Calling all compression driver experts on JBL Pro Cinema speakers! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 5Likes
  • 2 Post By bwaslo
  • 1 Post By Erich H
  • 1 Post By Jason kiDD
  • 1 Post By Erich H
 
Thread Tools
post #1 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Calling all compression driver experts on JBL Pro Cinema speakers!

Hi guys,
This is kind of a follow on thread from post #83 on my 4645C thread. However that was going a bit off topic from the OP so here's a new thread to deal with this issue!

Quick update. Finally got the 3677's back from a local repair shop that the supplier told me I had to go to. (Can't open anything up or I void the warranty.) To recap I was hearing light distortion from 2 of the CD's.

So they told me they replaced the diaphragms in all 3 speakers with genuine 2416h-1 diaphragms. Even in the one good one. Good news is that the distortion seems to have gone! Yay!

So I listen in the shop before I take them home, and one sounds fine. (Not the originally good one.) However the other two have a slightly more subdued, less open, less airy, more muted, rolled off HF, lower volume, a little lifeless (that's all I can think of to describe it so far ) type of sound than the good CD. The repairer assured me that it 'should be all good now.' So I took them home to try them on my system... Same problem at home. I made my wife have a listen to see if it was just me and my imagination. I didn't tell her my thoughts about any of the speakers, but she ended up coming up with the exact same thing I am describing.

Now, I am kind of new to pro cinema speakers. However I am struggling to work out what the issue could be??? I don't feel like taking it back to the repair shop because it seemed like their experience with pro cinema speakers seemed a little limited.

What else can they do with the CD apart from replace the diaphragms in them again?
Do the new diaphragms need a period of time to 'break in' to open up? (I don't know why one sounds fine and the other two sound different when all 3 diaphragms were replaced).
Might they be out of phase? Or wired incorrectly?
I'm willing to open them up to check a few things if I can check anything?

A pic for fun...

Last edited by AudyoVidyo; 08-17-2016 at 09:59 PM.
AudyoVidyo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 05:40 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 18,307
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2310 Post(s)
Liked: 2249
Measure them and see if their responses are different, if so then it could be wired wrong or something else is bad.
MKtheater is online now  
post #3 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Thanks MK.

I couldn't help myself. Here are some pics of the crossovers and drivers. Seem to be wired correctly, but the good one is wired to the other side of the crossover. Should that make any difference?

Bad one:





Good one:


AudyoVidyo is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #4 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 06:13 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
MKtheater's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: New Hartford, NY
Posts: 18,307
Mentioned: 134 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2310 Post(s)
Liked: 2249
It looks wired differently. Can you get a close up of the boards?
MKtheater is online now  
post #5 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 07:10 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
A9X-308's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Australia
Posts: 8,321
Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1792 Post(s)
Liked: 1483
The service manual will be on the JBL website and it usually shows a schematic and all the connections.
A9X-308 is offline  
post #6 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Yeah I found that here:
http://www.jblproservice.com/pdf/The...eries/3677.pdf

It seems to be wired correctly, just to the top of the board on one, and underneath the board on the other.

Both the bad ones are wired to the top of the boards. Possible issue? I don't see how though?
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #7 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 07:25 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
tuxedocivic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Ladysmith, BC
Posts: 7,988
Mentioned: 227 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2300 Post(s)
Liked: 2224
Looks wired the same to me. Just the other side of the board which shouldn't matter if I the board is through hole.

No break in necessary. If the diaphragm wasnt seated into the CD properly it could change the response. But you'd have to be pretty careless to do that.

There isn't much to a CD. Not much to go wrong.

Just to be clear, the distortion (original problem) is gone now, correct?

My youtube channel: Impulse Audio
tuxedocivic is offline  
post #8 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 07:46 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Looks wired the same to me. Just the other side of the board which shouldn't matter if I the board is through hole.

No break in necessary. If the diaphragm wasnt seated into the CD properly it could change the response. But you'd have to be pretty careless to do that.

There isn't much to a CD. Not much to go wrong.

Just to be clear, the distortion (original problem) is gone now, correct?
Yep it seems that the distortion is all gone now. Not really sure what would have caused it in the first place...

I just pulled all 3 CD's apart to compare & check nothing was visually out of place. Diaphragms looked ok. There was a bit of a random sticky residue on the gasket surface area (on the magnet side) of all 3 so I cleaned most of that off. It wouldn't all come off though, but I got it to a point where I couldn't detect any raised parts on the surface. However I don't think it affected the sound at all. I thought it could have done if the gasket wasn't sealing properly, but there's not detectable difference in sound afterwards.
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #9 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 07:49 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Samps's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,728
Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1219 Post(s)
Liked: 901
Is it possible to reverse the polarity when installing a new diaphragm?
Samps is offline  
post #10 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 07:53 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Good question. Only when wiring them up at the terminals though I think. The whole black piece on the back has the diaphragm installed in it. Un-removable by the looks. I didn't want to pry it apart or anything.

Pics here: http://www.simplyspeakers.com/jbl-re...d8r2416-1.html
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #11 of 29 Old 08-17-2016, 08:43 PM
Advanced Member
 
bwaslo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 918
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Liked: 199
Since the compression drivers (with their horns) have slide-on/off terminals, try changing the drivers and horns between speakers, see if the muted sound follows the crossover or the compression driver.
tuxedocivic and SpinMonster like this.

___________________________________________
DIY Synergy horn spreadsheet Synergy horn spreadsheet and pdf
XSim -free crossover designer and simulator XSim install file
Easy and cheap sound diffusers (the "Depot Diffusers") making easy DIY depot sound diffuser-panels-step by step.html
SmallSyns - point source controlled directivity in a manageable size SmallSyns
bwaslo is offline  
post #12 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 05:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cdy2179's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: central Louisiana
Posts: 3,340
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 865 Post(s)
Liked: 642
I'm guessing these are brand new? Man you've got some bad luck. As for break in time..yes..yes.. and yes. The CDs took around 2 weeks of constant play before they settled into their final sound to me...getting smoother and smoother.

Remember these do have the xcurve which is easily fixed via xt32 or other eqs and easily get you flat to 15k. Honestly I still love them without eq.

As MK mentioned measurements will help. One sounding different is really odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AudyoVidyo View Post

Trying to get in touch with the dealer to discuss further. I don't want to wait another 3 months for two more to come!!!
Personally I'd go this route if they're new. JBL makes these in batches so it's possible you'd have new ones in a week. My first ones took about 10 days.. the newest ones about 4 days to my door. They should be drop shipped from JBL.

Last edited by cdy2179; 08-18-2016 at 05:04 AM.
cdy2179 is offline  
post #13 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 05:20 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 7,350
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1845 Post(s)
Liked: 2640
I wouldn't think titanium diaphragms will have a break in period.
tuxedocivic likes this.

_______________________
The SEOS Waveguide Project
Erich H is offline  
post #14 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 05:45 AM
Senior Member
 
Jason kiDD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: NYC
Posts: 225
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 52 Post(s)
Liked: 35
Easiest test is to the take the crossover from the good one and switch it with the different sounding one and see if anything changes...
cdy2179 likes this.
Jason kiDD is offline  
post #15 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 05:46 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cdy2179's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: central Louisiana
Posts: 3,340
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 865 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I wouldn't think titanium diaphragms will have a break in period.
I wasn't a believer in it either. The woofers broke in quickly but the CD went from a tad harsh to smoother and smoother. I have a timeline of it in the review thread in my tags below.
cdy2179 is offline  
post #16 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 07:45 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
VicTorious1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,222
Mentioned: 33 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 580 Post(s)
Liked: 667
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdy2179 View Post
I wasn't a believer in it either. The woofers broke in quickly but the CD went from a tad harsh to smoother and smoother. I have a timeline of it in the review thread in my tags below.
Interesting. Did the CD measure differently over time?
VicTorious1 is offline  
post #17 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 07:57 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cdy2179's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: central Louisiana
Posts: 3,340
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 865 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
Interesting. Did the CD measure differently over time?
At that time I didn't measure .. well except for my subs just to EQ. If you read my review thread you'll see I also tried different horns.. including the 4pi horn. I didn't realize they weren't broken in at the time or that it was a "thing" for a CD. As they got smoother the stock horn was perfect.
cdy2179 is offline  
post #18 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 08:01 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cdy2179's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: central Louisiana
Posts: 3,340
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 865 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
Interesting. Did the CD measure differently over time?
This is off topic for the OP as he obviously has some QC issues but Here I copied and pasted my "after break in" response back from 2010.

From the time stamps I had them for around 2 and half weeks at this point with a ton of hours on them.

Update!!!

Well I take back all of the nit picking I did with these babies. They really take a while to break in...even the CD has changed drastically. Dynamics are incredible of course but the horns have really opened up.

this weekend we watched, From paris with love (Blu-ray), Splice (Blu-Ray) and Defendor (HD rip). All great movies..especially Defendor and From Paris with love, which had great soundtracks and lots of action.

This is by far the best my room has ever sounded....no longer any harshness..we even cranked it louder than normal and it flat out rocked. Vocals were oustanding, we could make out conversations that were going on in the background of the movie as if we were in the room..things other speakers I've had wouldn't have made clear.

I also experiemented with different horns (primarily the one the 4 pi uses) although the 4 Pi horn did sound a little better with music the original horn imaged better and blended better with the woofer with vocals.

All in all I say for the price the 3677 is total winner...for all I know it's still breaking in but it's already killing anything i've had in the past.

This weekend I built the corner cabinets for the mains and this afternoon i'll be installing the drivers in their new home.!
cdy2179 is offline  
post #19 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 08:29 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
Erich H's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Cincinnati OH
Posts: 7,350
Mentioned: 290 Post(s)
Tagged: 3 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1845 Post(s)
Liked: 2640
If you switched back and forth between different horns, you might not have liked the one you changed to. When you went back to the original, it might have sounded better due to the horn.

I don't think there are any soft parts around the titanium on that driver are there?
cdy2179 likes this.

_______________________
The SEOS Waveguide Project
Erich H is offline  
post #20 of 29 Old 08-18-2016, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Thanks for your suggestions guys. I am taking them on board.

cdy, Thanks for sharing your experience with them. I will let them play a fair bit more to see whether they settle or change over more use.

I have contacted the repairer again and told him about the issues I am experiencing. They said they are going to contact the supplier/distributor here in Australia to see what they can do about it.

The saga continues...

If they don't want to do anything, I will have a bit of a play with it myself to figure out a solution. To be honest at the moment I am just totally over it all. Things like this are not cheap to get to Aus, and they take a long time to get here by boat from the States (planes won't take them on board due to the magnets). Waited 3 months initially, so it's been over 4.5 months since I paid for them in the first place. And there is very little expertise in the pro cinema field here I have found. The only genius's I have found who much experience at all with these legendary speakers are on this forum!

I do have to be a bit more patient though. I know we will get it sorted eventually. Just annoying that's all.
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #21 of 29 Old 08-19-2016, 04:33 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
cdy2179's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: central Louisiana
Posts: 3,340
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 865 Post(s)
Liked: 642
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudyoVidyo View Post

If they don't want to do anything, I will have a bit of a play with it myself to figure out a solution. To be honest at the moment I am just totally over it all. Things like this are not cheap to get to Aus, and they take a long time to get here by boat from the States (planes won't take them on board due to the magnets). Waited 3 months initially, so it's been over 4.5 months since I paid for them in the first place.

I didn't realize you weren't in the states. I can totally see why it's such a pain now.

One mod I did to my original ones was to add some r13 to the cabinets. I'm sure you've seen how thin the lining is which is ridiculous. I haven't done it in my new ones but it did smooth out the one I did the mod in even more. I follow a lot of DIY builds and kits like the 4pi which uses pro drivers like the JBL 2226 so I was really surprised by JBLs lack of lining. Crossing at 1.2k the woofer is handling over half of the vocals and resonance can definitely be an issue with super thin lining.
cdy2179 is offline  
post #22 of 29 Old 10-05-2016, 04:13 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Alright! Now we're talking!

So this has been quite a long drawn out saga. The supplier sent out 4 more diaphragms to their local recommended repairer here and basically said go ahead, try all of the diaphragms, swap and match until all 3 speakers sound the same. What the? It seems that JBL's quality control has taken a nose-dive! At least in my short experience with them. The repairer spent quite a bit of time he said swapping out diaphragms to find 3 that sounded similar to each other. There is still a slight difference between the 3 but I am just using the best sounding one as my center, and the other two as L/R as they sound similar to each other. However they all sound close enough for me to drop this now and move on.

The repairer was more than accommodating. I asked if we could do some frequency sweeps or spectrum analysis before I took them out of his shop again. (didn't want to bring them back again!). So he set them up with the NTI XL2 Acoustic Analyser he had used to do his measurements and checks on the drivers earlier. All 3 measured within 1.5db of each other across the spectrum so I was fine with that. We listened to blind pink noise tests and I couldn't tell the differences between them. We then ran some music through them and compared them and it all sounded great. Crystal clear and ready to go. A big thanks to him. Great guy.

More on the QC. When did JBL move to Mexico for their manufacturing? The repairer was inspecting each diaphragm and noticed a few differences between the 2015 model diaphragms and the 2016 model ones. Mainly in the gluing. The 2015 model ones have a smooth glue around the diaphragm mounting plate, and the 2016 ones have a stippled or orange peely type finish with the gluing. Also on the coils, the later model ones were not flush at the coil termination points (where each end of the wire is glued on). The glue was a bit bulgy at the ends. This could have resulted in some rubbing on the inside of the gap and affected the performance considerably.

So JBL I don't know what you're doing, but you better fix this QC on your diaphragms & CD's quickly. Otherwise fantastic sounding speakers!
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #23 of 29 Old 10-05-2016, 04:29 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NWCgrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 3,625
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1283 Post(s)
Liked: 1331
Thumbs down

The move to Mexico was not well conceived, it was as done by the CEO because factories in the US and Europe are not in line with his world view!

______________________________________
Home Theater:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...sement-ht.html
NWCgrad is offline  
post #24 of 29 Old 10-05-2016, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
The move to Mexico was not well conceived, it was as done by the CEO because factories in the US and Europe are not in line with his world view!
What does that mean? Has anyone else had QC issues with the Mexico built stuff? Do they still make stuff in the US?
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #25 of 29 Old 10-05-2016, 05:17 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
NWCgrad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Frederick, MD
Posts: 3,625
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1283 Post(s)
Liked: 1331
The plant in Mexico has had a lot of problems with meeting quality standards, hopefully as time goes on they will become as good as the former Northridge, California site (closed). To my knowledge nothing is made in the US anymore.

There is an article in Fortune magazine (I'm pretty sure it was fortune) where the CEO laid out his vision. Northridge manufacturing was shut down to send a message to the company that things will be different under his leadership. Lots of top engineers have been let go (Jerry Morro, Greg Timbers, etc).

It's all here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...th-JBL-is-Over

______________________________________
Home Theater:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/15-gen...sement-ht.html

Last edited by NWCgrad; 10-05-2016 at 05:23 PM.
NWCgrad is offline  
post #26 of 29 Old 10-05-2016, 06:18 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
The plant in Mexico has had a lot of problems with meeting quality standards, hopefully as time goes on they will become as good as the former Northridge, California site (closed). To my knowledge nothing is made in the US anymore.

There is an article in Fortune magazine (I'm pretty sure it was fortune) where the CEO laid out his vision. Northridge manufacturing was shut down to send a message to the company that things will be different under his leadership. Lots of top engineers have been let go (Jerry Morro, Greg Timbers, etc).

It's all here: http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...th-JBL-is-Over
Yeah that is sad. Here is the one about Jerry. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad-day-for-JBL

What is JBL doing?
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #27 of 29 Old 10-05-2016, 06:51 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
notnyt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 10,184
Mentioned: 310 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3724 Post(s)
Liked: 3690
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
If you switched back and forth between different horns, you might not have liked the one you changed to. When you went back to the original, it might have sounded better due to the horn.

I don't think there are any soft parts around the titanium on that driver are there?
ti cds actually increase in distortion as they break in due to work hardening of the metallic foil surround.

This is documented in the be diaphragm white paper.

https://materion.com/~/media/Files/P...PAPERFINAL.pdf

the truextent be diaphragms use a special polymer surround to prevent this



You can see the ti diaphragm surround here


Last edited by notnyt; 10-05-2016 at 06:56 PM.
notnyt is offline  
post #28 of 29 Old 10-05-2016, 11:10 PM - Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
AudyoVidyo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 285
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 90 Post(s)
Liked: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
ti cds actually increase in distortion as they break in due to work hardening of the metallic foil surround.

This is documented in the be diaphragm white paper.

https://materion.com/~/media/Files/P...PAPERFINAL.pdf

the truextent be diaphragms use a special polymer surround to prevent this



You can see the ti diaphragm surround here

Wow what is that? A 4" diaphragm? Yes I can definitely see the difference. So do the metallic surround ones just break after a while?
AudyoVidyo is offline  
post #29 of 29 Old 11-07-2016, 11:26 PM
Senior Member
 
Kwikas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Melbourne Australia
Posts: 250
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 54 Post(s)
Liked: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by AudyoVidyo View Post
Yeah that is sad. Here is the one about Jerry. http://www.audioheritage.org/vbullet...ad-day-for-JBL

What is JBL doing?
Did you get the problems sorted out?
Kwikas is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off