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post #1 of 50 Old 11-08-2016, 06:53 PM - Thread Starter
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DIYSG Custom Vented 1299 Build - Advice?

Hey all,

I’ve been lurking for some time now and I think I’ve gathered enough info to start my first post!

I'm currently working with a room that's approximately 14x14x8, but I'm overdesigning a bit to account for an eventual move to a larger house (and larger theater space). Here's a rough sketch of the current layout. The door next to the right speaker is an exterior door, and there's a 47inx8ft opening next to the left speaker that leads to the rest of the house. Equipment will go in the small closet toward the rear of the room, which I'm still working out details for cooling.





So I want to build a custom DIYSG 1299 LCR setup using a ported design but built around the sealed baffle. I believe it will make things easier for me to integrate a removable grille.

First of all, here’s a sketch of my intended design. I'm hoping I'm not shooting myself in the foot here with the height disparity between the center and L/R, and the screen being that high... I estimated listening height at 36 inches.




The first thing I did was to hit the Eminence site to determine their enclosure recommendations.
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/Delta_12B_cab.pdf
Large Vented Cabinet
Vb=2.2 cu.ft
V(total)=2.361 cu.ft
F3=64.53 Hz

At this point I'm thinking I'll need to target 4.722 (2.361x2) cubic feet net, after figuring for all driver/bracing/port displacements. (Assuming of course I intend to build to their suggested design)

Now I'm off to rip out some numbers in Excel. For the moment, I'm just using port dimenions as given by Eminence for a 65Hz tuning frequency. I took a SWAG at displacement for the SEOS, and figured 1/2 of a solid board for each brace.




I decided to punch these numbers into WinISD, and play around a bit with port tuning. And this is the point where I could use some feedback from the community.

I get significantly different port lengths depending on whose calculator I use. At the end of the day I'd like to use flared ports, but I can't even get numbers to match up using all straight round ports.

Another question for those with more experience with these drivers: Should I consider lowering the tuning frequency? I'm not sure what the stock tuning is when ordering the pre-fab kit. I'll be designing subs to go along with this setup, but I'm unsure what that will be just yet. I keep thinking I want to try a 4x18" IB setup (2 manifolds, 2 drivers each), but I may just stick with more traditional enclosures.

So can someone check my math and numbers here, and let me know if I'm even close to barking up the right tree?





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post #2 of 50 Old 11-09-2016, 03:46 PM
 
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Interested and following...
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post #3 of 50 Old 11-11-2016, 09:15 AM
 
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DIYSG Custom Vented 1299 Build - Advice?

Check your numbers that have Meters. Make sure you change mm and square cm from EM specs to Meters.

Last edited by [email protected]; 11-12-2016 at 03:35 PM.
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post #4 of 50 Old 11-12-2016, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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OK so playing with things again today.

Turned out I was using an old version of WinISD, and I might have input the TS parameters wrong too. So I'm now on the latest version and was careful to get the TS parameters input per their instructions, letting WinISD calculate many of the numbers I had manually input previously.




I also came upon a tech note from JL that described a common vent tuning calculation mistake.
http://www.jlaudio.com/header/Suppor...e+Ports/287541

So I dusted off my algebra skills and revised my excel worksheet...




At Eminence's given recommended tuning frequency of 57.32Hz, my excel spits out 5.52" versus WinISD's length of 5.49". Close enough!

Now that I'm comfortable that I'm working with a correct model, the next thing I need to figure is what I stand to gain by monkeying with the tuning frequency and/or enclosure volume. Anyone care to weigh in on that one? I can play with graphs all day, but advice based on experience with these specific drivers would be amazing!

@Erich H ?
@tuxedocivic ?
I know you guys are busy.
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post #5 of 50 Old 11-12-2016, 08:31 PM
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Since you're going to all that effort, why not lower the surrounds and rear surrounds and put four speaks in the ceiling for Atmos? If your room is big enough for 7.1 it can handle 7.1.4 👍😎!

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post #6 of 50 Old 11-14-2016, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, more playing today.

Ran across a thread where someone built 74" tall towers, estimated ~7ft^3 and tuned to 33Hz. I don't think I can cram that much speaker into this space, not to mention there would be a huge gap in driver height to the center channel at that point.

So getting back to reality and playing with port tuning options... With a 16" deep cabinet, my port length can't be longer than ~8.5" and still maintain proper clearances. (6" port for towers) That limits my lowest tuning frequency to about 50Hz at 4.88ft^3.

WinISD comparing different tuning options with this enclosure volume:
4.88ft^3 not including port displacement
250W input at 10ft
Black = Sealed
Blue = 57.32 (Eminence Reference)
Red = 55
Green = 50






Everything above compared to 7ft^3 at 35Hz for giggles. (Orange)
@partcrash you're a nut!



I'm seeing some potential issues with cone excursion, which might settle with a proper HPF. But port velocities look OK.

Anyone have thoughts I'm not considering here?
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post #7 of 50 Old 11-14-2016, 07:36 PM
 
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DIYSG Custom Vented 1299 Build - Advice?

At 7cu ft, tuned for 50hz that thing is a mid bass monster, although below 40hz it falls off at a 4th order like nobody's business. An aggressive HP would be needed to keep cones from blowing up and hurting movie goers. Lol. Those woofers are good stuff just aren't built for high excursion for low freq content. It will do it, but that 35hz tune curve is just not my idea of a good time, HP or not. Look at the excursion plot for that. It's definitely pretty "sporty". Following your work. Well done!
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post #8 of 50 Old 12-06-2016, 10:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Still playing around with dims and tuning (I'm OCD like that).
But I think I'm going to end up with cabs at 48x14.75x16 and tuned to 55Hz.

I pulled the trigger the other day on components, so the next item of business is crossover! I've built my own PCBs in the past but why re-invent the wheel if I don't have to?

@ja00
I got your PM but apparently I don't have enough posts to respond.

@mtg90
Was going to PM you but I can't send PMs yet.

I'm electrically inclined, so I just need the boards. Help please?
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post #9 of 50 Old 12-09-2016, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Welp, I screwed up.

I ordered flared Precision ports, and hadn't realized the flare was so huge on them. Even the 4" vents don't really nest well on the stock 1299 14.75" baffle...

I think massaging the dimensions makes them look a little goofy.

The way I see it, I have 2 options here.
1. Bite the bullet and rework overall baffle dimensions. I'm good with a router, so I could re-make a new 1-piece baffle if needed. Or scab the extra needed material on the sides.
2. Scrap the flared ports for the straight variety.

Opinions? Sketch below of a possible layout using the larger flared vents. The faint white lines show the stock 1299 baffle dimensions to highlight the extra I'd need to scab onto the edges.

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post #10 of 50 Old 12-10-2016, 07:01 AM
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I don't think you really need dual 4" ports on each one do you?

Can you put the ports on the back of the left and right speaker and then used a sealed center channel?

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post #11 of 50 Old 12-11-2016, 10:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I don't think you really need dual 4" ports on each one do you?

Can you put the ports on the back of the left and right speaker and then used a sealed center channel?
Those are actually 6" ports for the towers, 4" for the center. I was aiming to get the LCR combo as close as possible to same design specs. (within reason)
So the center has 4-4" ports and the towers have 2-6" ports. That keeps ports areas in the same ballpark while also keeping some symetry on the center.

To stay under 5% speed of sound (about 17 m/s) on port velocity, WinISD says I need the port area. Using a 2nd order Butterworth HPF at 50Hz, here's a comparison between the original design and downsizing the ports. So the question is will I still be good with port velocities that exceed 5%mach but stay under 10%mach???

In the tower's case I could do either twin 4" or a single 6". Then to match I'd likely do quad 3" for the center.

Of course there's the option you mentioned of rear-firing. If I do that then I can't butt them against the wall. Not a dealbreaker but I'd like to not encroach on another 6" or better worth of floor space if I don't have to. Also briefly considering down-firing.





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post #12 of 50 Old 12-11-2016, 10:53 AM
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Your numbers might be off, I'm not sure. You definitely won't need dual 6" ports for two 12" pro audio woofers. There was another member that built the 1299 in towers and I believe he used three 3" ports. Maybe the designer can chime in with some better ideas.

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post #13 of 50 Old 12-11-2016, 06:46 PM
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Hey, sorry Ive been out of touch wuth the forums lately. Add a HPF for crossing to the subs and the vent velocity will go down cobsiderably.

My youtube channel: Impulse Audio
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post #14 of 50 Old 12-12-2016, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Hey, sorry Ive been out of touch wuth the forums lately. Add a HPF for crossing to the subs and the vent velocity will go down cobsiderably.
Those plots are shown with a 2nd order BW HPF at 50Hz. I'm making an assumption here since I don't know for sure what type/slope/Q filter gets applied by my Marantz pre/pro (and they don't document it anywhere). So I thought BW/12db/.707 would be safe, with the potential that it could have a steeper slope.
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post #15 of 50 Old 12-12-2016, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
At 7cu ft, tuned for 50hz that thing is a mid bass monster, although below 40hz it falls off at a 4th order like nobody's business. An aggressive HP would be needed to keep cones from blowing up and hurting movie goers. Lol. Those woofers are good stuff just aren't built for high excursion for low freq content. It will do it, but that 35hz tune curve is just not my idea of a good time, HP or not. Look at the excursion plot for that. It's definitely pretty "sporty". Following your work. Well done!
If you are ever in the Boston region- you are more than welcome to come hear them. I hope your head reattaches easily

On the subject- build them as big as your space allows and install adjustable ports. Then experiment.
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post #16 of 50 Old 12-12-2016, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ZX3ST View Post
Those plots are shown with a 2nd order BW HPF at 50Hz. I'm making an assumption here since I don't know for sure what type/slope/Q filter gets applied by my Marantz pre/pro (and they don't document it anywhere). So I thought BW/12db/.707 would be safe, with the potential that it could have a steeper slope.
But your tuning is 50 or 55hz or something isnt it? So when you cross to the subs youll be at least 60hz. Or lower the tuning. Either one will reduce velocities more than you are getting right now.

And what wattage are you using to get that? You may not ever get there!

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post #17 of 50 Old 12-13-2016, 08:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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But your tuning is 50 or 55hz or something isnt it? So when you cross to the subs youll be at least 60hz. Or lower the tuning. Either one will reduce velocities more than you are getting right now.

And what wattage are you using to get that? You may not ever get there!
Tuning was originally at 55Hz, yes.

I lowered the port tuning to 40Hz. A single 6" port now has vent velocity in check. Same 2nd order Butterworth HPF at 60Hz. I'm losing out on a little output, but I think I like the curve better. The slope looks very similar to the sealed option, but with another 10Hz low end extension.

What's interesting is that we're still running over xmax from about 50-150hz.

Using 250W input at the moment. I need to reduce to 75W to get xmax under the little red "damage" line. Although to be fair, typical program material content means I can probably get away with the full 250W without too much risk of damage.
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post #18 of 50 Old 12-13-2016, 08:14 PM
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Are you modelling 2 drivers in your sim?
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post #19 of 50 Old 12-13-2016, 08:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you modelling 2 drivers in your sim?
Yep.
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post #20 of 50 Old 12-14-2016, 06:11 AM
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So if modelling two, thats 500 watts?

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post #21 of 50 Old 12-15-2016, 11:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Doesn't WinISD consider everything as a system? As in, 250W input means it will evenly divide between drivers?
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post #22 of 50 Old 12-15-2016, 01:18 PM
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Im not sure. I rarely use winisd.

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post #23 of 50 Old 12-17-2016, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Crossover boards arrived this week. Big thanks to @ja00 for the boards. You saved me a ton of time relearning how to use Eagle!

I'm a little out of practice, as this isn't my cleanest work. But it'll do.

I'm off work for the next few days, so we'll see if I can get the enclosures started. The weather sucks here right now and it'll be interesting picking up MDF without getting it wet.









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post #24 of 50 Old 12-18-2016, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
So if modelling two, thats 500 watts?
I decided to check that today to be sure. If using multiple drivers, the "signal" tab divides whatever is input between the selected number of drivers.

So 2 drivers with 250W input, WinISD models as 2 drivers with 125W input each. Which all makes intuitive sense, but just wanted to confirm.
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post #25 of 50 Old 12-18-2016, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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I think this is going to be the final build design. Outside dims 54h x 14.75w x 15.25d with a doubled front baffle. Which should all work out to approximately 4.877 cubic feet once accounting for drivers and bracing. Towers will get a single 6" port. Center will get 4-3" ports to keep same port area. This is going to take a lot of MDF!

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post #26 of 50 Old 01-09-2017, 08:21 PM
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Any update on these? I recently ordered some 1299's and I'm looking around at the different builds.
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post #27 of 50 Old 01-16-2017, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Any update on these? I recently ordered some 1299's and I'm looking around at the different builds.
Nothing to show just yet. Been on the back burner over the holidays.

I'm picking up the MDF tomorrow afternoon and will hopefully have something to share soon.
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post #28 of 50 Old 01-19-2017, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quick update.

This is what 7 sheets of 3/4" MDF looks like after all sliced-n-diced.

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post #29 of 50 Old 01-19-2017, 12:40 PM
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Nice shop!! What I wouldn't give for a table saw with that much room.
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post #30 of 50 Old 01-19-2017, 01:32 PM
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^^ Agreed. Looks like the whole workshop is very nice.

@ZX3ST. Care to post a picture showing the entire workshop?
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