Class D sub amps with digital inputs - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 04:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Class D sub amps with digital inputs

I am looking for a sub amp to drive 2 15" ultimax woofers. I want built in DSP. Most DSP capable amps are class D amps which are digital amplifiers. The sub signal comes out of the computer, also digital. I think it would be optimal if I could keep the sub signal in the digital domain all the way.

I have been hunting for amps that can do this. So far I have found only the LAB.Gruppen IPD 2400:
http://labgruppen.com/view-model/ipd...?page=overview

This one seems like a very high-end professional thing to me. It's also a 1U housing, so it probably has 40mm screamer fans in it. (Could be blower style, not specified).

Does anyone know of another Class D amp with DSP and SPDIF or AES/EBU input?

Thanks, Erik
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post #2 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 09:04 AM
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I know NAD sells some, but not for the power you want, and for a lot of $$$. Most of the budget live sound class D amps folks use around here have internal A/D to D/As. Maybe look at a MiniDSP with digital inputs. To use along with a standard pro amp.
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post #3 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 09:45 AM
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The MiniDSP 2x4 HD has a toslink input. You could use that and feed any amp you want.
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post #4 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik.vanhamme View Post
I am looking for a sub amp to drive 2 15" ultimax woofers. I want built in DSP. Most DSP capable amps are class D amps which are digital amplifiers. The sub signal comes out of the computer, also digital. I think it would be optimal if I could keep the sub signal in the digital domain all the way.

I have been hunting for amps that can do this. So far I have found only the LAB.Gruppen IPD 2400:
http://labgruppen.com/view-model/ipd...?page=overview

This one seems like a very high-end professional thing to me. It's also a 1U housing, so it probably has 40mm screamer fans in it. (Could be blower style, not specified).

Does anyone know of another Class D amp with DSP and SPDIF or AES/EBU input?

Thanks, Erik


A class D amplifier is a switching amplifier, not digital. It requires an analog input in order to produce the Pulse Width Modulated switching. A class D amplifier with a S/PDIF input will simply convert the digital stream to analog then feed that to the switching amplifier's input.
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post #5 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeng View Post
A class D amplifier is a switching amplifier, not digital. It requires an analog input in order to produce the Pulse Width Modulated switching. A class D amplifier with a S/PDIF input will simply convert the digital stream to analog then feed that to the switching amplifier's input.
^^^ This.
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post #6 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 10:52 AM
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post #7 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 11:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeng View Post
A class D amplifier is a switching amplifier, not digital. It requires an analog input in order to produce the Pulse Width Modulated switching. A class D amplifier with a S/PDIF input will simply convert the digital stream to analog then feed that to the switching amplifier's input.
This is wrong. A class D amp uses a digital control signal for the MOSFET gates, the MOSFET is either conducting or it is not, no inbetween. It is perfectly possible to recalculate a PCM (Pulse Code Modulation) signal directly to the PWM signal needed for the MOSFET switching stage of the amplifier. In fact it is technically better to do it this way. The reason why it is done a lot in the analog domain is because of the speed required. You would need a fast processor to do this, that is probably why I could only find the very expensive amp that does this. Running it in analog is cheaper component wise.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-D_amplifier Top right image. The comparison stage with the triangle wave can be run completely in software. If an amp has a powerful processor (chances are it has, if it has good DSP), it should be easy to add a digital input.

Take a look at this amp:
https://www.qsc.com/cinema/products/...series/dpa42q/

It can take digital signals over its ethernet connections. Do not tell me there is a 4 channel DAC in there to go to analog, to go back to a digital PWM signal. This would add unneeded cost because all of it can be done with maths in software.

Crown has some similar digital bus going to their really high end amps. I am looking for SPDIF or AES/EBU on amps that normal mortals can afford.
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post #8 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 11:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hardeng View Post
A class D amplifier is a switching amplifier, not digital. It requires an analog input in order to produce the Pulse Width Modulated switching. A class D amplifier with a S/PDIF input will simply convert the digital stream to analog then feed that to the switching amplifier's input.
But it would save an additional round of A/D/A conversions in the signal chain would it not?

I don't know what's coming out of his computer's digital sub output, but the general problem I have is most prepros and AVRs don't include bass management in their digital outputs, or even master volume control for that matter.
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post #9 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
I'd go with a minidsp with a digital input and a non-dsp amp
Can you tell me why please?

From where I sit, it add a 12v wall wart, one box, one cable and $205 to the system. The analog connection between the amp and minidsp is not even balanced.

Even if the amp is 205$ more because it includes DSP, it would still be the simpler and more elegant setup IMO.

Or is there an advantage to minidsp I am not seeing?
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post #10 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 12:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by darrellh44 View Post
But it would save an additional round of A/D/A conversions in the signal chain would it not?

I don't know what's coming out of his computer's digital sub output, but the general problem I have is most prepros and AVRs don't include bass management in their digital outputs, or even master volume control for that matter.
The sub channel now comes out of my focusrite interface as a balanced analog output. Bass management has been done before that. With 2 clicks in the focusrite control interface I can send that signal out of a digital port instead of the analog one. I have advanced routing capabilities in that thing, I love my focusrite. Go take a look if you are interested: https://us.focusrite.com/usb-audio-i...scarlett-18i20
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post #11 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik.vanhamme View Post
Can you tell me why please?

From where I sit, it add a 12v wall wart, one box, one cable and $205 to the system. The analog connection between the amp and minidsp is not even balanced.

Even if the amp is 205$ more because it includes DSP, it would still be the simpler and more elegant setup IMO.

Or is there an advantage to minidsp I am not seeing?
Well you're looking for a digital output into an amp. And the only option you have is a very expensive amp. With the minidsp you can pick any amp so you would save a lot of money.

You're right it adds more components to the system.
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post #12 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by erik.vanhamme View Post
This is wrong. A class D amp uses a digital control signal for the MOSFET gates, the MOSFET is either conducting or it is not, no inbetween.
@hardeng is correct. Doesn't mean that if a signal is full ON full OFF that it is digital, think square wave or a very heavily clipped sine wave. A class D amp is analog in nature because the PWM has infinite resolution (the width part, not the amplitude) if it is generated through analog means. Yes, you can generate a PWM through digital with discrete steps but doesn't mean all class D amps are digital. You wouldn't classify a switching power supply a digital power supply just because it is driven by PWM, would you?

On your original question, can't you use one of the analog outs of your Focusrite instead of using digital out + DSP?
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post #13 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 06:02 PM
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You specifically said "sub amp" in the thread title, for which I find no reason why someone should spend lots of money on a digital end-to-end solution. It's not like you are gonna hear a vast difference. Tweeters and mids maybe... but not subwoofers.

You'd be better off buying big/better sub drivers or more of them then "worrying" about some microscopic amount of DAC improvement in the <200hz range that could be obtained by using zillion-dollar amps.

Unless we are talking flat to DC as a goal, then keeping it digital to the end MIGHT help, however... just about ALL amps apply some sort of 1-20hz HPF to protect themselves, so that's bound to be: all for nothing.

The only other case this might be handy, is if you are transmitting the bass a half-mile down a fiber cable to the sub-amp, or you are trying to increase the density on your rack by transmitting 32 subs through a single USB cable or Cat-5 into a boat-load of 1RU PowerSoft's. Crestron typically uses DB-25 ports for this sort of stuff in their "whole house" system solutions, 16 digital channels on a single compact-ish cable.

You won't hear the difference between 0.00001% and 0.01% @ <200hz. It just ain't gonna happen.

Save your money and brain-power by not thinking about this topic any further...
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post #14 of 27 Old 02-21-2017, 06:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik.vanhamme View Post
The sub signal comes out of the computer, also digital. I think it would be optimal if I could keep the sub signal in the digital domain all the way.
It will give no benefit that you will ever notice, especially under 80Hz or so.
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post #15 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 12:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Okay guys, I have done quite some reading on the subject now and it appears that the vast majority of class D amps seem to be of the analog variety, but both do exist.

The reason analog is favored seems to be the feedback loop used for error correction. This is much harder to realize in software/DSP then in the analog world. This is true to such an extent that many class D amps with DPS in them will convert the analog input to digital, run the DSP on it, and then convert the digital back to analog to send into the comparator stage.

Doing the error correction in the digital world involves analog to digital conversion of the output signal (high voltage) and lots of maths on the processor. This creates delay in the error correction signal. That's the killer.

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Save your money and brain-power by not thinking about this topic any further...
I'll save the money alright. I will never save brainpower! This whole excercise left me knowing more then before I started, and that's what it's all about. Big thanks for educating me to all who contributed to this thread!

That leaves me with the question of which amplifier to get. I have been looking at Behringer, Crown and QSC. None of them seem to spec frequency response below 20Hz. I would like 2x 800W+ RMS into 4 ohms, measured, not in the specs, specs are mostly bull**** it seems. DSP is also needed because I will be using 2 subs at different distances.

What do you use for subs?
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post #16 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 07:00 AM
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Look in this forum for a thread by notnyt on testing amplifiers - has lots of good data on real world output of many of the amps you might consider using.
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post #17 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 09:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
You specifically said "sub amp" in the thread title, for which I find no reason why someone should spend lots of money on a digital end-to-end solution. It's not like you are gonna hear a vast difference. Tweeters and mids maybe... but not subwoofers.

You'd be better off buying big/better sub drivers or more of them then "worrying" about some microscopic amount of DAC improvement in the <200hz range that could be obtained by using zillion-dollar amps.

Unless we are talking flat to DC as a goal, then keeping it digital to the end MIGHT help, however... just about ALL amps apply some sort of 1-20hz HPF to protect themselves, so that's bound to be: all for nothing.

The only other case this might be handy, is if you are transmitting the bass a half-mile down a fiber cable to the sub-amp, or you are trying to increase the density on your rack by transmitting 32 subs through a single USB cable or Cat-5 into a boat-load of 1RU PowerSoft's. Crestron typically uses DB-25 ports for this sort of stuff in their "whole house" system solutions, 16 digital channels on a single compact-ish cable.

You won't hear the difference between 0.00001% and 0.01% @ <200hz. It just ain't gonna happen.

Save your money and brain-power by not thinking about this topic any further...

Is there even anything flat to DC? The Trinnov claims +/-.5db DC-20khz which is a good start but what to do next is my question? Speaker Power or what?
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post #18 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 10:45 AM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Is there even anything flat to DC?
All SS power amps are flat to DC. Most though have a series cap to block any external DC that may be applied to the input to save it from being amplified. In the real world, I'm yet to see an advantage to DC coupling of power amps.
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post #19 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
All SS power amps are flat to DC. Most though have a series cap to block any external DC that may be applied to the input to save it from being amplified. In the real world, I'm yet to see an advantage to DC coupling of power amps.
I'm just trying to select my new sub amps since my LG's roll off at 7-8hz. I want to have the capability to have output everywhere on the mix so would just like to know my options when talking about huge amounts of power for sealed subs or multi IB subs.
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post #20 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I'm just trying to select my new sub amps since my LG's roll off at 7-8hz. I want to have the capability to have output everywhere on the mix so would just like to know my options when talking about huge amounts of power for sealed subs or multi IB subs.
If you're willing to do a bit of work and void the warranty, changing the coupling cap is relatively straightforward. Then you can choose the roll off point.
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post #21 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 06:26 PM
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If you're willing to do a bit of work and void the warranty, changing the coupling cap is relatively straightforward. Then you can choose the roll off point.
Na I'll pass and settle for amps that roll off around 2-3hz if can find them. If I was tech savvy then maybe I'd try messing with the internals but I'm not so....
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post #22 of 27 Old 02-22-2017, 06:45 PM
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Here are two options:
1-channel:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...-dsp--300-8000

2-channel:
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...-dsp--300-8005

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post #23 of 27 Old 02-24-2017, 03:20 AM - Thread Starter
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If you're willing to do a bit of work and void the warranty, changing the coupling cap is relatively straightforward. Then you can choose the roll off point.
Ooh, interesting.

I was looking at the Behringer Inukes and I rejected them based on the FR specs. If I were to buy Behringers, I would definitely be voiding the warranty by putting 2x140mm fans in the top of the amp. Do you have more info on changing the coupling cap?
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post #24 of 27 Old 02-24-2017, 03:31 AM
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Ooh, interesting.

I was looking at the Behringer Inukes and I rejected them based on the FR specs. If I were to buy Behringers, I would definitely be voiding the warranty by putting 2x140mm fans in the top of the amp. Do you have more info on changing the coupling cap?
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...y-rolloff.html

I wouldn't put fans on top of the board. There are components that are bottom mounted and attached to the chassis that get some air flow from the rear mounted fans.

The 6k will give you about 2400w total output, burst potential to 3kw.
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post #25 of 27 Old 02-24-2017, 03:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Thank you for that notnyt!

Ok, its decided: Inuke 6000 DSP, filter and fan modded, and make a custom attenuating cable to deal with the ridiculously high input sensitivity. On 2 sealed UM15's. That should be enough to get stuff rattling and the wife complaining
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post #26 of 27 Old 02-24-2017, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by erik.vanhamme View Post
Thank you for that notnyt!

Ok, its decided: Inuke 6000 DSP, filter and fan modded, and make a custom attenuating cable to deal with the ridiculously high input sensitivity. On 2 sealed UM15's. That should be enough to get stuff rattling and the wife complaining
Usually need to BOOST the signal when driving a balanced input with an unbalanced output. Qtote from a review on PE's website suggests it needs a larger signal:
"You really need better than line level gain in to avoid low volume distortion. Any gain added in the dsp is distorted at low volume."

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post #27 of 27 Old 02-24-2017, 04:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Usually need to BOOST the signal when driving a balanced input with an unbalanced output. Qtote from a review on PE's website suggests it needs a larger signal:
"You really need better than line level gain in to avoid low volume distortion. Any gain added in the dsp is distorted at low volume."
The source is +16dBu balanced output, 6.9V peak. I definitely do not need boost

I really don't understand why the have such a sensitive input. My Behringer A500's have a +4.5dBu input. why doesn't this one?
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