099s (they don't sound harsh to me, also I'm currently sitting 10ft. from mine... so nowhere near ref. maybe -10dB or -6db at most).. But I say this as someone who is actually planning on building some F15s and my build will likely mimic lz7j's F15s with the additional cabinet volume. The plan is to set them up in a 2.0 / 2.1 setup to be used for regular TV shows, turntable, and digital music.

I think it would be interesting to use a 1099 in an extended cabinet, possibly in stereo-- but regardless I think there's something here for everyone and purchase options is def great for us as consumers.
We weren't running reference either and we were sitting a little over 13 feet away i believe. The lower tuning of the f15 doesn't matter as much because all the speakers were crossed over to subs anyway.
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post #337 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
This.

I don't pretend to know more than a fraction of what the collective here knows about sound, theory, technology w.r.t. the DIY scene-- but I don't think the F15's that were demo'd were in a fair fight with the JTRs or 1099s.

I'm not just saying this because I own 1099s (they don't sound harsh to me, also I'm currently sitting 10ft. from mine... so nowhere near ref. maybe -10dB or -6db at most).. But I say this as someone who is actually planning on building some F15s and my build will likely mimic lz7j's F15s with the additional cabinet volume. The plan is to set them up in a 2.0 / 2.1 setup to be used for regular TV shows, turntable, and digital music.

I think it would be interesting to use a 1099 in an extended cabinet, possibly in stereo-- but regardless I think there's something here for everyone and purchase options is def great for us as consumers.
I would be curious to hear if you find the F15 harsh ( with the standard crossover). I think we all found them harsh unless they were behind the screen
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post #338 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mushroommunk View Post
I missed this in something. The F15's were modified from original plans? I somewhat understand the effect of adding cabinet volume, but it puts a twist on how I interpret the results now. Didn't a few people do full towers out of their 1099's as well?


Some people might still want assistance in both situations...
Adding volume to the F15 cabinet actually reduces the mid bass and increases the low bass, however all the speakers had a crossover so the tower advantage of 40 hz bass was not being used at its potential. Full towers are really for running them full range or with a low crossover, it doesn't impact mid bass really
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post #339 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
I would be curious to hear if you find the F15 harsh ( with the standard crossover). I think we all found them harsh unless they were behind the screen
I was at eng-399's GTG in plainfield a few weeks ago where we demo'd a 1099, F15, and JTR (228?). Due to some technical difficulties following a REW presentation, the speakers were not crossed over to subs and were run in mono.

I did not find the F15 to be harsh at all. For my tastes, I thought the detail of the F15 was lacking compared to the 1099--and I think everyone agreed that given the test setup, the JTR was the most pleasing to hear. That being said, I think any of the 3 would be a welcome addition to ANYONE looking for a solid set of LCR or 2.1 setup.

The reason I like the F15s for a stereo setup in my living room, is that I would like to just have 2 speakers in the room---and I'd like people to go "WOW" when they come in and see them. My father-in-law has a set of Klipsch speakers that look like refrigerators. They sound amazing and pretty sure they run about $2k each (he didn't know what he had until I told him). But that is the WOW factor i'm looking for in a 2.0 setup and I intend to do that with some F15 towers like the ones at the canadian GTG.
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post #340 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dbuudo07 View Post
I just wonder if everyone understands exactly what we did.

I'll break it down, again...

All of the blind listeners were upstairs chatting about gum drops and bubble gum while Nikko and I setup the speakers and measured them. We only cut peaks below the Schroeder frequency to ensure things didn't sound off. Nikko even took a nearfield measurement of the 1099 to confirm what we heard. We positioned the projector screen and lit the basement so it was impossible to see what the speaker positions were. Nikko and I made very sure if this.

They came downstairs, got their score sheets, pens, and something to write on, and we began the play list. Each track, ranging from 20 seconds to 55 seconds was played on each speaker before moving on the next track. This allowed the listeners to hear indentical media on all the speakers with about a 3 second delay between each of them. All speakers were fed indentical signals.

When the session was over, we collected all of the score sheets and asked them all to get the hell out for an hour. We did not discuss the session. Nikko and I repositioned the speakers, remeasured and Eq'ed.

The chaps returned, nearly breaking the door down to get back to listening, and we resumed, again without any discussion. At the end of the second listening session, we asked if anyone has any requests before we wrapped up. Reference levels for a few tracks was suggested, which we did.

That was our method. No alcohol was consumed at all during this day.

It's unfortunate that the 1099's stood out this way, but all things being equal, they did. I'm glad other people enjoy them, and with the right EQ, I'm sure they satisfy many.

Unanimously, we all to some degree or another, found them to not be as good as the other offerings; five of those people blindly so. This is not an attack on the owners, and especially not on the designer. We performed this as an objective experiment, and it was a success.
Did you have different volume setting for each speaker, so that they were level matched? I thought I remembered you guys saying they were level matched?
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post #341 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonichart View Post
I was at eng-399's GTG in plainfield a few weeks ago where we demo'd a 1099, F15, and JTR (228?). Due to some technical difficulties following a REW presentation, the speakers were not crossed over to subs and were run in mono.

I did not find the F15 to be harsh at all. For my tastes, I thought the detail of the F15 was lacking compared to the 1099--and I think everyone agreed that given the test setup, the JTR was the most pleasing to hear. That being said, I think any of the 3 would be a welcome addition to ANYONE looking for a solid set of LCR or 2.1 setup.

The reason I like the F15s for a stereo setup in my living room, is that I would like to just have 2 speakers in the room---and I'd like people to go "WOW" when they come in and see them. My father-in-law has a set of Klipsch speakers that look like refrigerators. They sound amazing and pretty sure they run about $2k each (he didn't know what he had until I told him). But that is the WOW factor i'm looking for in a 2.0 setup and I intend to do that with some F15 towers like the ones at the canadian GTG.
There are two crossover variants for the F15's. V1.08 and V1.10. Each version has an option to add an Lpad to further attenuate 2khz+ by 2db.

Here are my own 1M measurements to show the differences between V1.08 and V1.10


V1.10 provides a flatter 800hz-1500hz and also reduces 2khz by an average of 2db. Adding the Lpad on the V1.08 would achieve the same at 2khz+ as the standard V1.10. At @eng-399 's last gtg, @mtg90 confirmed he used the v1.10 with the optional Lpad to further reduce 2khz+. At my GTG, we used the standard v1.08 in green, at Mike's gtg you were listening to the red with an additional 2db attenuation (or 4db less compared to ours 2khz+)

If you're not using these behind the AT screen, use the standard v1.10. If you're sensitive to HF, add the lpad option to V1.10.
If you're using it behind an AT screen, use V1.08 standard.
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post #342 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
Did you have different volume setting for each speaker, so that they were level matched? I thought I remembered you guys saying they were level matched?
Yes, they were level matched. We used a CSL umik1 and REW. Applied 1/1 octave smoothing and ensured 400hz-2khz overlapped as closely as possible. The speakers were within 0.2db of each other during both rounds
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post #343 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 07:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally, RESULTS

But before that, I received a couple of requests for a video. Obviously, video a bunch of dudes with their eyes close while listening to tunes would be, ummm... not cool?!
So instead, while waiting for @AudioJosh and @Frank D to roll in with their speakers Dave was bustin' out some moves and I decided to record that instead



ROUND 1

Participant seating from Left to Right
- @Bassment , @HFGuy , @AudioJosh , @Frank D , @Magibeg

Speaker Order and label
A - DSL SM60f
B - JTR 228HT '14
C - 'tux 1099
D - Fusion 15 / F15 v1.08 xo

Positioning:




Round 1 measurement at C-MLP 13.5' away. All speakers received a 6db cut at 125hz, Q3.5 (105-145hz) to account for room gain. And applied a 650hz, -4db Q4.0 cut on the 1099 only



Scoring (**please note, I only have 4 out of 5 scoresheets)
Preferences in Round 1 based on scores
1) Danley SM60f (85)
2) F15 (84)
3) JTR 228ht (78)
4) 1099 (60)







ROUND 2

Participant seating from Left to Right
- @Bassment , @HFGuy , @AudioJosh , @Frank D , @Magibeg

Speaker Order and label
A - JTR 228ht
B - Danley SM60f
C - F15
D - 1099

Positioning:




Round 2 measurement at C-MLP 13.5' away. All speakers received a 6db cut at 125hz, Q3.5 (105-145hz) to account for room gain. And applied a 650hz, -4db Q4.0 cut on the 1099 only



Scoring (**please note, I only have 4 out of 5 scoresheets)
Preferences in Round 2 based on scores
1) JTR 228ht (86)
2) F15 (83)
3) Danley SM60f (73)
4) 1099 (68)








Total points based on both rounds:
1) F15 (167)
2) JTR 228ht (164)
3) Danley SM60f (158)
4) 1099 (128)


Added to the first post.
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post #344 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 08:04 PM
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Interesting. These rankings are not that far off from my own ranking when I heard F15, JTRs, and 1099s at a different GTG here in Chicago (@eng-399). The issue with the 1099s is that they are meant to go behind a screen, so that could have had an effect.
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post #345 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 08:13 PM
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The order of the speakers in the pictures don't seem to match the order listed in both of the rounds. Are they supposed to?
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post #346 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 08:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphy2112 View Post
Interesting. These rankings are not that far off from my own ranking when I heard F15, JTRs, and 1099s at a different GTG here in Chicago (@eng-399). The issue with the 1099s is that they are meant to go behind a screen, so that could have had an effect.
The 1099's were behind a screen
It's that 2400-2700hz range, it's a little too hot compared to the others. Our demo material most likely exacerbated it... which is why all participants noted it to be harsh.

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post #347 of 566 Old 07-14-2016, 08:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by irchow View Post
The order of the speakers in the pictures don't seem to match the order listed in both of the rounds. Are they supposed to?
Only round 1 matched the labels and order. Dave decided to mix it up in Round 2 which made it trickier to identify.

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post #348 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post
I got me an edumacation.

Nikko looks like I really didn't like your F15, shame because I am a sucker for the look.
It's all good, Dom! At least you were consistent
This just shows how it really boils down to preference. And if we ran Audyssey XT32/Dirac, all of these speakers, including the 1099 would have easily been within 5% of each other.

BTW, I guess you can consider yourself lucky you didn't have to win any spelling bee's to get your PhD. LOL
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post #349 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
Unless, you're trying to argue that all 4 speakers sound identical and a proper ABX test is necessary to first determine if the listener can ID which is which before attempting to express a preference or note audible differences. Was that your point?
No I'm not implying that they are identical, but rather: if a person can't hear a difference under ABX conditions. Then there is no foundation on which an opinion of differences is valid. (i.e. one speaker sounding a particular way over the other.)
They'd be able to pass the ABX with flying colors if they were found to be able to hear valid differences.
It just helps cut down on the noise.

ABX only ensures that you can hear a difference of some sort. It doesn't confirm that the difference is better or worse.

Then the trained-listener part comes in, to help figure out the better or worse part.

When repeated with multiple different people enough times, the chance of them ALL getting it wrong is less and less probable.

During the course of doing all that. One might conclude that there was no detectable difference in any of the speakers. (At least for that GEAR, in that ROOM, for THOSE listeners.)
But chances are, there WILL be a (huge) sonic difference between each...

One trick that is often done by the experimenter, is to play speaker A and then speaker B, but have both be the same speaker.
Although that isn't necessary to pass an ABX at all, it is fun to look at the results for a laugh to see how many people can have their ears be tricked on them.
My bet would be that everyone would fall victim to it, especially after a long battery of tests.

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post #350 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 06:52 PM
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Here are the results in Chart form. This should make it easier to visualize quickly for people who don't have the time to look at the data and analyze it deeply.




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post #351 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 07:09 PM
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post #352 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 07:52 PM
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Here is another way of looking at the same data:

I summed all the scores for each speaker, in each category, in both rounds, and averaged it across all the voters.
This gives the relative scores for the whole GTG in one static image.
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post #353 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 08:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Except we're in Canada not the US so no, it's $2000. The price is completely irrelevant the whole point is it sounds the same as anything else and wasn't causing harshness. I don't know why you are even talking about this
It might be a little thread drift, butthe point is well met, and I fully accept the amp used was a good one.

I think clarifying the price point of some equipment be it speaker or amp is worth it. It goes to the category of general knowledge.

This is not for discussion in this thread but at some point I think it would be interesting to see what amps work the best with SEOS type speakers. It DOES make a difference with the Klipsch Heritage crowd, and it is WELL KNOWN that some amps work better with some speakers and not with others.

Here is a discussion from the Klipsch Forum Solid State amps known to sound good with Klipsch which influences my thinking on the subject:

https://community.klipsch.com/index....-with-klipsch/
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Last edited by wvu80; 07-16-2016 at 12:07 AM.
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post #354 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 09:00 PM
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I just got them yesterday afternoon. I haven't even set them up as I am going on vacation Saturday morning and am running around to get everything done beforehand.
Cool, congrats. Looking forward to your impressions when you get back from vacation. Enjoy!
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post #355 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 09:02 PM
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Here is another way of looking at the same data:
Nice work, BTH I know that took a lot of time. The graphs are easy to read, except that one that rolls too fast for me to follow.

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post #356 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 09:06 PM
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I really enjoyed following this thread. You guys did a phenomenal job, and I think this is the best executed GTG I have seen.
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post #357 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 09:28 PM
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fwiw, same data displayed a little differently. but the issues that impacted the spectral content balance blows all this up for actually assessing the speakers. fun to look at though. :-)


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post #358 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 09:42 PM
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It might be a little thread drift, butthe point is well met, and I fully accept the amp used was a good one.

I think clarifying the price point of some equipment be it speaker or amp is worth it. It goes to the category of general knowledge.

This is not for discussion in this thread but at some point I think it would be interesting to see what amps work the best with SEOS type speakers. It DOES make a difference with the Klipsch Heritage crowd, and it is WELL KNOWN that some amps work better with some speakers and not with others.


Just like tube Amps, they don't like a low impedance, they love horns and really efficient drivers.

Some amps are good like class a and ab, the difference in most is current and how low of s impedance they can be stable too.

There are so many factors when setting up a stereo. It's a mix and match of components that work all together.

I'm in the middle of building a tower speaker that uses 4 X 7" drivers for the bass section, helping getting them designed one thing was mentioned, this design might dip low in the 2-3 ohm. However my krell Amos will handle that no sweat.

It's a fun game to do audio, I'm still learning things here and there but that's the whole point.


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post #359 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wvu80 View Post
It might be a little thread drift, butthe point is well met, and I fully accept the amp used was a good one.

I think clarifying the price point of some equipment be it speaker or amp is worth it. It goes to the category of general knowledge.

This is not for discussion in this thread but at some point I think it would be interesting to see what amps work the best with SEOS type speakers. It DOES make a difference with the Klipsch Heritage crowd, and it is WELL KNOWN that some amps work better with some speakers and not with others.
I disagree, I haven't seen a single piece of evidence to support your claim. Other than with amps that are broken or old. I don't think a single test has ever been done where amps run within their limits could be told apart.

If you have heard a difference blind between amps, there is a $10,000 reward that I suggest you go and claim http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/
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post #360 of 566 Old 07-15-2016, 09:54 PM
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I disagree, I haven't seen a single piece of evidence to support your claim. Other than with amps that are broken or old. I don't think a single test has ever been done where amps run within their limits could be told apart.



If you have heard a difference blind between amps, there is a $10,000 reward that I suggest you go and claim http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/


Don't worry your way to young to understand the difference, just stick to your avr receivers and be happy..


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