No bass with music - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
Forum Jump: 
 62Likes
Reply
 
Thread Tools
post #31 of 276 Old 09-20-2016, 04:14 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
Almost got it....you want 5dB steps on the left hand side though. Adjust the limits so that you have 5dB steps and so that the trace is roughly centered in the window. Since you are measuring at ear bleeding levels (really, 120dB? Why??) you might want to try 65-135dB on the vertical limits.

But, just looking at this, I don't see anything that would be neutering your bass with music.
Maybe Ill readjust them later, but not now. I should just move the file over so I can do it on my main computer, but its too late for that.

Anyway, the 120 sweep was seeing how loud I could get them just because. Its loud, but I have heard louder, which means I want more

I have an idea of a way to show you guys whats going on. Maybe I will get to it today, we'll see.


Sean
Broke EF is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #32 of 276 Old 09-20-2016, 04:28 PM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,142
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5382 Post(s)
Liked: 10075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke EF View Post
Maybe Ill readjust them later, but not now. I should just move the file over so I can do it on my main computer, but its too late for that.

Anyway, the 120 sweep was seeing how loud I could get them just because. Its loud, but I have heard louder, which means I want more

I have an idea of a way to show you guys whats going on. Maybe I will get to it today, we'll see.

Sean
Sean,

This may be what you are already thinking of doing, but have you tried playing some music at a significant volume, and measuring the response with REW? Second, when you say the bass sounds neutered, can you describe the approximate frequency range where you find it lacking. For instance, is it below about 50Hz, or in the mid-bass chest thump range from about 50 to 100Hz, or both. I might try listening to, and measuring, a scene from a movie with loud bass, followed immediately by a song which you know has loud bass, for both a measurement and listening comparison.

I haven't a clue what the problem may be, although like you I suspect it has to be some sort of setting issue, but it would at least be helpful to know more specifically where the bass is lacking with music.

Regards,
Mike
Alan P likes this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #33 of 276 Old 09-20-2016, 05:40 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,662
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2367 Post(s)
Liked: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke EF View Post
I have an idea of a way to show you guys whats going on.
Use the RTA (Real Time Analyzer).
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #34 of 276 Old 09-20-2016, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
OK, I am sitting here ready to go. Give me a good movie scene to try, and a good song to try.

Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #35 of 276 Old 09-20-2016, 06:47 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Well I did some testing really quick.

Here is Sail by AWOLNATION



And this is the beginning of Edge Of Tomorrow, just the first crazy part



No changes to any settings. Music came from Spotify on the HTPC just so I could look for specific songs, and the movie was played from my Roku4 on Plex. Not ideal for either, and probably not the best examples for each, but its something.


Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #36 of 276 Old 09-20-2016, 07:37 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
corradizo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: near Chicago
Posts: 3,415
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked: 1584
Can you try the moving mic rta thing I posted? It's super easy. Hold mic in your hand vertically and slowly move it around your head while sitting at the mlp and seating area as far as your arms can reach, while playing pink noise and set averaging to forever while recording on the rta at 1/48th Oct smoothing. After 60 or so averages the graph settle. This will give you a better picture of what your ears are really hearing imo.
corradizo is offline  
post #37 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 05:03 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Can you try the moving mic rta thing I posted? It's super easy. Hold mic in your hand vertically and slowly move it around your head while sitting at the mlp and seating area as far as your arms can reach, while playing pink noise and set averaging to forever while recording on the rta at 1/48th Oct smoothing. After 60 or so averages the graph settle. This will give you a better picture of what your ears are really hearing imo.
I can, and maybe I will today when I get home, but that's why I said I need someone to come hear it. It is not a small difference at all, movies are going to take my house down and music will barely rattle **** on the shelf in the next room. I spent around an hour trying to find the most bass heavy songs I could, and that was the best one and it was still "meh". Most songs would be around 90db on the RTA, while the movie would get over 110db with everything being the same.

To put some kind of figure on it, I would say movies are easily twice the bass output of music. Also, not an apple to apple comparison, but music on my other computer which uses the Quarks and Voxel sub has a TON of bass. That probably has more output than my main system, and that's a single 5.25" sub! I keep that adjusted to have the sub as low as possible before its off too. That does have its max output around 30-40htz, but is still far less than the 4 12" subs in the other room!


Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #38 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 05:31 AM
Senior Member
 
DustinF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 65
"I think on mine I just set the front speakers to large"

Try setting to small and cross over to 80 as a test.
Or enable to the extra bass setting which allows bass to go to large speakers and subwoofers.

For PEQ set to flat.
DustinF is offline  
post #39 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 05:43 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinF View Post
"I think on mine I just set the front speakers to large"

Try setting to small and cross over to 80 as a test.
Or enable to the extra bass setting which allows bass to go to large speakers and subwoofers.

For PEQ set to flat.
I've done all of those things already.


Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #40 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 05:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
corradizo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: near Chicago
Posts: 3,415
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked: 1584


Might as well just upgrade. The new bass system apple built is sure to bring the brown note.
corradizo is offline  
post #41 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 06:00 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,662
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2367 Post(s)
Liked: 1990
Am I the only one who thinks those graphs look fine?
The intro to EoT is, as you say, crazy. There are very few other movies, and absolutely no music, that will measure like that.
Bass in music is in that 30Hz to 40Hz range.
http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm
You're already 20dB hot. I think you're listening for something that's not there.
HST, I think if you ramp your house curve more out to 100Hz (rather than have an abrupt peak), it will sound better to you (for everything).
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
post #42 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Am I the only one who thinks those graphs look fine?
The intro to EoT is, as you say, crazy. There are very few other movies, and absolutely no music, that will measure like that.
Bass in music is in that 30Hz to 40Hz range.
http://www.independentrecording.net/...in_display.htm
You're already 20dB hot. I think you're listening for something that's not there.
HST, I think if you ramp your house curve more out to 100Hz (rather than have an abrupt peak), it will sound better to you (for everything).
Michael
I agree! Well I mostly agree. I think my graphs are fine, and I have plenty of performance. Where I don't agree is that I am listening for something that is not there. I have heard other home systems that have a LOT more bass with music than mine does, and they are using Pandora, or Spotify, or streaming from a phone. Not anything that has been enhanced at all, just a lot of bass. My system is louder than theirs, but I cant get similar bass when I have music on. Even if I crank everything all the way up it is very weak compared to movies. My system is nice and flat, which I know is not ideal for house shaking bass, but I cant even adjust it to get that which makes no sense to me.

I need @eng-399 to come by and hear it, and see if he can explain it better. The charts are misleading IMO, because it seems like music is pretty close, but its really not. Even the wife agrees, the difference is massive. It doesn't compute in my head that I can get over 120db with sweeps and movies, but even turning things way up from those settings I can barely get 110db with bass heavy music.


Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #43 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 06:54 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,662
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2367 Post(s)
Liked: 1990
I think if you measure those other systems you'll find they have a lot more in the 50Hz to 60Hz range that you're missing.
Unfortunately, I don't think there's a way for you to manually change YPAO's settings (one big advantage of MCACC).
Not that it will change anything, but have you done the firmware update 1.8?
You may want to play with the bass adjustment while measuring and see what it affects.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
post #44 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 07:32 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
eng-399's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Plainfield IL.
Posts: 5,508
Mentioned: 533 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2420 Post(s)
Liked: 4971
eng-399 is offline  
post #45 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 08:15 AM
Senior Member
 
DustinF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Do you have a music dvd or blu-ray, such as The Eagles?

Just curious if playing that makes a difference.
The only reason I mention this, is that it would narrow down issue.

The graphs look fine, so it would be interesting to have a 2nd pair of ears listen.

I'm wondering if your software for playing movies is bumping everything hot compared to everything else.

I would still do a full factory reset on receiver to make sure you don't have any scenes that are kicking in that you aren't aware of.
DustinF is offline  
post #46 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 08:27 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,142
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5382 Post(s)
Liked: 10075
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke EF View Post
I agree! Well I mostly agree. I think my graphs are fine, and I have plenty of performance. Where I don't agree is that I am listening for something that is not there. I have heard other home systems that have a LOT more bass with music than mine does, and they are using Pandora, or Spotify, or streaming from a phone. Not anything that has been enhanced at all, just a lot of bass. My system is louder than theirs, but I cant get similar bass when I have music on. Even if I crank everything all the way up it is very weak compared to movies. My system is nice and flat, which I know is not ideal for house shaking bass, but I cant even adjust it to get that which makes no sense to me.

I need @eng-399 to come by and hear it, and see if he can explain it better. The charts are misleading IMO, because it seems like music is pretty close, but its really not. Even the wife agrees, the difference is massive. It doesn't compute in my head that I can get over 120db with sweeps and movies, but even turning things way up from those settings I can barely get 110db with bass heavy music.

Sean
Hi Sean,

I believe you when you say that looking at the graphs doesn't tell the whole story, and that you hear a lot more bass with movies than you do with music. But, based on the comparison graphs you did, I am less likely now to think that this is a setting issue. If your subs weren't operating properly with music, I don't see how you could have gotten those big peaks between about 25Hz and 45Hz. So, I think it's more likely a bass management issue, or perhaps slightly an expectation issue than it is a setting problem.

One of the reasons I had suggested earlier that you experiment with your crossovers, going both under and over the nominal 80Hz you are using, was to determine if your subs are just not providing as much mid-bass as you want. I think you might be more likely to notice that lack of mid-bass with music, and in the song you measured that certainly seemed to be where you were lacking. There have been some good discussions on other threads recently regarding the importance of the speakers in supporting the subs in the mid-bass region.

I would try setting a 60Hz crossover with my Cantons, and also use the bass tone control to add 3db or 4db of bass boost with music, just to see if that gets you closer to what you are hoping to hear. You can always make adjustments when going back and forth between movies and music. I do. Some people have been adding MBM's (mid-bass modules) to their systems lately to increase chest punch in that critical 50Hz to 100Hz region. That's where I am speculating that you aren't getting the bass you want with music. I think it's possible that you can get a significant increase in bass by dropping the crossover on your fronts to 60Hz, and using a manual bass boost with your tone control. If not, an MBM that concentrates on that mid-bass region might be an inexpensive solution. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...-response.html

Regards,
Mike

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.

Last edited by mthomas47; 09-21-2016 at 08:58 AM.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #47 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 10:29 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinF View Post
Do you have a music dvd or blu-ray, such as The Eagles?

Just curious if playing that makes a difference.
The only reason I mention this, is that it would narrow down issue.

The graphs look fine, so it would be interesting to have a 2nd pair of ears listen.

I'm wondering if your software for playing movies is bumping everything hot compared to everything else.

I would still do a full factory reset on receiver to make sure you don't have any scenes that are kicking in that you aren't aware of.
I do not, but I would like to add some concert Blurays to the collection. I am open to suggestions for well mastered music Blurays or DVD's. The closest thing I have right now is "Straight Outta Compton", maybe I can compare a song played during the movie to it being played some other way?

I will check for firmware, and maybe do a factory reset today. I did a factory reset recently since a friend of mine was borrowing it for a while. When I got it back I did a factory reset just because, and also checked for firmware. That was maybe about a year ago? Probably less than that, but I cant remember exactly.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
Hi Sean,

I believe you when you say that looking at the graphs doesn't tell the whole story, and that you hear a lot more bass with movies than you do with music. But, based on the comparison graphs you did, I am less likely now to think that this is a setting issue. If your subs weren't operating properly with music, I don't see how you could have gotten those big peaks between about 25Hz and 45Hz. So, I think it's more likely a bass management issue, or perhaps slightly an expectation issue than it is a setting problem.

One of the reasons I had suggested earlier that you experiment with your crossovers, going both under and over the nominal 80Hz you are using, was to determine if your subs are just not providing as much mid-bass as you want. I think you might be more likely to notice that lack of mid-bass with music, and in the song you measured that certainly seemed to be where you were lacking. There have been some good discussions on other threads recently regarding the importance of the speakers in supporting the subs in the mid-bass region.

I would try setting a 60Hz crossover with my Cantons, and also use the bass tone control to add 3db or 4db of bass boost with music, just to see if that gets you closer to what you are hoping to hear. You can always make adjustments when going back and forth between movies and music. I do. Some people have been adding MBM's (mid-bass modules) to their systems lately to increase chest punch in that critical 50Hz to 100Hz region. That's where I am speculating that you aren't getting the bass you want with music. I think it's possible that you can get a significant increase in bass by dropping the crossover on your fronts to 60Hz, and using a manual bass boost with your tone control. If not, an MBM that concentrates on that mid-bass region might be an inexpensive solution. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...-response.html

Regards,
Mike
It could be an expectation problem, but its strange to me that I am very satisfied with the movie bass and very disappointed with music bass. It's hard to figure out what the "setting" problem could be too since (for an example) I can run a sweep though the HTPC, and then play music through the HTPC, and hear vastly different results. As far as the receiver and the amps are concerned, nothing has changed. Both of those put out 2 channel audio, and they are both (obviously) on the same input. Just weird. That is why I am kind of against changing settings, or levels, etc. If I can get over 110db all the way though the range, I shouldn't have to bump some range, or change settings, or add more mid-bass IMO. I could see if I had a 10db dip between 30-50htz that I would have weak bass for music, but on an REW sweep it is right there along with above and below it.

To go along with that, I have heard lots of bass on other systems including my own. My other computer can easily have overbearing bass compared to the rest of the audio, and that is with one tiny sub and one tiny amp. I know it is strongest in that 30-50htz range, but it still has WAY less output than the main room of course. My buddies system does probably have a hump around 30htz (just a guess), but his house bumps like a car with a system listening to music. He has a single SVS PB12-NSD, and EMPTek towers, and he has his set up for double bass. I cant see the towers supplying that amount of bass even though they are far more capable than my speakers. I know my subs have WAY more output than his, and no matter what I do I cant get the same bass as his system.

Let me put this out there another way. When I watch movies I am 8 clicks down from full volume on both channels of the inuke, and the subs are at 0 in the AVR. That is the settings you see for the charts above. If I want to get crazy I will go 2 up from there (6 down from full), and even in the all out setting that gets be ~120db I am still 4 clicks from full volume and +5 on the subs in the AVR. I have turned the AVR to +10 on both sub channels, AND turned the inuke all the way up, AND turned the AVR to +5 (something I cant even do for sweeps/movie), and its still weak in comparison.

One more thing I just thought of. If I run YAPO on my receiver it will set my fronts to large. If I try and do a sweep at 0 it will shut off instantly. I can get to about -6 if I remember correctly before it just shuts itself off. All of my speakers except the surround backs are powered by an Emotiva amp, which I have off for sweeps, so it cant be the speaker itself causing that problem. I never looked into it any more since if I set it back to small its no problem.

That's long enough for now

Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #48 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 10:42 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
LastButNotLeast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: 08077
Posts: 9,662
Mentioned: 67 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2367 Post(s)
Liked: 1990
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustinF View Post
Do you have a music dvd or blu-ray, such as The Eagles?

I'm wondering if your software for playing movies is bumping everything hot compared to everything else.
Are you playing movies using a BDP or the HTPC?
Even a CD (remember those?) played through the same source as movies (BDP or HTPC) will be diagnostic.
Sorry you're going through all this, but, until eng gets there, we're all doing this long-distance.
Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
Welcome to AVS - Get out while you still can!
Don't guess, measure: https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...l#post22789786
LastButNotLeast is offline  
post #49 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 10:55 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
corradizo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: near Chicago
Posts: 3,415
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked: 1584
Maybe I missed it but are the graphs you posted using channel 4 only (lfe?). I wondered if you did a Channel 1 + Channel 2 (L+R + subs when speakers set to small) sweep in rew what it would look like? My thinking is maybe you are getting the low booms from movies and getting cancellation in the midbass that goes unnoticed in movies, but it's noticed with music. Just a hunch.
corradizo is offline  
post #50 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 11:05 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,421
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6148 Post(s)
Liked: 5373
I'm gonna guess that this going to end up being a sub timing issue.

Have you played with the sub delays at all to try and improve the bass with music? Is each sub in each pair equidistant to the MLP? How are you setting delays now?

I have four subs as well and when my timing wasn't tweaked just right, movies would give me the big rumbles but music was weaksauce.
Alan P is offline  
post #51 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Are you playing movies using a BDP or the HTPC?
Even a CD (remember those?) played through the same source as movies (BDP or HTPC) will be diagnostic.
Sorry you're going through all this, but, until eng gets there, we're all doing this long-distance.
Michael
Both, and the Roku

I have played CD's and its more of the same. I will try another one today as long as I remember to take some out of my car when I park it.

Like I have said, its more of an annoyance than an actual problem. I appreciate you guys all trying to figure it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Maybe I missed it but are the graphs you posted using channel 4 only (lfe?). I wondered if you did a Channel 1 + Channel 2 (L+R + subs when speakers set to small) sweep in rew what it would look like? My thinking is maybe you are getting the low booms from movies and getting cancellation in the midbass that goes unnoticed in movies, but it's noticed with music. Just a hunch.
Graphs are all subs only. If I was getting cancellation wouldn't I see it in my sweeps? I am pretty sure there is some cancellation when the mains are on, but since I plan on changing them soon I pretty much just ignored that small issue for now. That is part of why all of my sweeps are only the subs, just remove a variable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan P View Post
I'm gonna guess that this going to end up being a sub timing issue.

Have you played with the sub delays at all to try and improve the bass with music? Is each sub in each pair equidistant to the MLP? How are you setting delays now?

I have four subs as well and when my timing wasn't tweaked just right, movies would give me the big rumbles but music was weaksauce.
Delays are a tricky subject. I think I went over it earlier in this thread, but I have never seen an improvement while changing delay. I have tried going up and down on each set of subs, and in the receiver and in the inuke, anything I did only ever made my response worse.

It does seem like a cancellation since I see it on any source, which SHOULD remove a lot of variables in settings and such. Like I said before though, shouldn't I see a cancellation in my sweeps?


Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #52 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 11:35 AM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
corradizo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: near Chicago
Posts: 3,415
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked: 1584
If your measurements are just subs you wouldn't. Once you turn on the mains you could be getting caverns in the crossover area when L and R are playing.
corradizo is offline  
post #53 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 11:38 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,421
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6148 Post(s)
Liked: 5373
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke EF View Post
Delays are a tricky subject. I think I went over it earlier in this thread, but I have never seen an improvement while changing delay. I have tried going up and down on each set of subs, and in the receiver and in the inuke, anything I did only ever made my response worse.
Put the REW gear away and adjust your delays until the subs sound good. Sometimes having the subs just a bit out of phase will increase TR (tactile response). In my system, Audyssey SubEQ HT sets my two pairs of subs to 18.5' and 11.2'. If I change the rear subs to 5.2' my TR increases exponentially. Here's a few threads discussing this sort of thing:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...se-thread.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...st-thread.html
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...-response.html

Only after the subs sound good to your ears, then pull the REW rig back out and see where you stand.

Keep in mind that if you do run the subs out of phase, this will necessitate a gain/trim increase due to the drop in SPL.


Quote:
It does seem like a cancellation since I see it on any source, which SHOULD remove a lot of variables in settings and such. Like I said before though, shouldn't I see a cancellation in my sweeps?
Not necessarily. I have adjusted delays with massive TR increases with absolutely no change in the FR (although my 11.2'/5.2' example above did cause some variation). You just need to experiment.
mthomas47 likes this.
Alan P is offline  
post #54 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 11:39 AM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,421
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6148 Post(s)
Liked: 5373
Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
If your measurements are just subs you wouldn't. Once you turn on the mains you could be getting caverns in the crossover area when L and R are playing.
+1 to this as well.
Alan P is offline  
post #55 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 11:58 AM
AVS ***** Member
 
mthomas47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 8,142
Mentioned: 324 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5382 Post(s)
Liked: 10075
I think you are on a roll today, Alan!
Alan P likes this.

GUIDE TO SUBWOOFER CALIBRATION AND BASS PREFERENCES

* The Guide linked above is a comprehensive guide to Audio & HT systems, including:
Speaker placements & Room treatments; HT calibration & Room EQ; Room gain; Bass
Preferences; Subwoofer Buyer's Guide: Sealed/ported; ID subs; Subwoofer placement.
mthomas47 is online now  
post #56 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 01:17 PM
AVS Forum Addicted Member
 
Alan P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: South Dakota
Posts: 11,421
Mentioned: 104 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6148 Post(s)
Liked: 5373
Quote:
Originally Posted by mthomas47 View Post
I think you are on a roll today, Alan!
Slow day at work.
Alan P is offline  
post #57 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 04:33 PM
Member
 
gangrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 193
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked: 39
I can extract a song off the straight outta compton DVD, and send you it as both a 5.1 ac3 file and a 2 channel mp3 if you want. Then you would have the same source in two formats for testing. Or if there is a scene you would prefer from another movie I could do the same if I have the DVD.
Broke EF likes this.
gangrew is offline  
post #58 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 07:19 PM - Thread Starter
Advanced Member
 
Broke EF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Elgin IL
Posts: 652
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 235 Post(s)
Liked: 340
Quote:
Originally Posted by gangrew View Post
I can extract a song off the straight outta compton DVD, and send you it as both a 5.1 ac3 file and a 2 channel mp3 if you want. Then you would have the same source in two formats for testing. Or if there is a scene you would prefer from another movie I could do the same if I have the DVD.
Ill take whatever! I think this will help settle it for me.

I think I just need MOAR SUBS!!!!!!!!!!


Sean
Broke EF is offline  
post #59 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 08:36 PM
AVS Forum Special Member
 
corradizo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: near Chicago
Posts: 3,415
Mentioned: 81 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1527 Post(s)
Liked: 1584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Broke EF View Post
Ill take whatever! I think this will help settle it for me.

I think I just need MOAR SUBS!!!!!!!!!!


Sean
24 - 24" BHS should cover it.
Broke EF likes this.
corradizo is offline  
post #60 of 276 Old 09-21-2016, 09:34 PM
Senior Member
 
DustinF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 430
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 47 Post(s)
Liked: 65
Until factory reset is done and a ypao calibration minus the large setting for front speakers is done, I wouldn't throw spaghetti at the wall.

You can rule out speakers as a problem, but not subwoofer location.
Like I said earlier, you have too many variables going on right now, to narrow this down.
Start from scratch with what you know works.

Right now, no source works. Make sure the source works in your other system, then bring it back. Most would prefer a non pc source to reduce issues with software player.

Track each setting in receiver and report your findings. So far I haven't read about turning off straight or adding extra bass.

If these settings don't change the output, then there may be something wrong with the receiver with 2 channel audio. That's why I mentioned the dvd or blu-ray disk for testing.

The last issue may be that you are measuring spl, but there is more to sound than just that. You very well could be experiencing a null in the 50-100 hz range due to placement of the subs and not being close enough to them.
Movies will of course go much lower and if you are running hot, then you will feel this. But music requires a higher punch because you won't feel 50-100 hz unless your subwoofers can push enough air into your position.

You don't have to have a music blu-ray, but I do suggest Eagles if you can pick it up. Any movie with a good sound track should give you an indication. Try Purple Rain, O Brother, Where Art Thou, Pulp Fiction, Guardians of the Galaxy, Rocky III, etc.

Last edited by DustinF; 09-21-2016 at 09:47 PM.
DustinF is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply DIY Speakers and Subs

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off