GTA GTG-7/10: Blind Shootout, 1099/Danley SM60f/Fusion15/JTR 228/Seaton Cat8c - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 566 Old 06-27-2016, 09:31 PM - Thread Starter
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GTA GTG-7/10: Blind Shootout, 1099/Danley SM60f/Fusion15/JTR 228/Seaton Cat8c

It's on like donkey kong! Hosting the very first blind shootout locally with very high calibre speakers and awesome fellow enthusiast.

Where: My place in Mississauga
When: Sunday, July 10th. For folks bringing speakers, please be here for 10am. Shootout start time at 11am (we will set-up on Friday, 7/8 if you wanted to bring your speaker ahead of time).
Who: @AudioJosh - sm60f, @HFGuy - 1099, @Frank D - 228, @Magibeg - cat8 (maybe), @Bassment - F12 (if he can fit it inside his new camaro), @Dbuudo07 . Inviting + @Billy p , @pbc and whoever can bring a JBL M2.
What: EPICNESS!
How: Doing the shootout blind and in mono to evaluate performance. We will be using Crown XLS1500's for the speakers, XO at 80hz to 4x18" ported subs up front and using a MiniDSP 4x10 to switch between outputs. An AT screen will be used. Each speaker will be level matched and measured prior to the event. Switching will be tested 2 days prior to anticipate any issues (we always have at least 1 at these GTG's).

I will update this post with our playlist info, agenda and pictures as they become available.


Finally, RESULTS

But before that, I received a couple of requests for a video. Obviously, video a bunch of dudes with their eyes close while listening to tunes would be, ummm... not cool?!
So instead, while waiting for @AudioJosh and @Frank D to roll in with their speakers Dave was bustin' out some moves and I decided to record that instead



ROUND 1

Participant seating from Left to Right
- @Bassment , @HFGuy , @AudioJosh , @Frank D , @Magibeg

Speaker Order and label
A - DSL SM60f
B - JTR 228HT '14
C - 'tux 1099
D - Fusion 15 / F15 v1.08 xo

Positioning:




Round 1 measurement at C-MLP 13.5' away. All speakers received a 6db cut at 125hz, Q3.5 (105-145hz) to account for room gain. And applied a 650hz, -4db Q4.0 cut on the 1099 only



Scoring (**please note, I only have 4 out of 5 scoresheets)
Preferences in Round 1 based on scores
1) Danley SM60f (85)
2) F15 (84)
3) JTR 228ht (78)
4) 1099 (60)







ROUND 2

Participant seating from Left to Right
- @Bassment , @HFGuy , @AudioJosh , @Frank D , @Magibeg

Speaker Order and label
A - JTR 228ht
B - Danley SM60f
C - F15
D - 1099

Positioning:




Round 2 measurement at C-MLP 13.5' away. All speakers received a 6db cut at 125hz, Q3.5 (105-145hz) to account for room gain. And applied a 650hz, -4db Q4.0 cut on the 1099 only



Scoring (**please note, I only have 4 out of 5 scoresheets)
Preferences in Round 2 based on scores
1) JTR 228ht (86)
2) F15 (83)
3) Danley SM60f (73)
4) 1099 (68)








Total points based on both rounds:
1) F15 (167)
2) JTR 228ht (164)
3) Danley SM60f (158)
4) 1099 (128)


Added to the first post.



Update: Monday, July 4th

Schedule:
10am - if you're bringing a speaker, please come 2 hours prior to the event. If you'd like to drop the speaker off this week, please send me a PM or call to make arrangements

11:45am - participants to arrive, 15mins prior to get a baseline.

12pm sharp- Round 1 will start

12:45pm - break for lunch. There'a a plaza across the street, within 5mins walk. Pizzaville, Sora Sushi, Dairy Queen, Lazzar, a grocery store, Subway and an awesome middle eastern spot, Roman Zaman for food.

**Dave and I will reshuffle the speakers, re-measure at this time.

1:45pm - Round 2 starts

2:30pm - Shootout ends. Tally up the scores.

2:40pm - Open discussion. At this time, we will set-up the Fusion15 and Danley SM60f to stereo, I'm very curious to hear what I'm missing out.

4pm - Event ends


Update: Monday, July 9th
Playlist and score sheet has been finalized




Last edited by lz7j; 07-14-2016 at 07:53 PM.
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post #2 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 05:56 AM
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Looking forward to it.
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post #3 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 06:16 AM
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Looks to be quite interesting! Looking forwards to it.

P.S. do we have anyone who owns the M2? I haven't gotten mine yet and I don't imagine it would fit in my Jeep anyhow.

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post #4 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 06:24 AM
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It will be cool to read about this GTA GTG!
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post #5 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 06:32 AM - Thread Starter
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It will be cool to read about this GTA GTG!
Why read and not experience it? You're more than welcome to come. Just be prepared to build and/or buy new speakers after the event. Lol.

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post #6 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 06:45 AM
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Outstanding!

Always good to read about the differences in Danley/JTR/Seaton/DIY SG speakers and get an idea of what works best for different scenarios.

Is the JTR 228 the two-way speaker or the 228HTR with the 2-way BMS driven horn for a 3-way system?

Enjoy your epic G2G up in cool weather Ontario.
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post #7 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 06:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Outstanding!

Always good to read about the differences in Danley/JTR/Seaton/DIY SG speakers and get an idea of what works best for different scenarios.

Is the JTR 228 the two-way speaker or the 228HTR with the 2-way BMS driven horn for a 3-way system?

Enjoy your epic G2G up in cool weather Ontario.
The JTR is a 2014 228ht 2-way version which was preferred over the new 228ht with the wooden horn in the Boston gtg.

It's been sizzling over here for the past 2 weeks!

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post #8 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 06:58 AM
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I hope to represent the DIYSG proud. Hopefully this GTG can re-inspire me to get back to my DIY projects. I would LOVE to hear some M2 at some point, curious to hear if I am missing anything from a top commercial product.
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post #9 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 06:59 AM
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Hot, Humid.... At least we have a bit of a break for the next few days!
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post #10 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 07:41 AM
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Subscribed looks like a great time and great idea having everything ready before the day so you won't have any problems. That's a nice setup coming over to your house.
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post #11 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 08:47 AM
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Non fullrange speakers have a huge disadvantage when being compared without subwoofers to fullrange speakers. It would be interesting to see the results if all the speakers had a 80hz highpass. I pulled an all nighter to rush out the set of 2015 N228 to Boston gtg and swapped two components in the crossovers so those weren't operating properly. We did just introduce the 2017 with a neodymium compression driver.
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post #12 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 09:04 AM
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Non fullrange speakers have a huge disadvantage when being compared without subwoofers to fullrange speakers. It would be interesting to see the results if all the speakers had a 80hz highpass. I pulled an all nighter to rush out the set of 2015 N228 to Boston gtg and swapped two components in the crossovers so those weren't operating properly. We did just introduce the 2017 with a neodymium compression driver.
We're using subs (I think?)
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post #13 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 09:40 AM
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I remember when people had GTG's to have fun, hang out with other enthusiasts, shoot the breeze, drink adult beverages, and eat good food. Now they're all about serious and about blind testing stuff.
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post #14 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 10:31 AM
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I remember when people had GTG's to have fun, hang out with other enthusiasts, shoot the breeze, drink adult beverages, and eat good food. Now they're all about serious and about blind testing stuff.
We can suck the fun from anything! On a more serious note it's just interesting to see if certain speakers actually do sound better or if staring down a horn has a placebo effect. I'm willing to bet the 1099, fusion 15, jtr 228, and cat8 all sound fairly similar. It's the Danley I wonder about.
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post #15 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 10:52 AM
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We can suck the fun from anything! On a more serious note it's just interesting to see if certain speakers actually do sound better or if staring down a horn has a placebo effect. I'm willing to bet the 1099, fusion 15, jtr 228, and cat8 all sound fairly similar. It's the Danley I wonder about.
I don't think the 1099 will be similar
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I don't think the 1099 will be similar
Think it will be aggressive enough to pick out blind?
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post #18 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 11:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Think it will be aggressive enough to pick out blind?
The f-15 is going to stick out like a sore thumb from the midbass difference. I'm going to check out the Danley's tomorrow and I'm very curious to hear them myself. For the guys that'll be sitting off-axis, the danley's can easily be identified as well due to their narrower directivity.
The challenge is differentiating the 1099 vs. 228's. Nonetheless, it's going to be super fun! My older speakers have "lost" in these shootouts in the past which got me to the F-15's... I assure you, when they lose, I'm getting the JBL M2's asap. lol

I've updated the post to address the sub set-up. All speakers will be crossed to 80hz to 4 subs up front.
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post #19 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 11:34 AM
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The f-15 is going to stick out like a sore thumb from the midbass difference. I'm going to check out the Danley's tomorrow and I'm very curious to hear them myself. For the guys that'll be sitting off-axis, the danley's can easily be identified as well due to their narrower directivity.
The challenge is differentiating the 1099 vs. 228's. Nonetheless, it's going to be super fun! My older speakers have "lost" in these shootouts in the past which got me to the F-15's... I assure you, when they lose, I'm getting the JBL M2's asap. lol

I've updated the post to address the sub set-up. All speakers will be crossed to 80hz to 4 subs up front.
Not sure I want to know what I am missing with my single 15" sub.
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post #20 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 11:38 AM
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I have 4 18"s going in, but right now I am *only* running 2 x 15" Rhythmik subs.

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post #21 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 11:44 AM
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I am also wondering what a mono shootout will be like. I am more familiar with shootouts via stereo. Some speakers do have a very different presence (soundstage, ability to image, perceived depth and placement of various parts). Those things probably go out the window with mono. Still very intrigued though.

What music selection will be using? Maybe we should vote on a some tracks before hand. I highly recommend a good portion of it is acoustic (like full scale classical), as it is generally accepted to have a reference sound.

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I might suggest:
Diablo Rojo (Rodrigo y Gabriela)

And something off this excellent recording:
BOLERO!-- orchestral fireworrks
EIJI OUE / MINNESOTA ORCHESTRA
RR-92 HDCD

http://referencerecordings.com/minnesota.asp

I have both recordings somewhere, will just have to dig them out. I also don't mind cranking some Opeth either.

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I'm willing to bet the 1099, fusion 15, jtr 228, and cat8 all sound fairly similar. It's the Danley I wonder about.
I would expect they will all be readily distinguishable from one another, even under blind testing. As to how significant the differences will be, or which speakers people will like best... No idea.
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post #24 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 12:50 PM
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My older speakers have "lost" in these shootouts in the past which got me to the F-15's... I assure you, when they lose, I'm getting the JBL M2's asap. lol
Or just try some newer, bigger, more powerful DIY stuff.

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post #25 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 12:53 PM
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I'd personally suggest taking measurements with at least 3 of the speakers (if possible) highpassed at 80hz and connected to the 4 subs. You want the integration to be as perfect as possible. It's a little unpredictable right now, and you want to be sure you don't have any speakers where their position in the room, their alignment, etc. causes them to integrate more poorly with the subs than others. Even assuming everything is level matched, you could have holes and notches.


At Mikes GTG we also felt like adding subs was really needed, but a few of us discussed this and felt like it would take some time and measurements to be sure the integration was the same. The speakers own low end response and alignment changes what their rolloff looks like once the highpass is applied. You could end up with some speakers having a 3 db dimple in the bass around 80hz, others could have a 3db bump, and that would be very audible. More than likely the "bump" would be preferred in quick blind testing. The other possibility would just be a phase alignment issue that could cause a suckout. Ported speakers tuned too close to that highpass can sometimes cause this.


The speakers coming together seem epic, I'm excited to see what people find. If you get the M2's there, that would be pretty amazing, though they would be hard to incorporate in the shootout, no? They must be used with active crossover and biamped, the other speakers wouldn't be. You would have to integrate that into the setup. They might have a decided advantage as that should lower distortion, improve dynamics, and possibly sound different. Some have noted that the Crown amplifiers are noisy. I was a bit shocked to here that since the amps are top of the line and very expensive. What was crown thinking?
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post #26 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 01:05 PM
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I'd personally suggest taking measurements with at least 3 of the speakers (if possible) highpassed at 80hz and connected to the 4 subs. You want the integration to be as perfect as possible. It's a little unpredictable right now, and you want to be sure you don't have any speakers where their position in the room, their alignment, etc. causes them to integrate more poorly with the subs than others. Even assuming everything is level matched, you could have holes and notches.


At Mikes GTG we also felt like adding subs was really needed, but a few of us discussed this and felt like it would take some time and measurements to be sure the integration was the same. The speakers own low end response and alignment changes what their rolloff looks like once the highpass is applied. You could end up with some speakers having a 3 db dimple in the bass around 80hz, others could have a 3db bump, and that would be very audible. More than likely the "bump" would be preferred in quick blind testing. The other possibility would just be a phase alignment issue that could cause a suckout. Ported speakers tuned too close to that highpass can sometimes cause this.


The speakers coming together seem epic, I'm excited to see what people find. If you get the M2's there, that would be pretty amazing, though they would be hard to incorporate in the shootout, no? They must be used with active crossover and biamped, the other speakers wouldn't be. You would have to integrate that into the setup. They might have a decided advantage as that should lower distortion, improve dynamics, and possibly sound different. Some have noted that the Crown amplifiers are noisy. I was a bit shocked to here that since the amps are top of the line and very expensive. What was crown thinking?
They're all being measured
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post #27 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 01:05 PM
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I would have subs play with the speakers the best that you can and don't take to long trying to make it perfect IMO. Try to have fun doing it, at my gtg meet the subs were needed really bad I wish I would of planned better for it because in real life ht listening we all have subs backing our speakers. Also make sure you have a full beer in your hand at all times to
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post #28 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
I might suggest:
Diablo Rojo (Rodrigo y Gabriela)

And something off this excellent recording:
BOLERO!-- orchestral fireworrks
EIJI OUE / MINNESOTA ORCHESTRA
RR-92 HDCD

http://referencerecordings.com/minnesota.asp

I have both recordings somewhere, will just have to dig them out. I also don't mind cranking some Opeth either.
I assume we'll use the playlist we always use, it's all reference recordings. There's some jazz, classical, rock, and movies
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post #29 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 01:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by HFGuy View Post
Not sure I want to know what I am missing with my single 15" sub.
Sorry man, I will ruin your bass expectations for you moving forward.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudioJosh View Post
I am also wondering what a mono shootout will be like. I am more familiar with shootouts via stereo. Some speakers do have a very different presence (soundstage, ability to image, perceived depth and placement of various parts). Those things probably go out the window with mono. Still very intrigued though.

What music selection will be using? Maybe we should vote on a some tracks before hand. I highly recommend a good portion of it is acoustic (like full scale classical), as it is generally accepted to have a reference sound.
I don't know what to expect with a mono shootout. It was either that or doing a blind shootout in pairs. In terms of the materials, you'll hear them tomorrow and maybe we can finalize the tracks then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
I'd personally suggest taking measurements with at least 3 of the speakers (if possible) highpassed at 80hz and connected to the 4 subs. You want the integration to be as perfect as possible. It's a little unpredictable right now, and you want to be sure you don't have any speakers where their position in the room, their alignment, etc. causes them to integrate more poorly with the subs than others. Even assuming everything is level matched, you could have holes and notches.


At Mikes GTG we also felt like adding subs was really needed, but a few of us discussed this and felt like it would take some time and measurements to be sure the integration was the same. The speakers own low end response and alignment changes what their rolloff looks like once the highpass is applied. You could end up with some speakers having a 3 db dimple in the bass around 80hz, others could have a 3db bump, and that would be very audible. More than likely the "bump" would be preferred in quick blind testing. The other possibility would just be a phase alignment issue that could cause a suckout. Ported speakers tuned too close to that highpass can sometimes cause this.


The speakers coming together seem epic, I'm excited to see what people find. If you get the M2's there, that would be pretty amazing, though they would be hard to incorporate in the shootout, no? They must be used with active crossover and biamped, the other speakers wouldn't be. You would have to integrate that into the setup. They might have a decided advantage as that should lower distortion, improve dynamics, and possibly sound different. Some have noted that the Crown amplifiers are noisy. I was a bit shocked to here that since the amps are top of the line and very expensive. What was crown thinking?
I actually bought a basic 8-way RCA switcher but this very issue with sub alignment was brought up. We intend to use the delay function of the minidsp to time-align the speakers to the sub.

Setup:
Denon X4000 pre-out -> MiniDSP 4x10 -> Crown Amps -> Speakers
Denon X4000 sub out -> MiniDsp 88a Dirac enabled -> Amps -> Subs

In the past, we've done these GTG's sighted and we tweaked the delays/distances on the AVR after measuring. I intend to measure all speakers to try and do a more thorough comparison. I had to limit the guest count for this GTG to focus on the actual shootout... all business!
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post #30 of 566 Old 06-28-2016, 01:49 PM
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That's a good plan. I think what went wrong with Mikes was that we just didn't anticipate the work to get it setup right and it wasn't done in advance. Of course what went right was that it was a ton of fun and even without good blind testing it was great to hear the different speakers and gain some perception of the tonal differences, strengths, weaknesses, etc. Reality is nobody is doing proper blind testing here, we can't, we don't have the resources to do that. If you look at the lab that Harman has setup for this, that is the gold standard right now, nobody does it better that I'm aware of, and we just can't equal that. In my field of research, being close just isn't good enough and our view is that if you can't do it right, do something else of greater value to the field. In this case, that's what Mike suggested have fun. I'm not suggesting you don't bother making it blind, but do some measurements at the setup phase, get it close, but the results of these tests will never be scientifically valid double blind preference tests. That is OK, they are what they are. You won't have fun if you are too business oriented.
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