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post #181 of 274 Old 07-25-2018, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
These are the eminence alpha 4s and peerless tweets. There is another peerless and a Dayton I want to try.
Have you landed on a final line array configuration?
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post #182 of 274 Old 07-25-2018, 12:54 PM - Thread Starter
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I am sticking with eminence drivers. I am designing my own ported box with sliding dovetail joints, no glue, screws, or nails. I will seal them with gasket tape or silicon.
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post #183 of 274 Old 07-25-2018, 03:37 PM
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Are you using the stock crossover and stock tweeters?
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post #184 of 274 Old 07-26-2018, 01:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Are you using the stock crossover and stock tweeters?
No, I am using all eminence parts. Not done yet though. Any eq work to make flat will be digital. I just need protection. I matched impedance and sensitivity pretty good but still have not gotten to that yet. The F3 is 80hz, if sealed then it becomes 120hz.
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post #185 of 274 Old 07-26-2018, 02:56 PM
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Why the no glue box? Just for fun?
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post #186 of 274 Old 08-04-2018, 01:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
No, I am using all eminence parts. Not done yet though. Any eq work to make flat will be digital. I just need protection. I matched impedance and sensitivity pretty good but still have not gotten to that yet. The F3 is 80hz, if sealed then it becomes 120hz.
So your TLAH version is the Eminence Alpha 4, Peerless Tweets, and Dayton crossover? Is that right? Or are you using these Eminence tweeters Eminence Tweets
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post #187 of 274 Old 08-05-2018, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I am in between designs. I am putting together what I have left over. I want the no glue just to see and for fun. I will still seal them from inside. The pictured TLAH is the alpha 4, peerless tweet, and a Dayton crossover. I am using it as my center right now. I will build another to match. I have some dayton tweeters and other peerless tweeters lying around I want to try. My end game wanted to be the eminence tweeter you linked to.

That pictured TLAH is 7 dB more sensitive than my regular TLAH.

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post #188 of 274 Old 12-11-2018, 07:13 AM
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MKtheater - Which speakers have you got the inspiration from? And audible - are they in another league then let's say, a horn speaker?

I saw a interesting speaker which is kinda similar-ish looking to yours, Mondo 12 . Is this what you are aiming for?
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post #189 of 274 Old 12-11-2018, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Sebkarlbjork View Post
MKtheater - Which speakers have you got the inspiration from? And audible - are they in another league then let's say, a horn speaker?

I saw a interesting speaker which is kinda similar-ish looking to yours, Mondo 12 . Is this what you are aiming for?
I never seen those before. The problem with ribbons, soft domes, and planar tweets are they don't play loud enough to have the dynamics for reference level cinema. This is why I use arrays, enough to have high sensitivity. I have to take pics, I built an array ported at 80hz, using the alpha 4 and dayton tweets, sounds great. I am building and dual 12 with dual ring radiators as well. Once I figure out which design I like I will build 5 matching for the base channels.

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post #190 of 274 Old 12-11-2018, 09:33 AM
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Nice thread! I like how you are experimenting with the different configurations.

Sony XBR65x900e / STR-DN1080 / original PS4 / WOW! Ultra TV / Quantum Access Mini PC Stick w/Windows 10 / 8 x Rockville SPG88 8“ DJ PA Speakers / Dayton Audio SA1000 / Kicker 08S15L74 in a Tapped-Tapered Quarter Wave Tube (negative flare tapped horn).
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post #191 of 274 Old 12-11-2018, 10:30 AM
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Just posting for those interested in the subs MKTheater is using. They are on sale for 690.00 so 269.00 off.

No clue on shipping as it says TRUCK ONLY.

https://www.parts-express.com/re-aud...72005c0a1c0e13
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post #192 of 274 Old 12-11-2018, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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They come in sonotubes! they are very heavy. I am thinking about getting two more. I know 4 dayton UM18 would be about the same for cheaper but having these is just different. Having less drivers that perform like a wall of subs is really cool.
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post #193 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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So far everyone likes the new speaker the best. It has two dayton 12 inch woofers and 9 dual ring radiators with an eminence crossover. I built the cabinet with miter locked joints out of solid pine. This is much better than plywood IMHO, more expensive too. It smells like cutting a christmas tree when working on it. I have to take pics. I have the 9 tweets on top with the dual 12s on bottom, like a jbl 4722 but with an array on top rather than a horn. These really sound great. They are sealed and can run really low in my room. I want to try to split the woofers on top and bottom as well. I am afraid most of the tweets will be below my ears this way where now they are below, even, and above. The speaker measure 48x14x8.
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post #194 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 02:37 PM
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I though arrays were suppose to run vertically to give a wide pattern while reducing ceiling and floor bounce. Running them horizontally would have the opposite effect.
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post #195 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I though arrays were suppose to run vertically to give a wide pattern while reducing ceiling and floor bounce. Running them horizontally would have the opposite effect.
They are vertical. Vertical array of dual ring radiators above dual 12s, all centered on the front baffle.

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post #196 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 02:57 PM - Thread Starter
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One other thing that shocked me. Everytime I used separates I would get a buzz through all my speakers no matter what, except for McIntosh. All these years I thought cables did not matter and especially monster cable with their over priced stuff. Well, I bought their HDMI cable because of it locking in place and not falling out and no HDMI issues with them either. Besides they have a free upgrade path. So with the success of their cable I tried one of their M1000 interconnects and low and behold after 12 years of buzz it is now gone! I went from mogami to these and it is gone! I can't believe it. Of course no sound difference but the noise floor is projector again, me likey!
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post #197 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 04:29 PM
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Soft dome tweeters can play plenty loud enough for reference level HT... so long as frequency range is limited.

A small dome playing down to 1.2 kHz? Not a chance. 2 kHz? Not likely. 4 kHz? Now we're talking.

But that leaves the question of what can play up to 4 kHz to blend? Not your favorite 6.5" or 8" midrange/midbass driver, that's for sure. And certainly not a 10“ or 12“ midbass commonly seen here.

The rampant use of horn tweeters is a result of the desire to pair them with large midbass drivers. Or stated differently, the inadequacy of a small dome tweeter for HT is a direct corallary of the refusal to pair them with the appropriate midrange.
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post #198 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I have them paired with dual 12s crosses at 1.6 kHz. Using arrays makes them much more sensitive and you don’t even tax them. I do have tweeters that require 4K crosses and use 4.5 inch drivers with them.

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post #199 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 08:23 PM
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I have them paired with dual 12s crosses at 1.6 kHz. Using arrays makes them much more sensitive and you don’t even tax them. I do have tweeters that require 4K crosses and use 4.5 inch drivers with them.
Sorry wasn't referring to your arrays specifically. Line arrays are obviously one way to combine small dome tweets and large midrange/midbass. Was speaking more generically about the unspoken concensus here that small domes can't do reference for HT and horns are the only game in town. There's more than one way to skin that cat. And you are using a good one.
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post #200 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
Soft dome tweeters can play plenty loud enough for reference level HT... so long as frequency range is limited.

A small dome playing down to 1.2 kHz? Not a chance. 2 kHz? Not likely. 4 kHz? Now we're talking.

But that leaves the question of what can play up to 4 kHz to blend? Not your favorite 6.5" or 8" midrange/midbass driver, that's for sure. And certainly not a 10“ or 12“ midbass commonly seen here.

The rampant use of horn tweeters is a result of the desire to pair them with large midbass drivers. Or stated differently, the inadequacy of a small dome tweeter for HT is a direct corallary of the refusal to pair them with the appropriate midrange.

Direct radiating dome tweeters have inherent low sensitivity, and limited coil area for cooling. If you sit close to your speakers, it is possible that a dome tweeter can work for you.
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Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #201 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 09:25 PM
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Direct radiating dome tweeters have inherent low sensitivity, and limited coil area for cooling. If you sit close to your speakers, it is possible that a dome tweeter can work for you.
How much volume displacement is required to reach reference at normal listening distances at 4 kHz?

Not much.

How much content >4kHz at OdBfs is contained in typical source material?

Not much.

Lots of repeating that dome tweeters can't be used in a HT, but implicit is the qualification 'in a certain way.'

More productive to ask how they CAN be used in a HT, and then consider whether that approach is one you personally want to take.
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post #202 of 274 Old 12-26-2018, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
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How much volume displacement is required to reach reference at normal listening distances at 4 kHz?

Not much.

I concur, not a lot of volume displacement is needed at 4 khz, 16 times less displacement than at 1khz for the same sound pressure level. More importantly, what is the sensitivity of the average dome direct radiator tweeter... answer around 87-89 dB/w.



At my listening distance, I would require about 500 watts into that low a sensitivity tweeter to hit 105 dB peaks at the listening position. With a sensitive compression driver, I need approximately 5 watts of power in the 4 khz range. I'll take 'less thermal compression' for $ 100.00, Alex.


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How much content >4kHz at OdBfs is contained in typical source material?

Not much.

I haven't done Spectrum lab signal analysis in many years, so I am not qualified to answer that. Besides, what is 'typical'?



I found an 2017 AES paper mentioning long term average levels of typical music, and from what I can see, -20dB at 4 khz is in the 90th percentile of whatever music they analyzed, compared to the level of bass at 100 hz. This is not peak level.



4 watts into a 3" coil is going to be a heck of a lot less thermal dissipation than even 100 watts into a 1" coil.



If you sit closer than I do to your speakers and only ever play at reference volume level or below, then a single low sensitivity tweeter may work for you, given ample power.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #203 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 04:08 AM
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I've seen and heard lots of home theaters that use speakers with domes in them. I haven't listened to domes in quite a while so I'm also very biased.


I often times see domes go for crazy prices, where there are some that offer a great price/perf ratio, the better ones (aka hi-fi) usually go for what you'd pay for a semi-decent CD or even ribbon/AMT.


I think one of the better items got brought up though, how much content is above 4k? I think the better question is ... how much content is above 10k? or even really 14k. These are the areas where the more sensitive CD's or other tweeters start falling off and designers typically put something in their design to cover this "lost" area, IMO unnecessary design goals.


The best you can do is create a design that covers 400hz-8k with either no cross over or minimal cross over effects and of course ... point source.

Last edited by Trimlock; 12-27-2018 at 04:15 AM.
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post #204 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 04:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Direct radiating dome tweeters have inherent low sensitivity, and limited coil area for cooling. If you sit close to your speakers, it is possible that a dome tweeter can work for you.
I agree, I would never use one tweeter for reference level HT.
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post #205 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 06:43 AM
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The best you can do is create a design that covers 400hz-8k with either no cross over or minimal cross over effects and of course ... point source.
Well, that's one way to skin the cat but every design choice and path comes with its own set of compromises. You can only approach "best" relative to a set of goals and chosen compromises. A horn covering 400-8000Hz certainly isn't the "best" for all uses, before even considering personal preferences.

Which is my point really. AVS tends to get stuck in ruts a decade or more in length where one design type dominates all thought and discussion. There are lots of ways to approach the problem, all with their own unique benefits and weaknesses.

Like MK's line arrays (which were more popular here fifteen years ago). Great to see him take that approach. A small dome tweeter certainly has its limitations as has been rightly pointed out. For reference level in typical spaces, it is limited to a range many might consider supertweeter territory. But in that range, it does fine.

BTW, you do not have to cross a tweeter at 800Hz (!) to keep point source behavior. That limitation comes from pairing them with large 12", 15, or even 18" drivers, and from the huge physical size of the horn. Of course, from another perspective that "limitation" becomes a "design goal", as in "either no cross over or minimal cross over effects". But a tweeter crossed at 4kHz can maintain point source behavior as well. All in how you approach the problem and prioritize the compromises.
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post #206 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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In my room 7 different people prefer the sound of these



over these
DIY JBL(best JBL design I owned)


which were preferred over these
BFM DR-250


which were preferred over these
JBL 3622


which were preferred over these
JTR triple 8


which were preferred over these
M&K S-5000THX


which started it all for me. That last picture were the M&K S-5000THX speakers that sound fantastic. There were quite a bit in between speakers as well. I have had the same people listen to my room for 12 years. My latest speaker with dual 12s, 9 Dual ring radiators(resonant frequency of 800hz or so, crossed at 1.6khz) sound the best to everybody. Clean, ultra detailed, huge sound stage, and non fatiguing. Some of the big horns I have had covered 500hz to 12khz easily and these are still preferred. I also had Fusion pure 10s, klipsch, other JBls, Sho-10s, Yorkvilles, behringers, axiom, magnepan, etc...
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post #207 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 09:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
BTW, you do not have to cross a tweeter at 800Hz (!) to keep point source behavior. That limitation comes from pairing them with large 12", 15, or even 18" drivers, and from the huge physical size of the horn. Of course, from another perspective that "limitation" becomes a "design goal", as in "either no cross over or minimal cross over effects". But a tweeter crossed at 4kHz can maintain point source behavior as well. All in how you approach the problem and prioritize the compromises.
You can cross lower than 800hz to maintain point source, you can even cheat a little bit and use a unity horn. Either way you can get summation at the "listening" distance you are aiming for without staying 100% true to the 1/4 c-c spacing, it all depends on what you are working with


If the tweeter achieves perfect summation and you maintain directionality. On a direct radiating set up, yes you can that's one of the benefits of line arrays.
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post #208 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 09:10 AM - Thread Starter
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I have also listen to the Yorkville U215 in this room, neck and neck with the DR-250s I had, the yorks had better bass and the DRs had a little better midrange IMHO. I liked my DIY JBL better than both and the TLAH better than that. My DIY versions just use better drivers for a slightly smoother sound.
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post #209 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 01:46 PM
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@MKtheater I’m looking forward to pics of your latest line array — what tweeter and what mids are you using?

Do you find line arrays of this moderate size require a longer listening distance to integrate? Thinking about surrounds..

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post #210 of 274 Old 12-27-2018, 02:44 PM
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MK,
Your TLAH speakers look nice. What is it that makes them better than the other speakers you mentioned?

Having fun playing the new mobile game Volley Village
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