128-130+db MBM options? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Just to make this thread clear here is the link to both my LCRs and amps for them kinda lol.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...chmentid=71504

My LT20s are custom 3 way triple active so not the exact same as linked.

I am using the AP2800-4 (1400 watts per 10") for the 10"s of each cabinet and two AP950-2s (950 watts per 6.5") for the 6.5s and still deciding on an amp for the ribbons but something around 500-750 watts per ribbon.

Then I want a MBM (which can be 1 driver or 4 drivers as long as they fit in the space of 26"x26" front baffle by however deep but not over 4') to go under each LT20 which will be on top of a FTW 21 sub. There are also other subs in the baffle wall.
Seems like the 21" woofers are keeping you from looking at the easy option of a pro 21" in a vented box. You can easily get this output from a B&C SW115 in a box ~200L tuned to ~38Hz. An important not for amplification: B&C USA stocks the 8 Ohm version, and PE & B&C's website incorrectly lists the 4 Ohm version as available - @bennettprescott . Bridge an amp to them with ~2kW and you should be set to go. With a big impedance peak between 45-85Hz and a 4.5" VC, you won't have any worry for midbass dynamics. Just be sure to make the ports big enough.

Alternately if you wanted to give Walter more flexibility with phase and response shape, you could do 2 15" or 2 18" sealed drivers in a wedge/manifold on the face. Enough power to displace +/-15mm on a pair of 18s gets you pretty close. Some TD18H+ drivers, or even PE reference series might get there, or a good bit of EQ on some of the BC drivers. You would want the box small enough to push the impedance peak up into the intended passband (lower distortion and compression).
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post #32 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 01:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Seems like the 21" woofers are keeping you from looking at the easy option of a pro 21" in a vented box. You can easily get this output from a B&C SW115 in a box ~200L tuned to ~38Hz. An important not for amplification: B&C USA stocks the 8 Ohm version, and PE & B&C's website incorrectly lists the 4 Ohm version as available - @bennettprescott . Bridge an amp to them with ~2kW and you should be set to go. With a big impedance peak between 45-85Hz and a 4.5" VC, you won't have any worry for midbass dynamics. Just be sure to make the ports big enough.

Alternately if you wanted to give Walter more flexibility with phase and response shape, you could do 2 15" or 2 18" sealed drivers in a wedge/manifold on the face. Enough power to displace +/-15mm on a pair of 18s gets you pretty close. Some TD18H+ drivers, or even PE reference series might get there, or a good bit of EQ on some of the BC drivers. You would want the box small enough to push the impedance peak up into the intended passband (lower distortion and compression).
Thanks Mark! Yea the wedge was my first thought as well. I just couldn't get the FR that I was looking for with a handful of different drivers. Maybe I should go back and revisit that option.

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post #33 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 01:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Three TH118 can be made for about the price of a singe used one. How much room do you have for your MBM?


You could always build a simple dual 15" straight horn if you have the room. I have seen many dual 12 straight horns that do very well for mid bass. 60hz and up. Same with a pair of 15's. These are not small horns though.
I don't know if I were to turn it on its side but quite a bit. Maybe 4.5'-5' tall if were based on same shape.

If I just went straight back I have about 4' in that direction too.
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post #34 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Thanks Mark! Yea the wedge was my first thought as well. I just couldn't get the FR that I was looking for with a handful of different drivers. Maybe I should go back and revisit that option.
Since your subs are sealed and you will have Walter there to dial in the Trinnov, I'd consider the ease of blending multiple sealed subs something worth looking into rather than the phase and dynamic changes of a ported system. One budget sealed option would be putting a bunch of power into a pair of face to face Dayton RSS460HO drivers in a small space of about 100L. Above 65Hz the big power peaks might stall out some from your goals.

A pair of AE TD18H+ drivers wedged in the face with about 150L sealed behind the pair would make for a very impressive solution IMO. The high motor strength an suspension combine in this box size making for a large impedance peak which at least doubles the thermal capacity between 45-95Hz (more than double Re). The 14mm rating with plenty of suspension travel easily nets about 128dB @ 50Hz, where 1500W each could yield peaks of 130dB above 60Hz and 135dB at 100Hz. You will want 4-8dB of EQ through the range, but this is easily done in the Trinnov before correction, or just let correction handle it. With capability of close to 120dB even down at 30Hz, where ceiling height and side walls will be providing added gain, that leaves plenty of room to do any bit of blending or bass routing Walter might want. Sticking to sealed also makes the build very straight forward beyond the construction of the V or U shaped manifold.

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post #35 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I don't know if I were to turn it on its side but quite a bit. Maybe 4.5'-5' tall if were based on same shape.

If I just went straight back I have about 4' in that direction too.
That is a massive amount of room. Straight horns would fit but I would listen to Mark's comments. That setup he mentioned would be killer. If you need more just double what he said. It also takes up the least room with some of the best drivers made. That sounds like a great plan to me.
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post #36 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Since your subs are sealed and you will have Walter there to dial in the Trinnov, I'd consider the ease of blending multiple sealed subs something worth looking into rather than the phase and dynamic changes of a ported system. One budget sealed option would be putting a bunch of power into a pair of face to face Dayton RSS460HO drivers in a small space of about 100L. Above 65Hz the big power peaks might stall out some from your goals.

A pair of AE TD18H+ drivers wedged in the face with about 150L sealed behind the pair would make for a very impressive solution IMO. The high motor strength an suspension combine in this box size making for a large impedance peak which at least doubles the thermal capacity between 45-95Hz (more than double Re). The 14mm rating with plenty of suspension travel easily nets about 128dB @ 50Hz, where 1500W each could yield peaks of 130dB above 60Hz and 135dB at 100Hz. You will want 4-8dB of EQ through the range, but this is easily done in the Trinnov before correction, or just let correction handle it. With capability of close to 120dB even down at 30Hz, where ceiling height and side walls will be providing added gain, that leaves plenty of room to do any bit of blending or bass routing Walter might want. Sticking to sealed also makes the build very straight forward beyond the construction of the V or U shaped manifold.
So blending the subs and MBMs of the same cabinet design would be favorable to blending the LT20s(ported) with the MBMs?

What should I be looking for in my models? I assume the face to face with the plenum type of reaction can't be modeled in winisd and need to continue using hornesp? Every response just looked really crappy but I wasn't using any of the mentioned drivers either.
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post #37 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 05:58 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
So blending the subs and MBMs of the same cabinet design would be favorable to blending the LT20s(ported) with the MBMs?

What should I be looking for in my models? I assume the face to face with the plenum type of reaction can't be modeled in winisd and need to continue using hornesp? Every response just looked really crappy but I wasn't using any of the mentioned drivers either.
You will end up rolling off the LT20s well above the tuning frequency in the 40s, so the interaction there should be minimal. The sealed option also has no set frequency limits, just a matter of how loud vs frequency and where you divert the lowest frequencies to the subs. I suspect @TheLion (Walter) would like the flexibility of being able to either use the midbass subs as extensions of the main speaker or as another subwoofer group. All of these being sealed gives him more options for exact frequency ranges, slopes and overlap depending on how they interact with the room.

The 26" width is a little tight for the pair of 18s like these, but it looks like you could do a face to face manifold with 5-6" between the driver faces. I'd mount them similar to how many IB's are done and similar to what Keith Yates did with the 24" drivers in Rob Hahn's theater. Even at 20" deep a 1/4 wavelength is ~170Hz. If the manifold is parallel I would make the opening a taller than the woofers to maximize the opening area. It also looks like a 10 deg baffle angle (20 deg between the 2) would also fit and further reduce the loading of the manifold and result in about an 8" wide opening. In general for this alignment any acoustic loading will just help to flatten the response which has a tilt through the range due to the high motor force of the woofers. Of course if you can increase the width any that makes the construction and even easier.

I also recall John Janowitz of AE posting that he had TD18s built and ready. Might be worth e-mailing to check if the impedance works for you.

You can approximately model this with Horn Response where the driver location along the manifold is the center of the woofer. Know that due to the width of the cone, peaks or notches at high frequencies due to driver location will be spread and smoothed vs the model.

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post #38 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 08:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
You will end up rolling off the LT20s well above the tuning frequency in the 40s, so the interaction there should be minimal. The sealed option also has no set frequency limits, just a matter of how loud vs frequency and where you divert the lowest frequencies to the subs. I suspect @TheLion (Walter) would like the flexibility of being able to either use the midbass subs as extensions of the main speaker or as another subwoofer group. All of these being sealed gives him more options for exact frequency ranges, slopes and overlap depending on how they interact with the room.

The 26" width is a little tight for the pair of 18s like these, but it looks like you could do a face to face manifold with 5-6" between the driver faces. I'd mount them similar to how many IB's are done and similar to what Keith Yates did with the 24" drivers in Rob Hahn's theater. Even at 20" deep a 1/4 wavelength is ~170Hz. If the manifold is parallel I would make the opening a taller than the woofers to maximize the opening area. It also looks like a 10 deg baffle angle (20 deg between the 2) would also fit and further reduce the loading of the manifold and result in about an 8" wide opening. In general for this alignment any acoustic loading will just help to flatten the response which has a tilt through the range due to the high motor force of the woofers. Of course if you can increase the width any that makes the construction and even easier.

I also recall John Janowitz of AE posting that he had TD18s built and ready. Might be worth e-mailing to check if the impedance works for you.

You can approximately model this with Horn Response where the driver location along the manifold is the center of the woofer. Know that due to the width of the cone, peaks or notches at high frequencies due to driver location will be spread and smoothed vs the model.
Thanks again! I can use more width easily as long as the opening isn't greater than the aprox 26" so that isn't a big deal at all. I can cover the rest of the cabinet on either side with the linacoustic material that will be on the baffle wall, correct? That won't mess with anything in this frequency range as far as the actual baffle of the cabinet correct? Sorry if this is a dumb question to be asking just want to make sure. The Procella V18 is basically this exact same thing and I just happened to stumble across it today.

Off topic but while you are here, I spoke with you a few months ago about a project and am curious if you use any 18 sub drivers that can be housed in a 12-13" deep cabinet? My plan for the perimeter of the room is to have subs running along the entire room where possible. The rear will be housing deeper cabinets but both side walls have 12-13" of space.
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post #39 of 53 Old 02-01-2017, 08:45 PM - Thread Starter
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@diy speaker guy could you be kind enough to model up some of the suggested drivers in this configuration Mark has suggested. You helped me a while ago try to do this when I was trying to use 12s like the Procella V6 with half of them being in push pull configuration but hoping this will model easier. My goal is a MBM with FR aprox 50hz-140hz. Mark suggested drivers in his first post on the previous page. Hope you can help and would be much appreciated!
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post #40 of 53 Old 02-02-2017, 11:45 AM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Thanks again! I can use more width easily as long as the opening isn't greater than the aprox 26" so that isn't a big deal at all. I can cover the rest of the cabinet on either side with the linacoustic material that will be on the baffle wall, correct? That won't mess with anything in this frequency range as far as the actual baffle of the cabinet correct? Sorry if this is a dumb question to be asking just want to make sure. The Procella V18 is basically this exact same thing and I just happened to stumble across it today.

Off topic but while you are here, I spoke with you a few months ago about a project and am curious if you use any 18 sub drivers that can be housed in a 12-13" deep cabinet? My plan for the perimeter of the room is to have subs running along the entire room where possible. The rear will be housing deeper cabinets but both side walls have 12-13" of space.
A 26" wide opening is much easier than a 26" wide box. You can either just build them on a flat face with the drivers set back slightly with only 4" of the edge of the woofer concealed, or you can angle the drivers at 30 degree on the manifold with a ~22" wide opening, 36" wide box, 18" deep, 26" tall and you will have the right volume (figuring ~0.75" material).

With the 30 deg/22" wide manifold or flat mounting with 26" square window over the drivers there's not really anything to worry about in the loading.

So far as the shallow 18s, I have the sample of our upcoming production cabinet here that is 12" deep, 26" x 30". E-mail me if you need further info.
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post #41 of 53 Old 02-02-2017, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
Since your subs are sealed and you will have Walter there to dial in the Trinnov, I'd consider the ease of blending multiple sealed subs something worth looking into rather than the phase and dynamic changes of a ported system. One budget sealed option would be putting a bunch of power into a pair of face to face Dayton RSS460HO drivers in a small space of about 100L. Above 65Hz the big power peaks might stall out some from your goals.

A pair of AE TD18H+ drivers wedged in the face with about 150L sealed behind the pair would make for a very impressive solution IMO. The high motor strength an suspension combine in this box size making for a large impedance peak which at least doubles the thermal capacity between 45-95Hz (more than double Re). The 14mm rating with plenty of suspension travel easily nets about 128dB @ 50Hz, where 1500W each could yield peaks of 130dB above 60Hz and 135dB at 100Hz. You will want 4-8dB of EQ through the range, but this is easily done in the Trinnov before correction, or just let correction handle it. With capability of close to 120dB even down at 30Hz, where ceiling height and side walls will be providing added gain, that leaves plenty of room to do any bit of blending or bass routing Walter might want. Sticking to sealed also makes the build very straight forward beyond the construction of the V or U shaped manifold.
@audiovideoholic - I know you have seen The Savoy thread because you posted in it. I designed and help dlbeck build 4 MBM's with AE PB18H+ (basically same as TD18H+ but without the phase plug). His speakers and subs are sealed which helped make integration easier and more accurate. The MBM's are sealed with a little larger cabinet space (100L/driver) for a lower impedance peak. Anyway, I highly recommend Mark's suggestion and love the AE drivers.


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post #42 of 53 Old 02-10-2017, 09:37 AM
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I don't know if @K9woofer has measured it or he can hear it. He said in the post I linked to he has one. "I have a vbss on a nu1000" I took it that he can hear it or measured it. Maybe he will come to this thread and clarify.

Not that the 460 is a bad woofer, it is very impressive for the $$ for sure. I just think there are better options if money isn't the issue so he isn't running them at the edge of what they can do to accomplish his goal.

I do agree with you about how often will he be running them that high.

How many 21's are you running @audiovideoholic I take it a few to hit that same goal of 130+ for below 50hz?

Another nice sub that would fit the 50hz up range he is looking for and (gives him 4-6db over the 460) is the B&C 18TBW100($345), it would give him a couple more db of leeway over even the B&C 18rbx100 which is $265. The nice thing is the B&C take as much as half the size box of the PA460, draw back is they need more power.

The WINISD graph I attached is max SPL so it shows the 460 where it will be hitting Xmax.

Any chance you have the .wdr files for these drivers? I tried to datafill using the specs online and keep getting data integrity errors.I would really appreciate it!
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post #43 of 53 Old 02-10-2017, 09:50 AM
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Any chance you have the .wdr files for these drivers? I tried to datafill using the specs online and keep getting data integrity errors.I would really appreciate it!
You have to enter them in a specific order. From the WINISD help file.

The suggested procedure for entering driver parameters is following (check first that "Auto calculate unknowns" option is checked):

1. Enter Mms and Cms

This gives fs. If either is not available, then enter fs and other parameter.

2. Enter Sd, Bl and Re

Now, you should get all but Qms (and Qts), Vas. Please note that Vas may not match exactly what is specified by manufacturer, because exact value of Vas depends on environmental parameters. See FAQ.

3. Enter Rms or Qms.

Either one will do, although I tend to prefer Qms over Rms, because it can usually be measured in driver measurement procedures.

4. Enter Hc, Hg and Pe.

If Hc or Hg or either is available, then enter Xmax and optionally either Hc or Hg if available.


This procedure is most accurate. Also note that it also calculates true SPL (1W/1m) value. So it might not match the marketing SPL value, which is generally somewhat vague. Not in all cases, though.

Or is that how you did it?
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post #44 of 53 Old 02-10-2017, 09:53 AM
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Any chance you have the .wdr files for these drivers? I tried to datafill using the specs online and keep getting data integrity errors.I would really appreciate it!
Here is a zip, but the above method is how I enter them.
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post #45 of 53 Old 02-12-2017, 08:41 AM
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Thank you! I wasn't aware there was a particular method, I was inputting all the fields with the autofill checked, and that's probrably what caused the issue.
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post #46 of 53 Old 02-12-2017, 12:30 PM
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I have yet to find an 18" that models better for MBM duty than a BEYMA 18P80ND:
http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%2018P80nd-1.htm

Having uber-high sensitivity, power handling, and a fair amount of cone area is the key to loud mid-bass.
Also, having the impedance peak within the passband helps keep the coils cooler and amplifier less strained.
(xmax/xmech and horned box would help too, of course.)

That said, it is 5x more expensive than a 460. But yet only about 2-4db louder...

I'm building this:

16 Dual-Opposed 460's sealed

Which gives me this with 8kW:

(Note: I don't have space for ported, and I don't have space for 21's.)
With 16 coils it will basically never heat up, and it only costs me $1600 in drivers.

16 Beyma's are 2-4db louder in this config, but it would cost as much as a new Tesla M3.

Porting the 16 460's gives you this:

Which isn't much of an improvement considering these boxes are the size of bathroom's...
It does however require only 3kW at this point, but also HPF's too, of course...

122db @ 20hz is not insignificant.

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post #47 of 53 Old 02-12-2017, 12:55 PM - Thread Starter
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@BassThatHz yea that's quite a bit more space than 26"x26" manifold opening for one/LCR.
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post #48 of 53 Old 02-12-2017, 01:28 PM
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The OP has 143db worth already, and is saying "it ain't enough."



With 20 21's and 24kW you'd be at 149db... Just Sayin'


20 15hz ported 21's with 48kW: BOOM! Now we're talkin'


and lastly 24 24's with 100kW:

The universe itself is fighting against us at this point... (Time for a nuclear power plant in the backyard!)
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post #49 of 53 Old 02-12-2017, 02:28 PM
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Here is $10,000 worth of 460's. Yellow is IB with 2kW, and Cyan is sealed with 50kW, vs 10 sealed 21's @ 12kW:
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post #50 of 53 Old 02-12-2017, 02:39 PM - Thread Starter
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@BassThatHz lol yea but squeezing three cabs for mid bass only between the bass cabs and the LCRs that will be down by more than 10db compared to the sub bass range is actually lacking for us crazies in all honesty. The FR curve will sound and look much better this way tho instead of having a California cliff at 150hz-170hz I can have it gradually tapper down from 125hz or so. Now if my beyma ribbons and 6.5s would play about 5-10dbs louder then I'd be asking for mid bass in the 138-141db range but since I can't afford the ProRibbon Alcons that ain't happenin' lol. I don't want the room to sound like those pimp mobiles with factory decks/mids/highs and trunk full of amps and subs. I put about $15000 in my SPL/SQ vehicle just on mids and highs up front and it kills me at times in HT because of how many compromises need to be made for similar results.

I almost went with DSL just for the output but after hearing the Alcons my persuit of filling a huge room 3hz-18khz with 140-150dbs kinda lost interest in a way. The sound is just so different than compression or horn drivers and I basically fell in love with the dynamics of clean sound. But I have plans for a small dedicated one man HT/gaming room that will be over the top crazy. It will be my 5th HT/gaming/media room so will be going into the project with so much more of a better understanding of home/pro audio gear than ever before so even the construction and shape of the room will be quite different than standard rooms. I will produce the 140-150db full range home audio room lol.
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post #51 of 53 Old 06-11-2017, 09:00 AM
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This thread has been a great read! I want more!

I'm trying to figure out a midbass solution for a small footprint. I'm about to add two 24" sealed subs but my room is horrible for midbass - open concept with 12ft ceilings. I wish I could fit 21" mbm's!

I plan on going all sealed but my 1099's are ported... will that create tuning woes?
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post #52 of 53 Old 06-11-2017, 10:26 AM
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I've been told that ears can't hear phase. But we can hear dips in the SPL caused by phase cancellation.
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post #53 of 53 Old 06-11-2017, 10:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I've been told that ears can't hear phase. But we can hear dips in the SPL caused by phase cancellation.
I kinda wish I made the 1099's sealed.

The more I think about adding mbm's, etc the more the thought creeps up of "just build floor standing full range like the 1899's" ... or "just buy jtr's big full range" etc.... I would just get 4277n's but they are too wide for my current space.
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