How bad of an idea is it to NOT toe in... - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 45 Old 12-22-2016, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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How bad of an idea is it to NOT toe in...

So, continuing on to the next phase of my build I'm going to be doing left and right with F15's and a centre with an HTM12. I wanted to build all three into an entertainment unit across the front here (using my pictures from my projector thread):



That wall is about 13ft across with the U shaped seating area about the same and the distance from the wall to the furthest and centre part of the seating about something like 14ft. Since I want to build it into a entertainment unit across the wall, stylistically and design wise it would be easier to just make everything flat across the front instead of toeing int the two F15's but since you guys are the experts, I thought I'd ask how much of a bad idea that was... Keep in mind that I'd also be listening to music in the kitchen which is open plan off to the right although I don't think that would matter.

This is what I'm aiming to make, since it will match the unit of this we already have. Imagine all three speakers in the same locations as the doors/drawers, but the left and right moved out with shelving between them and the centre. Will a lip like the one you can see cause issues with the SEOS? If the left and right were toed in but the top was kept rectangular, effectively tucking the SEOS further under the top/lip, would that also be a terrible idea?



In short, yes I'm trying to keep them flat but if you lot start pulling the following face and getting the flamethrowers and daggers out, I'll go back to the drawing board and try and work out how to make it 'pretty'.

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post #2 of 45 Old 12-22-2016, 10:59 PM
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in my own usage,
for movies TV, a slight toe-in
music, if stereo with subs and I'm at the mlp, more toe in. But at 11.5 ft. listening, in my 14ish wide room, plenty good

this is a question for Erich at DIYSG.
you'll love the F-15's
mine are about 66" CTC for the horns. good sound stage - deep. full. wide, never know the C is silent.
HTH
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post #3 of 45 Old 12-22-2016, 11:17 PM
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there are some links in the first post of this thread that explain the theory of toe-in for controlled directivity (waveguide) speakers:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ying-here.html


part of what is going on is the size of the sweetspot increases with toe-in and that is (obviously) more important the more folks there are sharing in the music/movie experience.

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post #4 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 04:31 AM
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I debated on this when building my baffle wall. My entire room is 14ft deep, and 14ft wide. I have finished everything yet, but I kind of wish that I would have built an angled baffle wall with the corners of the baffle wall angled and the L+R speakers toed in, in those angled corners. Unfortunately, the complexity of such an endever did not allow me to do this. While it would have been quiet easy to make the actual wall angled, the problem was that I wanted the speakers hidden behind the screen. So I built it flat. I think you will be ok, but of course, if you have the wood working skills to make toeing in possible, you are better off doing that.
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post #5 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 06:09 AM
 
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Toe-in is critical with a two speaker system, otherwise it's next to impossible to realize imaging that delivers a phantom center effect. If you have a center and the content has center channel information there's less reason to have toe-in, although it won't hurt either.
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post #6 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 06:50 AM
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post #7 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 06:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Toe-in is critical with a two speaker system, otherwise it's next to impossible to realize imaging that delivers a phantom center effect. If you have a center and the content has center channel information there's less reason to have toe-in, although it won't hurt either.
? The dispersion on most speakers is wide enough for center image stability without toe-in. In fact, I once owned a pair of speakers (Paradigm Active 20s) that sounded best toed-out.
The main reason for toe-in is for those seated on either side of the sweet spot. Example: A listener off to the left has the left channel pointed away from him/her and right channel pointed towards them to help alleviate left channel exaggeration.
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post #8 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
there are some links in the first post of this thread that explain the theory of toe-in for controlled directivity (waveguide) speakers:


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ying-here.html


part of what is going on is the size of the sweetspot increases with toe-in and that is (obviously) more important the more folks there are sharing in the music/movie experience.
So if I'm reading that DOPE from HOPE pdf right, ironically the toe in is actually more critical for the off axis people than the centre whereas in my ignorance I assumed it would be the other way round.

In which case, may I propose another possible sacrilege that might help with off axis WITHOUT toeing in? So the other dilemma I was having was that I wanted to get the position of the SEOS up high enough to be over the height of the sofa, but was running into an issue where there wasn't going to be enough gap between the top of the unit and where the bottom of the projection screen starts.

Since we're sitting relatively close, this would push the 130" diagonal screen up some what uncomfortably high. Now, what if, instead of getting the SEOS up above the sofa height, I didn't? From the MLP/on axis listening point, you'd still have line of sight to both the left and right SEOS but those sitting off axis on the left couch would have the left SEOS muffled by the sofa some what, with line of sight to the right SEOS and those sitting on the right couch would have the right SEOS muffled by their sofa somewhat, while still having line of sight to the left SEOS.

Does that make sense? Would that help the problem of not toeing in?
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post #9 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 12:02 PM
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If it were me, I'd consider building smaller speakers in lower-profile boxes, recessing them into the wall, and using an AT screen, rather than trying to shoehorn the F15s into that space. Maybe one of the HTM speakers, or a Volt 10, or Concentric 8.
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post #10 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 12:07 PM
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I have done alot of experimenting with toe in on my speakers. my center image and soundstage actually sounds better with less toe in. I think this has to do with the 75in lcd affecting the sound. if you sit 12+feet back, I think you should be ok. my speakers sound way better 1ft + away from back wall. that was the most important aspect for my setup.
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post #11 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
If it were me, I'd consider building smaller speakers in lower-profile boxes, recessing them into the wall, and using an AT screen, rather than trying to shoehorn the F15s into that space. Maybe one of the HTM speakers, or a Volt 10, or Concentric 8.
There's many things I'd definitely do differently but I don't want to spend too much on this house or do too much that would require undoing, plus I already brought the Carl's ALR screen.

In the future I definitely want to do something like you're suggesting! When I get to build a house there will be a lot of fun!
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post #12 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 12:28 PM
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Just put them on a shelf with a couple extra inches of depth so you can angle it. Problem solved
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post #13 of 45 Old 12-23-2016, 05:16 PM
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It all depends on the polar response of the speakers, distance to MLP, etc. It is hard to help with this other than general speaker placement guidelines with being in the room during setup.
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post #14 of 45 Old 12-25-2016, 06:27 PM
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I toe in so that it points at each of my ears. I found this works best.

When I first got my SEOS's I listened to just the tweeter, and experimented with different heights.
I found the best height to be slightly higher than ear level and pointed slightly downward.
This would probably be even more important with multi-row raised seating.

If I were doing a AT screen, I would place the center slightly higher than center and aim it downward. Depending on seating arrangements.
Otherwise, just do the best you can as you wont have your center in front of your screen.

For really narrow or large rooms (like 9k and up) with dedicated center channels, toe-in doesn't matters less and less. (Depending on how picky you are.)
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post #15 of 45 Old 12-25-2016, 06:42 PM
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I stand 1.5-2 feet behind MLP and aim them there. That being said, although improvement or degradation of soundstage is apparent when I play with toe in, I find it rather slow and annoying. I wish i had motorized wheelcarts to put below speakers to toe them in and out via remote while listening...that would make the process 98% faster.

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post #16 of 45 Old 12-25-2016, 08:37 PM
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"If it were me, I'd consider building smaller speakers in lower-profile boxes, recessing them into the wall, and using an AT screen, rather than trying to shoehorn the F15s into that space. Maybe one of the HTM speakers, or a Volt 10, or Concentric 8. "

The 88 Specials were designed shallow with that thought in mind and you still get the 15" SEOS horns too!

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post #17 of 45 Old 12-26-2016, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
That wall is about 13ft across with the U shaped seating area about the same and the distance from the wall to the furthest and centre part of the seating about something like 14ft. Since I want to build it into a entertainment unit across the wall, stylistically and design wise it would be easier to just make everything flat across the front instead of toeing int the two F15's but since you guys are the experts, I thought I'd ask how much of a bad idea that was... Keep in mind that I'd also be listening to music in the kitchen which is open plan off to the right although I don't think that would matter.

This is what I'm aiming to make, since it will match the unit of this we already have. Imagine all three speakers in the same locations as the doors/drawers, but the left and right moved out with shelving between them and the centre. Will a lip like the one you can see cause issues with the SEOS? If the left and right were toed in but the top was kept rectangular, effectively tucking the SEOS further under the top/lip, would that also be a terrible idea?



In short, yes I'm trying to keep them flat but if you lot start pulling the following face and getting the flamethrowers and daggers out, I'll go back to the drawing board and try and work out how to make it 'pretty'.
Hi there. There are several challenges in your proposed plan that are related (even exacerbated) to toeing in your plan. I have a room similar to yours (see link in signature at bottom) in size and installation. I did an 88 Special build about a year ago, and tested it extensively before and after installing into a niche similar to what you plan.

I also have a lot of experience with similar designs using baffle walls/niches. Although toeing in is beneficial for the reasons we all know, baffle walls/niches have the potential to create a much more degrading effect IF not done "properly." What will make a real mess of an excellent speaker is setting the speaker baffle deeper than the surface of the surround wall plane around it. A 2" inset into the niche will be very bad. The necessity to toe-in the L/R mains can exacerbate this greatly because you have to push back the inside edge of the speaker baffle. The resulting refraction issues this causes is rather huge. The degrading effect of refraction creates a far bigger degradation than not toeing in.

How huge? I tested this extensively with the 88 Special and learned a ton that can benefit all who are going down a similar design path. It is basically true for all speakers, but there are characteristics about the DIYSG/SEOS designs that give you some margin to overcome this problem.

You can follow a string of posts on my 88 build thread, but I'll summarize here. There are several things you can do at your stage to help you have an excellent outcome. First, everyone must realize that what the OP is designing is a listening area, not a single seat/MLP room. The first thing I would recommend on such a design is to keep the L/R main subtended angle at the MLP not wider than 45 degrees. 42-ish degrees works nicely...and happens to conform to professional cinema designs.

Next, give your finished speaker an extensive listening test with it out in the room; not in the niche/cubby hole! You must have a relative performance reference for what effect the niche placement is having on the speaker's performance. I initially placed the 88 in the niche just far enough to be able to aim it downward just a bit. This had a very bad effect due to refraction. The final solution was to pull the 88 outward to at least flush with the surrounding wall. I abandoned the tilt to be able to do this. Fortunately, the DIYSG/SEOS designs are quite forgiving in dispersion/coverage. Of course, this somewhat accounts for how sensitive they are to refraction of nearby baffle surface/edges, but it also means that the speakers will require less toe in/aim than you might expect at the throw distance you have to your MLP.

How is it degraded? Setting as little as 2" into the niche/baffle wall "shrinks" the speaker dramatically from its in-room performance. It makes the speaker sound much "smaller" than its performance if placed out in the room. Getting it to flush or out an inch or so takes away the problem (thankfully).

If you have a dedicated theater with a true baffle wall that is concealed behind the screen, obviously acoustically treat the baffle wall, but still bring the speaker baffle out 2" or so, and your speaker will perform far better.

You can read my running commentary on this in my 88 build thread, posts 98, 105, 108 (primary), 112, 123, 129. I think anyone doing a DIY build and planning a niche/baffle wall installation will find it helpful. https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post40821522

I've also considered changing to Fusion 15s for my L/R mains. The inability to toe them has kept me from doing this. The speakers I'm currently using have wider horizontal dispersion than the SEOS designs...so I'm still debating this BUT also now considering the HTM-12. My recommendation to you for your plan is three HTM-12s. I get the vibe that the new CD is slightly better than the 360 in the 88 and F15, but that may be tough to hear. More importantly, you'd have three identical speakers for your LCRs which is always preferable if you can fit them. You won't need to worry about the somewhat lower reach of the F15 since you'll have subs working...and plan on some significant LF generation in your big room. For a room that size and throw (like mine), the DIYSG speakers are an excellent choice due to the sensitivity and directivity.

By the way, niche installations really benefit from good EQ like Audyssey xt32 or Dirac to manage boundary gain.

Finally, I highly recommend the Volt-10LX for surrounds in a big room like yours and mine. I have a build thread on them, too. Also, I highly recommend two surrounds on the side walls is such large rooms. You'll need an additional modest amp for them so that you can control/balance their output, but the benefit they provide to stitch the surround field with the front sound stage in a large room is wonderful! https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...s-cam-man.html

EDIT: Forgive the long post, but I thought of something else for you to consider. I have specifically not endorsed the Volt-10 for LCR service in a large room like ours due to its relatively low directivity index. That property makes it great for surround service, but I worried that its directivity would be too low in a large active room at a significant throw distance like we have. I also worried a little about output capability (can it reach Reference?). I saw a post by someone who built the ported Volt-10 who was very impressed. After living with the Volt-10LXs for a year now, I'm not as confident of my initial opinion on its potential for LCR duty. One night we experienced the dreaded "dts bomb." It was a gunshot level blast that sounded like it was primarily from the surrounds. It was real-weapon-discharge-in-the-room loud; frightening. I feared that one or more of the Volts were toast. Not so. It really makes me wonder that Volt-10s as LCRs in niches might be worth a try. Properly installed in a niche/baffle wall, proper bass management, then well-calibrated, they might actually do well...and would need to be toed-in little if any. I'd certainly try it without toeing. Volts all around the room might be fairly incredible sounding.

Good luck with your design and build. Keep us informed on the progress.
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post #18 of 45 Old 12-26-2016, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Toe-in is critical with a two speaker system, otherwise it's next to impossible to realize imaging that delivers a phantom center effect. If you have a center and the content has center channel information there's less reason to have toe-in, although it won't hurt either.
Does this still hold true if using a processor that takes a 2 channel stereo signal and upmixes to the number of physical speakers in your system (typically 5.1 speakers for the majority of people)? Dolby Pro Logic II is one of many examples of this processing.

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post #19 of 45 Old 12-26-2016, 10:05 AM
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Does this still hold true if using a processor that takes a 2 channel stereo signal and upmixes to the number of physical speakers in your system (typically 5.1 speakers for the majority of people)? Dolby Pro Logic II is one of many examples of this processing.
You bring up a good point, and it brings to mind another regarding the original issue of how important the phantom center is in a multi-channel system. I used to subscribe to the center channel making moot the ability of the L/R mains to create a phantom center. I've learned "better" thanks to a colleague (Anthony Grimani). Or at least I learned why it is still important/beneficial for speakers and groups of speakers to have the ability to render a phantom image between. Although we typically associate this with the L/R mains being aimed properly and with equal output (spl), there are other affecting factors of which I was not aware, that are significant.

For the front stage localizations and pans, and for the surrounds to stitch properly with the front stage to be reproduced faithful to the created movie mix, precise imaging between the LCRs, between the surrounds, between the surround groups, and between the L/R surround "walls" with their corresponding L/R mains is required. This is a final step of system calibration that is rarely addressed or even known about. Special test tone tracks that do each of these is required, and it's a rather busy process, but it renders an icing on the cake that is terrific. The test tone is designed to be a phantom image between L/R mains, L/Center, R/Center, R/L side surrounds, and R surround/L main and vice versa. To my surprise, this is well off even after a rather precise calibration like with MultEQ XT32. How the image is shifted was a surprise to me. It is done with the channel timing...a minor adjustment to one of the channels' distances. It is done between L/R main first. Then it is done between the center and each L/R main, but only changing the distance of the center so as to not affect the L/R main imaging. It progresses through the surrounds.

Yes, it's really tweaking/refining...and an otherwise good system will still be very satisfying, but...food for thought. The only place I know you can get these tones is on the PMI (Tony Grimani's company) 5.1 Tool Kit DVD. I've been using mine since 2002.

I would think that this would still be beneficial for the 5.1 to 7.1 horizontal plane of speakers in an ATMOS system. Frankly, I'd expect it to enable it to place objects even more precisely.

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post #20 of 45 Old 12-26-2016, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
In short, yes I'm trying to keep them flat but if you lot start pulling the following face and getting the flamethrowers and daggers out, I'll go back to the drawing board and try and work out how to make it 'pretty'.
Frankly, I do not foresee success despite your efforts. There are too many constraints on speaker size, speaker location and speaker orientation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
If it were me, I'd consider building smaller speakers in lower-profile boxes, recessing them into the wall, and using an AT screen, rather than trying to shoehorn the F15s into that space. Maybe one of the HTM speakers, or a Volt 10, or Concentric 8.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
Just put them on a shelf with a couple extra inches of depth so you can angle it. Problem solved
+2

And/or get a smaller screen.

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post #21 of 45 Old 12-28-2016, 02:24 PM - Thread Starter
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@Cam Man to be clear, the speakers in the in the cabinet would not be recessed at all, they'd literally be the ends and centre of it, so it's mostly as if it's just the same three speakers, just with some shelving in between which would be shallower than the depth of the speakers anyway so as to not be flush with the front of the speakers.

The only potential interfering thing I was going to do was put a similar lip around the top to match the existing furniture I have but the lip itself is very small and would be angled away from the SEOS as well, hopefully not causing any interference at all:



@OJ Bartley I may still just go with three F15's, may main reasoning for using the HTM12 as the centre was that it would give me plenty of space behind it for cabling/plugs/outlets etc but the more I think about it, the I may just do three F15's and work out how to recess the plugs in the wall. If anything the cabinet design and overall look would be much nicer when all three are the same....

@ja00 originally I was planning on putting the CD's at ear height which would be just above the line of the sofas but I've decided to do it about in line with the top of the sofas, the reasoning being, is that if I did want to sit at the MLP, the left and right should still be clearly visible from that position but, when sitting on the left, the left would be obscured/attenuated by the left sofa but the right would be visible and vice versa, hopefully preventing the some of the issues with NOT toeing in the left and right when sitting off centre.
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post #22 of 45 Old 12-28-2016, 02:36 PM
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Ahhh...so the speakers ARE the furniture structure (with some crown molding to trim)? It's actually a cool idea.

What will be the angle between the L/R mains at your MLP (I'm a math idiot, but in trig it's "subtended angle")?
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post #23 of 45 Old 12-29-2016, 08:07 AM
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@ja00 originally I was planning on putting the CD's at ear height which would be just above the line of the sofas but I've decided to do it about in line with the top of the sofas, the reasoning being, is that if I did want to sit at the MLP, the left and right should still be clearly visible from that position but, when sitting on the left, the left would be obscured/attenuated by the left sofa but the right would be visible and vice versa, hopefully preventing the some of the issues with NOT toeing in the left and right when sitting off centre.
I see. So you are basically using the sofa to attenuate the speaker closest to that seating position. May or may not work. I have not tried it personally but I would think the attenuation/diffraction/reflection vs frequency would not be linear so you may not get the result you want. It would probably be better to look at the horizontal polar response, determine your seating position angles and see how it works out and decide to toe in if necessary.
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post #24 of 45 Old 12-29-2016, 09:48 AM
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If you are going to make the speakers part of the furniture, or in niche or baffle wall, do the speakers need to be put much closer together to decrease the angle to the MLP? I think this is what Cam was eluding to when he asked what the angle would be. I'm in the same boat where I'm about to do another DIYSG build but in niches and want to make sure the baffles are at least flush with my openings but I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how I'm NOT going to be able to toe them in. Old habits.
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post #25 of 45 Old 12-29-2016, 10:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Ahhh...so the speakers ARE the furniture structure (with some crown molding to trim)? It's actually a cool idea.

What will be the angle between the L/R mains at your MLP (I'm a math idiot, but in trig it's "subtended angle")?
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Originally Posted by ja00 View Post
I see. So you are basically using the sofa to attenuate the speaker closest to that seating position. May or may not work. I have not tried it personally but I would think the attenuation/diffraction/reflection vs frequency would not be linear so you may not get the result you want. It would probably be better to look at the horizontal polar response, determine your seating position angles and see how it works out and decide to toe in if necessary.
Bingo! Glad I'm making some sense! And yes, that's exactly what I'm hoping for and as mentioned by @Cam Man , it's more of a "listening area" for music since I don't often sit down and dedicate myself to listening to music, it's usually while I'm doing something else, so in the open plan kitchen to the right or something, otherwise it's mainly going to be for watching TV/movies.

To answer your question Cam, the angle should be roughly 67 degrees. L/R is roughly 110" centre to centre and about 130" away from the MLP.
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post #26 of 45 Old 12-29-2016, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
Bingo! Glad I'm making some sense! And yes, that's exactly what I'm hoping for and as mentioned by @Cam Man , it's more of a "listening area" for music since I don't often sit down and dedicate myself to listening to music, it's usually while I'm doing something else, so in the open plan kitchen to the right or something, otherwise it's mainly going to be for watching TV/movies.

To answer your question Cam, the angle should be roughly 67 degrees. L/R is roughly 110" centre to centre and about 130" away from the MLP.
That's really wide! You will absolutely need to toe-in all the SEOS designs, especially ones with the larger woofers...not just to have good phantom imaging, but to cover your listening area. If you can figure out how to get that down to <45 degrees, the outcome will be a lot easier to manage. Yes, constant directivity speakers have the benefit of maintaining the FR characteristics off-axis (notice curves are roughly parallel), but without coverage, the opposite side of the listening area from each L/R main speaker could really be low on spl, FR will be somewhat smooth, but amplitude won't be. That will also play hell with calibration whether Audyssey or Dirac. See what I mean? Just throwing out food for thought for your design.
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post #27 of 45 Old 12-29-2016, 11:26 PM
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That's really wide! You will absolutely need to toe-in all the SEOS designs, especially ones with the larger woofers...not just to have good phantom imaging, but to cover your listening area. If you can figure out how to get that down to <45 degrees, the outcome will be a lot easier to manage. Yes, constant directivity speakers have the benefit of maintaining the FR characteristics off-axis (notice curves are roughly parallel), but without coverage, the opposite side of the listening area from each L/R main speaker could really be low on spl, FR will be somewhat smooth, but amplitude won't be. That will also play hell with calibration whether Audyssey or Dirac. See what I mean? Just throwing out food for thought for your design.
Would it be fair to say the closer that can be to <45 degrees then no/less toe in is needed?
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post #28 of 45 Old 12-30-2016, 09:32 AM
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Would it be fair to say the closer that can be to <45 degrees then no/less toe in is needed?
Fair? Let's define what the task is. We want to "design" speaker placement so that we provide a nominal experience for a listening area. To do this we must place the speakers such that the listening area falls within the listening window of the speaker(s). If a listening position is outside the defined listening window, the listening experience will not be nominal, and if the position is used for a mic position in the calibration process (Audyssey or Dirac), the calibration will be flawed and affect the performance within the listening window. All bad.

How do we know what the "listening window" is for a speaker? Rarely, a manufacturer will publish pro-level data which makes this fairly easy. For most residential speakers, this level of data is not published, so we have to dig for the info, sometimes interpolating from what is known about a similar design, or measure the speaker ourselves.

In the JBL FR graph below you can see this brand and model defines the listening window as +/-30 degrees horizontal and +/- 10 degrees vertical. That is what they design their higher performance speakers to have as a listening window.

The black line is on-axis FR, and the green line is off-axis to the extremes of the listening window. Notice how very close the lines are; within a dB throughout most of the spectrum. This data tells us two things we want to know. It defines our listening area and it shows us that the performance is very smooth/consistent across the listening area. You can still screw up the performance with a bad installation such as placing it too deep into a niche or compartment, but we know better and won't do that.

The other FR off-axis graph is what Matt provides for the Fusion-15. The black line is on-axis. Each increment is 10 degrees. The red line is 30 degrees off-axis. Although not as smooth as the JBL, it does not stray more than about 3 or 4 degrees. It is worth noting that the further off-axis you go, the worse performance gets. Keep the widest positions of your listening area within 30 degrees of zero aim with either seat placement, speaker toeing, or a combination of the two, and you will have nominal/smooth coverage of the listening area. It's that easy. What makes it tougher sometimes are architectural and/or WAF limitations. We just have to work those out.
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Toe in affects high frequency dispersion as high frequency is more directional.
It also depends on the speakers. Some have very wide dispersion or off axis response but don't like for example a loaded horn would have much narrower dispersion than a regular tweeter.
Personally I like toed in for best imaging.
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post #30 of 45 Old 12-30-2016, 11:31 AM
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Toe in affects high frequency dispersion as high frequency is more directional.
It also depends on the speakers. Some have very wide dispersion or off axis response but don't like for example a loaded horn would have much narrower dispersion than a regular tweeter.
Personally I like toed in for best imaging.
And not all "horn-loaded" designs are the same. DIYSG SEOS are constant directivity designs...which render a certain manner of roll-off of high frequencies...which is very different from other types. Below is a short and good read on the subject.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/201...vity-speakers/
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