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post #241 of 335 Old 06-02-2017, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by SAM ZEOLI View Post
Please explain, I am also very curious ( I am trying to think of an inexpensive way for a DIY guy to do this ). Thx a lot! Sam
Aside from "don't waste your time", you just need to select electronics without a rolloff, or modify the built in highpass/dc filters which in most cases means replacing some caps.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...y-rolloff.html
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post #242 of 335 Old 06-02-2017, 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by SAM ZEOLI View Post
Please explain, I am also very curious ( I am trying to think of an inexpensive way for a DIY guy to do this ). Thx a lot! Sam
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Aside from "don't waste your time", you just need to select electronics without a rolloff, or modify the built in highpass/dc filters which in most cases means replacing some caps.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...y-rolloff.html
Yeah.

Truthfully it's not worth the time or investment but if you're experienced at constructing and deconstructing circuits then by all means...

Otherwise choose your components carefully and also best to minimize the amount of components in the signal so there is less cascading effects of filters that are assured to be in place.
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post #243 of 335 Old 06-02-2017, 05:54 PM
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Surely there are components that will do sub 5hz out of the box? I'm not worried about the cost.

The k10/k20 won't do it? Or speakerpower?
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post #244 of 335 Old 06-02-2017, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
Surely there are components that will do sub 5hz out of the box? I'm not worried about the cost.

The k10/k20 won't do it? Or speakerpower?
Thx NOTNYT, that link was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I've just got to save up some money for a pair of Nicks subs, and pair it with this modded amp in my infinite baffle home theater. At least I hope it's that simple.
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post #245 of 335 Old 06-02-2017, 07:57 PM
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Surely there are components that will do sub 5hz out of the box? I'm not worried about the cost.

The k10/k20 won't do it? Or speakerpower?
@bossobass is one of the more experienced with <5hz electronics.

Maybe @Shreds can chime in as Bosso isn't on much these days.

Theoretically a pure digital output should be full range at least down to 2-3hz. Problem is that many of us use outboard signal processing of various sorts. It's just one (or more) component(s) to add to the rolloff down in the very last octave.

Imho, it's not worth compromising the entire system capabilities to insure a perfectly flat response to <5hz. About as minimal as it gets is a transport that can hook right up to amplification. Most people have a transport then a pre/pro then possibly signal processing and then amplification. Even that isn't all that elaborate but there are several instances right there for electronic rolloff to compound on itself.

Takes a LOT of care to make a system truly flat to 2hz.

I wouldn't put too much thought into it. If you can get yourself flat to 5hz.... you're doing pretty damn good. Everybody is going to have a hard time reproducing a 2hz signal.
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post #246 of 335 Old 06-02-2017, 08:01 PM
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What's the ideal box size if you are wanting to dig into < 5Hz?
To reach 5 Hz extension you will need to go either sealed or IB. Sealed will need a DSP processor and equipment without internal roll-off's above 5 Hz to help you reach that goal. Depends on how much output you want at 5 Hz too. 80 dB is no problem for almost any woofer but 120 dB is a different story. A customer that lives less than 3 hours from our shop has two HS-24's in an IB manifold in his attic firing down into his listening room powered by an Inuke 6k and without any DSP he can readily hit 116 dB at 8 Hz all the way up to 100 Hz without any EQ or DSP. The roll-off of the amplifier prohibits him from reaching the same SPL at 5 Hz but he is still at 110 dB at 5 Hz with plenty of output left from the 24's.
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post #247 of 335 Old 06-02-2017, 08:05 PM
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I don't think I've ever seen an inverted home theater sub.... Though that would look so cool if you had tried room. Showing off the big neo motor etc. Hopefully someone will do that!
That's the only way the SHS-24 would fit into a 5 ft^3 box - inverted. The enclosure would lightly resemble a pancake since the width and length would need to be at least a 25" square.
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post #248 of 335 Old 06-03-2017, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
That's the only way the SHS-24 would fit into a 5 ft^3 box - inverted. The enclosure would lightly resemble a pancake since the width and length would need to be at least a 25" square.
Nick/Scott. Thanks for your insights. I appreciate it very much! Sam
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post #249 of 335 Old 06-03-2017, 04:48 PM
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Surely there are components that will do sub 5hz out of the box? I'm not worried about the cost.

The k10/k20 won't do it? Or speakerpower?
It's OK to have some rolloff on the amp but not too much. If you're 3dB down at 10Hz on an amp you're probably pretty screwed on getting much happening at 3Hz. Since signal chain rolloff is cumlative you have to pretty much have no rolloff on the small signal stuff. This means a flat AVR output, and if you're going to use EQ for the sub channel it has to be something like the avrnano or something that does the EQ in the digital domain. There aren't too many members posting loopback results for sub out rolloff on the latest AVR's so you'll just have to buy one and do it yourself. If it's amount of rolloff is unacceptable, return it and move on to another option.
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post #250 of 335 Old 06-03-2017, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
It's OK to have some rolloff on the amp but not too much. If you're 3dB down at 10Hz on an amp you're probably pretty screwed on getting much happening at 3Hz. Since signal chain rolloff is cumlative you have to pretty much have no rolloff on the small signal stuff. This means a flat AVR output, and if you're going to use EQ for the sub channel it has to be something like the avrnano or something that does the EQ in the digital domain. There aren't too many members posting loopback results for sub out rolloff on the latest AVR's so you'll just have to buy one and do it yourself. If it's amount of rolloff is unacceptable, return it and move on to another option.
Are there any pre-pro's that fit the bill? I'm guessing something like a marantz won't cut it, right?
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post #251 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 05:37 AM
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Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I don't think I've ever seen an inverted home theater sub.... Though that would look so cool if you had tried room. Showing off the big neo motor etc. Hopefully someone will do that!

IB FTW, I plan on rearrange my manifold at some point and this is on my list, so little money, so little time. This dude hit it out of the park

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post #252 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by SAM ZEOLI View Post
Are there any pre-pro's that fit the bill? I'm guessing something like a marantz won't cut it, right?
It can but this depends on the model. Here is the sub out on a AV7702 that I tested for example:

This is a good unit for sealed systems as you can see from the response.

There are probably some Denons that will look similar because they are from the same company. My point is just that you have to verify yourself what your sub out is doing with a loopback measurement, see what you're working with and go from there.
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post #253 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
It can but this depends on the model. Here is the sub out on a AV7702 that I tested for example:

This is a good unit for sealed systems as you can see from the response.

There are probably some Denons that will look similar because they are from the same company. My point is just that you have to verify yourself what your sub out is doing with a loopback measurement, see what you're working with and go from there.
That looks pretty damn good to me!

If one wants 5hz extension and starting from scratch, build the room so it has maximum gain and then the electronics follows. Even the cheap Inuke is -3 dB at 5hz. The sanway FP14k was flat to 3 hz in my room and the 4 channel was flat to 6hz. So you buy the marantz, FP14k(speaker power are great down low based on the measurements here and DB forums), the HS 24 and place it in a big box and you should be flat to 5hz without DSP. Oh, and have a world class bass system.

Building the room, speakers, and subs.
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post #254 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 07:25 AM
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Doesn't the newer SHS24 have more excursion therefore better ULF?

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post #255 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 08:20 AM
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Doesn't the newer SHS24 have more excursion therefore better ULF?
Thx Shreds.
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post #256 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 08:46 AM
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IB FTW, I plan on rearrange my manifold at some point and this is on my list, so little money, so little time. This dude hit it out of the park

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3KCXn4d4dk
Yup that looks super cool. It's funny, when I was into car audio, inverted was all the rage. Especially with some of these beautiful motors. It sure would look cool. Ya you have some mechanical noise etc but still lol

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post #257 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 10:52 AM
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Wouldn't an inverted driver have less SD?
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post #258 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 02:04 PM
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Wouldn't an inverted driver have less SD?
I don't think it makes any difference. From what I remember in my car audio days, if didn't make any difference and I im sure in an IB is doesn't either.....But I could be wrong, im not 100% sure.

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post #259 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 02:46 PM
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Wouldn't an inverted driver have less SD?
Are you proposing that a cone doesn't have the same amount of surface area on both sides>? The only case I could see that being true would be if the motor was vented to the front, with a phase plug and solid pole piece.

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post #260 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 03:07 PM
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The front of the cone has a dust cap which is calculated as part of sd. The back goes into the motor without the dust cap area. A driver like the UM18 has a much different profile on either side of the cone.
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post #261 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
It can but this depends on the model. Here is the sub out on a AV7702 that I tested for example:

This is a good unit for sealed systems as you can see from the response.

There are probably some Denons that will look similar because they are from the same company. My point is just that you have to verify yourself what your sub out is doing with a loopback measurement, see what you're working with and go from there.
How do you do a loopback measurement? I'm assuming all the flagship AV units from Marantz, Denon, etc should be satisfactory? (AV8802A, etc...)
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post #262 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Doesn't the newer SHS24 have more excursion therefore better ULF?
@Electrodynamic I was wondering this as well....
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post #263 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 05:14 PM
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That looks pretty damn good to me!

If one wants 5hz extension and starting from scratch, build the room so it has maximum gain and then the electronics follows. Even the cheap Inuke is -3 dB at 5hz. The sanway FP14k was flat to 3 hz in my room and the 4 channel was flat to 6hz. So you buy the marantz, FP14k(speaker power are great down low based on the measurements here and DB forums), the HS 24 and place it in a big box and you should be flat to 5hz without DSP. Oh, and have a world class bass system.
How would you build the room for maximum gain? Isn't it a crap shoot?

Are the SpeakerPower amps just as good <5hz as the FP14k's?
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post #264 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Doesn't the newer SHS24 have more excursion therefore better ULF?
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
@Electrodynamic I was wondering this as well....
Linear excursion does not dictate LFE but rather T/S parameters determine the LFE of a single sealed subwoofer. LFE does, however, impact the SPL ability of a sealed box subwoofer system with all other parameters of a comparable system being exactly the same. The HS-24 has 38 mm of one-way linear excursion where the SHS-24 has 47 mm of one-way linear excursion. Take a look at the differences in the F3 of the drivers and even model them up if you wish. It takes twice the power for the SHS to best the HS in terms of output and even at that double the power the LFE is only marginally improved [+1 dB at 20 Hz] with the SHS. At 2,000 watts for the HS-24 and 3,000 watts for the SHS-24 the HS-24 will still have more output below 60 Hz. It literally takes power levels upwards of 3,000 watts for the SHS to take the reins in ouptput if/when you stop the HS-23 at 2,000 watts. In our opinion the HS-24 is a better all-around subwoofer and it is also nearly half the cost of an SHS. For the price of one SHS-24 you could purchase two HS-24's. But if you MUST send a single driver 4,000 watts the SHS is the clear winner.
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post #265 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Linear excursion does not dictate LFE but rather T/S parameters determine the LFE of a single sealed subwoofer. LFE does, however, impact the SPL ability of a sealed box subwoofer system with all other parameters of a comparable system being exactly the same. The HS-24 has 38 mm of one-way linear excursion where the SHS-24 has 47 mm of one-way linear excursion. Take a look at the differences in the F3 of the drivers and even model them up if you wish. It takes twice the power for the SHS to best the HS in terms of output and even at that double the power the LFE is only marginally improved [+1 dB at 20 Hz] with the SHS. At 2,000 watts for the HS-24 and 3,000 watts for the SHS-24 the HS-24 will still have more output below 60 Hz. It literally takes power levels upwards of 3,000 watts for the SHS to take the reins in ouptput if/when you stop the HS-23 at 2,000 watts. In our opinion the HS-24 is a better all-around subwoofer and it is also nearly half the cost of an SHS. For the price of one SHS-24 you could purchase two HS-24's. But if you MUST send a single driver 4,000 watts the SHS is the clear winner.
I havent modelled these, and dont really have any interest in selling more drivers for you, but what is happening at 5hz in the same size box. Im aware the BH24 is more effecient in a big box around 20-30hz, but thats not the point.

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post #266 of 335 Old 06-04-2017, 11:49 PM
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How would you build the room for maximum gain? Isn't it a crap shoot?...

The dimensions of the room directly correlate to bass frequency wavelengths. The right size room will maximize gain at certain frequencies.

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post #267 of 335 Old 06-05-2017, 03:59 AM
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The dimensions of the room directly correlate to bass frequency wavelengths. The right size room will maximize gain at certain frequencies.
Yes, but what is the "right size" room? What deminsion ratio etc?
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post #268 of 335 Old 06-05-2017, 07:21 AM
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Yes, but what is the "right size" room? What deminsion ratio etc?
At 5hz its mostly all constructive for room gain. A 5hz wavelength is about 68m long. Thats why we see room gain in pretty much every room comparison against the anechoic response of the sub.

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post #269 of 335 Old 06-05-2017, 01:53 PM
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Both drivers in 14 cubes fed 2500W:
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post #270 of 335 Old 06-05-2017, 02:30 PM
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Thanks Shreds. Im surprised the HS has almost 2db on it down low.
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