SI18 D2 - Help me Decide on Box Design? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 9 Old 12-13-2016, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Question SI18 D2 - Help me Decide on Box Design?

I won't bore everyone with details, but I had to take time off from speaker and sub building, and I've been mostly absent from here for a couple/few years now. HT suffered as well, though my two channel setup has evolved. I'm getting back into the swing of things, and ramping back up for a build - and I need some guidance. There are lots of pieces to this puzzle, so bear with me, I could use some help to get me rolling.

I have a Denon X4000 receiver, it has the two subwoofer outputs. I had trouble getting the amp working, but a repair shop found a bad solder joint and all is fine now.

I have a Maelstrom-X 21" in a giant sealed box (like 15cu I think). I had this running on an old Behringer EP2000 with my old Onkyo, but I can't seem to get this setup running well with the Denon. Sounds too weak.

I have two *new* in box SI 18" D2 that I purchased in 2013 - never got around to building a box for.

Amp wise, I have my old Behringer EP2000

An Ashley 3200 - open box, but *new* unused.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produ...G6URoC1EHw_wcB

I have an open box (Amazon Warehouse) Crown XLS 2502 I just received on Saturday

And since there was that deal on the iNukes yesterday, I also have an iNuke 3000DSP arriving tomorrow.


I have somewhere in storage a used MiniDSP and USB measurement Mic. I'm unsure if the DSP works, and I really need to dig to find the microphone, but I'll find it.

I can build pretty much any box design, and I usually just build boxes off the top of my head, knowing what my internal volume needs to be and working from there. But I know there are plenty of great and proven designs for the SI 18" these days.

The only other hitch is, I'd like to swap these SI 18" between my HT setup, and my audiophile two channel setup to fill in the bottom end, as deep and fast/punchy as possible. My two channel DAC has RCA outs I can use, but they are full range, e.g. no sub-specific crossed-over outputs.

So my questions:

Should I go sealed or ported for the pair of SI 18" D2? If so, which design?
Remember - I want to switch them between HT and two channel.

Which amp/setup should I use for my Maelstrom-X 21" for HT off the Denon x4000?

Which amp/setup should I use for my pair of SI 18" D2? Again, keeping in mind I plan on switching between HT and 2 channel (RCA outs)


I know this is a lot of puzzle pieces, so in advance, I really appreciate any guidance, suggestions.
Right now I'm so overwhelmed, I'm simply thinking about building a pair of sealed boxes for the pair of SI 18" D2, and just trying each amp and seeing what sounds good and being done with it. But I have a feeling while that would work, you guys have already been down this path and can help guide me to a better solution.

Thanks again!

~Eric~

P.S. I've been playing mad scientist with diffusers. The theater/listening room is a bit congested now, but will be sorted out once I finish my latest QRD29 diffuser designs/tests.



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post #2 of 9 Old 12-14-2016, 03:57 AM
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If the Maggies aren't playing, they're radiating like drumskins. At least turn them sideways to your listening position, if they're not in use.

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post #3 of 9 Old 12-14-2016, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anji12305 View Post
If the Maggies aren't playing, they're radiating like drumskins. At least turn them sideways to your listening position, if they're not in use.

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LOL - thanks for that, and you are correct. When I took the photo I was A/Bing them with my Decware MG944 while listening to the new diffuser setup.


So, have I asked an improper question or something? I'm curious that nobody has chimed it in any thoughts beyond the one above.
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post #4 of 9 Old 12-14-2016, 11:18 AM
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If you like ported, look up the "Marty" subs as they are called. They are just slot ported designs. The "full marty" is 11cuft tuned to 17hz. If you want to get every drop out of them look at the stonehammer subwoofer thread. 15cuft net internal and 16hz tune.

Since they are d2 you can power them with an inuke3k dsp each.
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post #5 of 9 Old 12-14-2016, 11:35 AM
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There's so many designs you can choose from. If you have the space I would build a slot ported sub and put it on a small furniture dolly to move around. @derrickdj1 did that and worked out great for him. How big of a box do you feel comfortable with in your room. If you choose a big slot ported design you would gain a lot on the low end. As for what your asking about sealed vs ported I'm not sure because I built my boxes as Big as I could go but now realizing I don't have much room left for a bigger LCR setup so I'm in the middle of finalizing my plans for different boxes behind my screen. Those are 35" wide- 40 inches tall and 25 inches in depth thanks to @LTD02 helping with the new plan. The slot port will be 3" inches tall and run the entire length of the bottom of the box and 3" inches going up if this helps you with your build. My original boxes that I have right now is under my signature.
My vote is go as big as you can.
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post #6 of 9 Old 12-14-2016, 03:28 PM
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I use my mixed setup more for music. So, this is the first priority. If the 21 in. sub is sealed, continue with some large sealed boxes. Ported boxes can work also without a compromise for music since all these boxes will play very low. The ported will be just as quick also.

I have had everything from large dual sealed to large vented to LLT's and all have worked well for music. Right now I'm using the Mini Marty's up next to the Klipsch RF 7 II's. The I Nukes should work great for the SI 18 in. D2 drivers. Your choice on ported or sealed sub rest on how good you and the avr are at integrating everything.
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post #7 of 9 Old 12-16-2016, 05:59 AM
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yours is a little bit of a tricky one in that you don't have any bass management on the two channel system, correct?
how are you hoping to switch back and forth between the two systems? or, is that part of your question?
when you say "fill in the lowend" on the 2 channel rig, do you have some idea of where your mains are rolling off?what kind of music are you looking to enhance the lowend on and how loud are you shooting for?for some reason, when I first saw your setup, I was thinking an open baffle experiment might be interesting as that might provide maximum purity with those drivers, but open baffle doesn't really crush it on the very low end so maybe that would be the wrong direction.
as for the 21", input sensitivity on the ep2000 is around 1.15v, which shouldn't be a problem for most amps (though i don't what the voltage output of yours is in particular and for some reason the manual wasn't loading for me from denon). if in bridged mode, do you have the gain all the way up on channel one and all the way down on channel 2? ...and you thought you had all the questions. :-)

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post #8 of 9 Old 12-16-2016, 07:45 AM
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A suggestion given you reference a MiniDSP is that you CAN use it for your EQ for BOTH systems.

Use one output on each side for your HT with say no lowpass, and the other set for your MUSIC setup with a highpass/lowpass or BOTH to help you fill in the lower end, and dig down to whatever cutoff you want (if you even want one).

Then the only "pain" would be when you switch from HT to Music you'd need to manually change what outputs the RCA cables were connected to on the DSP.

Beyond that, personally for music I prefer sealed. I had ported and it was quite nice for HT, but I feel the sealed sub I replaced it with sounds better.

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post #9 of 9 Old 12-16-2016, 09:36 AM - Thread Starter
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First off, thanks everyone for the responses. Having others chime in has helped me narrow this down a bit already. I really do apprecaite that!

I've been out sick for a few days, and I'm just catching up now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
yours is a little bit of a tricky one in that you don't have any bass management on the two channel system, correct?
how are you hoping to switch back and forth between the two systems? or, is that part of your question?
No bass management on the two channel system. At this point I'm really excited to even have DSP in the iNuke (which I took out of the box and plugged in on Wednesday night). I picked up the Crown 2502 because I thought the high sensitivity input would help with my Denon, and it sounds OK, but after dialing in the iNuke with about a 16hz highpass (using your guide LTD - thanks) and pegging the receiver at 0db on the sub, and the iNuke 3000 all the way up, the bass is closer to what I used to have with my Onkyo...and a little tighter with the ULF rolled off. That said, with the old setup I was 100db @ 10hz at seating position with my old Onkyo + EP2500 + 21" and only occasionally had it flub. Maybe my memory of the sound with my old receiver is off, but this just doesn't sound as house rattling as I remember. I've had friends pull up to my house during movie night, and when they came in they said my siding and soffets were rattling!

As for switching, all I have now is moving cables around. I'm OK with this for the time being - I'm more concerned about getting my system crushing souls again like it used to. If I build the pair of 18" HT D2 I might just leave them connected to the two channel system on the iNuke, and only add them to the HT system for movie nights with friends...leaving the big 21" to day to day HT use.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
when you say "fill in the lowend" on the 2 channel rig, do you have some idea of where your mains are rolling off?what kind of music are you looking to enhance the lowend on and how loud are you shooting for?for some reason, when I first saw your setup, I was thinking an open baffle experiment might be interesting as that might provide maximum purity with those drivers, but open baffle doesn't really crush it on the very low end so maybe that would be the wrong direction.
I've actually got 5 pairs of speakers to choose from for two channel...well, 4 pairs and the Klipsch towers which are a garage sale find that actually work well for HT. I found my UMIK-1 and downloaded the calibration files - I'm hoping to find time this weekend to setup REW and read up on that. I've used it in the past when I built my 21", but only for basic frequency response measurements. Ultimately I'm going to use REW to measure my room and test my sound treatments I build. So I currently have good guesses as to where my two channel speakers roll off, but I'll have measurements soon.

As for filling in the bottom end...most of the high-efficiency "audiophile" speakers I have are pretty weak on the low end. They say 20hz-20khz, but that's not exactly true in the real world. I'm looking to fill in anything from say 15hz to 50hz probably. I listen to pretty much everything. Lately a lot of Folk Rock, blues, acoustic music (rock, jazz, classical acoustic music). Mostly because that's what my speakers excel at. But the bass doesn't have the presence that the rest of my audio spectrum does.

Also, funny you mention OB - I just picked up a pair of 95db efficient full range drivers that I heard at an audio show in October. I typically don't like OB speakers, but these really sounded good.....when filled in with a 15" OB woofer. So your intuition is spot on - the trend of nice sounding full range OB with good boxed woofers is part of what is driving me to finally do something with this pair of 18" drivers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
as for the 21", input sensitivity on the ep2000 is around 1.15v, which shouldn't be a problem for most amps (though i don't what the voltage output of yours is in particular and for some reason the manual wasn't loading for me from denon). if in bridged mode, do you have the gain all the way up on channel one and all the way down on channel 2? ...and you thought you had all the questions. :-)
I'm starting to worry that there is an issue with the Denon. I just downloaded and re-read the manual, and one suggestion in there is to setup the sub for LFE+MAINS. It says the voltage is v1.1 on the Denon, but the Onkyo 805 manual doesn't have voltage listed at all. I remember a thread back in the day where someone measured it, and I thought it was above average.

I've tried the 21" from the subwoofer output of the Denon using all four of the amps listed in my OP (EP2500, Ashley, and now Crown and iNuke). So far the iNuke sounds the best and is closes to what I used to have. I re-ran Audyssey yesterday since I was home sick, and it didn't improve the sub at all, maybe helped the mains sound better, and it dialed down the rear channels a little. Distance measurements came out pretty close. Watched Flight of the Phoenix for the first time in a LONG time, and it sounded really good, just not as huge as with the Onkyo.


But, that's not really the focus of this thread - I was fishing for ideas for the SI 18" D2

I've been reading up on other peoples SI builds, and it seems everyone is gravitating towards the Marty builds. Since I have the house to myself, I can pretty much build anything I want...from IB to LLT or whatever. But I'm trying to avoid cluttering up the room too much more...I don't have an AT screen at this time (that's a few years off I think), so I can't just build a wall of subs like I want to.

So for now, I think I'm going to churn out a sealed box really quickly, just so I have something on the 2nd subwoofer output of the Denon, and I can play with that on my two channel setup while I decide which big ported box to build. If I recall correctly, a 24" cube is good to go with these SI 18HT, right? Then I could build some obnoxious big ported box and see which I like the sound of in my setup, sealed or ported. That will give me time to learn REW and see if my MiniDSP even works.

I'm fine with selling my EP2500 and Ashley amps and getting another iNuke, but I question if the newer class D amp is "better sounding" to an older A/B amp like the Ashley. Right now the DSP is making it easy to sound better, but with REW and some tweaking, a good amp could sound GREAT.

I think I almost have too many options right now. LOL But at least I have a project in my sights - I'll start with a sealed box for the 18" while research more and dial in my system more.

Last edited by Lonely Raven; 12-16-2016 at 09:42 AM.
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