Crown XLS amp for the sealed UM 18-22 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 66 Old 05-30-2018, 08:15 PM
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You have your gain structure set too high. Your subwoofer trim should not be positive with input attenuators maxes. You are potentially clipping the signal and possibly that’s what fried your last sub. I’ve heard it said, and it’s advice I follow that if your going to reference volume on your main volume. (O). Then your sub trims should NOT go above 0 and to give you a margin of safety with redirected bass from the other speakers crossover point you shouldn’t go above -3dB on the subwoofer trim.

Especially if you are doing tests like playing sine waves. If you aren’t getting the output you want change your input voltage to .775 and lower your subwoofer trim significantly.

Your gain structure is a mess right now.

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post #32 of 66 Old 05-30-2018, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
Im actually getting better results now. Still getting lots of red lights from tbe crown. Have the gain on the amp set to max... and the level on the avr is set to +6. Maybe all I need now is to i corporate a mini dsp to be able to set some limiters and boots some freq.
also to double check, amp in bridge mode with the rca connected to channel 1, subwoofer positive to channel 1 positive and subwoofer neg to channel 2 positive ( assuming your using binding posts ) to reiterate, nothing should be connected to a negative terminal on the amp.

EDIT: also double check that there isn't a crossover engaged on the crown.

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Last edited by VisionxOrb; 05-30-2018 at 10:27 PM.
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post #33 of 66 Old 05-30-2018, 09:46 PM
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Originally Posted by VisionxOrb View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by canillo View Post
Im actually getting better results now. Still getting lots of red lights from tbe crown. Have the gain on the amp set to max... and the level on the avr is set to +6. Maybe all I need now is to i corporate a mini dsp to be able to set some limiters and boots some freq.
Is the crown still in 1.4v mode or .775
the crown is still at .775v
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post #34 of 66 Old 05-30-2018, 09:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canillo View Post
Im actually getting better results now. Still getting lots of red lights from tbe crown. Have the gain on the amp set to max... and the level on the avr is set to +6. Maybe all I need now is to i corporate a mini dsp to be able to set some limiters and boots some freq.
Is the crown still in 1.4v mode or .775
the crown oa set to .775v
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post #35 of 66 Old 05-30-2018, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
You have your gain structure set too high. Your subwoofer trim should not be positive with input attenuators maxes. You are potentially clipping the signal and possibly that’s what fried your last sub. I’ve heard it said, and it’s advice I follow that if your going to reference volume on your main volume. (O). Then your sub trims should NOT go above 0 and to give you a margin of safety with redirected bass from the other speakers crossover point you shouldn’t go above -3dB on the subwoofer trim.

Especially if you are doing tests like playing sine waves. If you aren’t getting the output you want change your input voltage to .775 and lower your subwoofer trim significantly.

Your gain structure is a mess right now.
I completly agree... but it is the only way Im getting any desend output from the sub and amp. I dont know what else to do. If I go lower on any of them I cant match the output of my double impact mains. As when I had the plate amp with 1,200 watts I had my avr set to -6 and the gain on the amp to -20db
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post #36 of 66 Old 05-30-2018, 10:28 PM
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Could it be that the PE included plate amp comes with a specific setup when you order it with the kit? Almost like the one Speaker Power puts into their plate amp? Its weird because Speaker Power is a very well known amps company and they claim that the UM 18-22 cannot handle more than 1000rms without producing a good amount of distortion and clipping. They actually said that they had to set limiters on their 700rms because the UM18 could not handle the 700 watts at some freq. They actually bought and have the UM18-22 with the 4ct sealed box that parts express sells, it was such a popular combo that they wanted to set up an amp for it. They do not recommend getting the 700plate amp without the UM18 eq preset unless a dsp is going to be used to set limiters. They also admited they kept it safe, meaning they could have prob push the woofer a bit more but they wanted to keep the woofer in its optimum performance area. I can actually tell the sub was able to handle more than what they had set on their 700 amp. But I really dont understand how some guys claim they are pushing over 1,500 rms to the sub. With my experience on this sub it cannot handle more than 1,500rms at least not at all freq.
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post #37 of 66 Old 05-30-2018, 10:36 PM
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@canillo

Did you double check the connection to the amp? I bring it up because Ive made the mistake a few times thinking I wired it up a speaker bridged but muscle memory took over during connecting and turned out it wasn't.

Using both center red positive posts as your + and - correct?

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post #38 of 66 Old 05-31-2018, 01:14 AM
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@canillo

Did you double check the connection to the amp? I bring it up because Ive made the mistake a few times thinking I wired it up a speaker bridged but muscle memory took over during connecting and turned out it wasn't.

Using both center red positive posts as your + and - correct?
yes. I am using only the red terminals... the positive conected to the right red and the negative conected to the left red. I feel like Im getting more power now. Problem is still getting red lights on amp, but now its not as often. I think my problem is DSP. If Im able to turn the gain down and level on the gear and go to the dsp and apply some filters on my dips maybe it will give me the a solid output at all freq. Its the only other thing I can think of that I am missing. Attached is a pic of the set up
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post #39 of 66 Old 05-31-2018, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
I completly agree... but it is the only way Im getting any desend output from the sub and amp. I dont know what else to do. If I go lower on any of them I cant match the output of my double impact mains. As when I had the plate amp with 1,200 watts I had my avr set to -6 and the gain on the amp to -20db
What are your speakers set to in your receiver? Small or large? Crossover settings? LFE settings?

I wouldn't apply any eq until you have your gain problem under control.
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post #40 of 66 Old 05-31-2018, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
I completly agree... but it is the only way Im getting any desend output from the sub and amp. I dont know what else to do. If I go lower on any of them I cant match the output of my double impact mains. As when I had the plate amp with 1,200 watts I had my avr set to -6 and the gain on the amp to -20db
What are your speakers set to in your receiver? Small or large? Crossover settings? LFE settings?

I wouldn't apply any eq until you have your gain problem under control.
center channel, atmos and surrounds are set to small. L and R are set to large.
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post #41 of 66 Old 05-31-2018, 09:23 AM
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center channel, atmos and surrounds are set to small. L and R are set to large.
There you go. Set all speakers to small.
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post #42 of 66 Old 05-31-2018, 12:57 PM
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center channel, atmos and surrounds are set to small. L and R are set to large.
There you go. Set all speakers to small.
I tought about it, but then each tower has a dual 10" inch that can do 60hz clean. I never had to do so much to integrate the sub before. Ill try it anyways to see how it changes things.
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post #43 of 66 Old 06-03-2018, 05:09 PM
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Things have defenetly gotten better after playing around with the setup. I think the crown XLS is a good match for this subwoofer. At some freq its defenetly too much power.. and at some prob not enought power. I just placed an order on a mini dsp and mini dsp calibrated mic to run REW and see where the amp its cutting off. I think the difference I noticed between the crown and the spa 1200 plate amp from parts express is that the plate amp was not rolling off as much below 20hz and that is why it seem like the plate amp was more powerfull. But above 20hz I can tell the crown provides more power. Does anyone have this same set up? Maybe they can share they settings?does anyone know how much the xls 1502 rolls off below 20hz? I think there has to be a way for me to figure out how many watts the driver can take at different freq. That would help me set some limiters. One more thing... Ive watch some videos people share with beringers and crowns... with this subwoofer and it looks like both amps usually hit the red lights. Does the red light means distortion or does it mean tooo much power going to the speaker? Is there a difference in those 2? And is it safe if the red light comes up for a very short moment? These subs just became available in parts express so I order a couple more. Because Im thinking if the crown has to stay in the green light AT ALL TIME .. then I defenetly want more output....meaning I will have to add another subwoofer. Any input will be much appreciated. Thanks!!
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post #44 of 66 Old 06-08-2018, 11:37 PM
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Got this measurements on the um 18-22 sealed with the crown xls 1502. Any suggestions other than fixing that peak at 35hz? Im surprised !! It seems the crown does put out good power all the way down to 10hz. But this sub does not do well after 80hz seems like 70hz is the best LPF for it.
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post #45 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
Got this measurements on the um 18-22 sealed with the crown xls 1502. Any suggestions other than fixing that peak at 35hz? Im surprised !! It seems the crown does put out good power all the way down to 10hz. But this sub does not do well after 80hz seems like 70hz is the best LPF for it.
Is this with no dsp/eq active? Or with the MiniDSP?
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post #46 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by canillo View Post
Got this measurements on the um 18-22 sealed with the crown xls 1502. Any suggestions other than fixing that peak at 35hz? Im surprised !! It seems the crown does put out good power all the way down to 10hz. But this sub does not do well after 80hz seems like 70hz is the best LPF for it.
Is this with no dsp/eq active? Or with the MiniDSP?
no dsp ... no eq.. But I did realize the crown xls was set to LPF at 80hz. No mini dsp yet. Also because I wanted to add another sub... I received a new one from parts express yesterday... because Parts Express has been having some quality control issues I decided to swap the driver and test the new driver to see if it was working properly before starting the new build. Running the test all set up the same. REW kept saying clipping was detected.. and It said I now have 0db of headroom. Tried everything and have no idea on whats going on. I tought it was because the new driver could handle more power..so hooked up the xls 2002 to feed 2,100rms. Ran the test and got the same problem. How ever the measurements came out as flat as ive ever seen before. I take out the new driver and put in the old one again, and now Im getti g the same problem with the old one too...????? How is this happening now.
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post #47 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 03:59 PM
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Im not an expert with rew but maybe "clipping detected" is from the microphone clipping.

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post #48 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 05:17 PM
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Yup, I just posted in the other thread Zero headroom means that the mic is clipping to me.
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post #49 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 05:37 PM
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Im not an expert with rew but maybe "clipping detected" is from the microphone clipping.
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Yup, I just posted in the other thread [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] Zero headroom means that the mic is clipping to me.
how can I fix this? I dont remember doing anything different from the last time.
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post #50 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 06:50 PM
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The quick think would be to just turn it down (your AVR) 15db or so and see where you're at. You can still do sweeps. The right thing would probably be to use REW to set all your levels (calibrate) again.
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post #51 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 07:03 PM
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The quick think would be to just turn it down (your AVR) 15db or so and see where you're at. You can still do sweeps. The right thing would probably be to use REW to set all your levels (calibrate) again.
does the REW headroom indicate amp headroom or mic? I understand that in this particular situation Im prob clipping the mic...but if the mic is not clipping.. is the available headroom shown from the amp or mic still?
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post #52 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 08:32 PM
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does the REW headroom indicate amp headroom or mic? I understand that in this particular situation Im prob clipping the mic...but if the mic is not clipping.. is the available headroom shown from the amp or mic still?

It's headroom for the mic so the volume (SPL) is too loud for it.



Just out of curiosity, and I'm not sure that this will affect your headroom (but I suspect it will), did you load a calibration file for the mic?
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post #53 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 08:40 PM
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does the REW headroom indicate amp headroom or mic? I understand that in this particular situation Im prob clipping the mic...but if the mic is not clipping.. is the available headroom shown from the amp or mic still?

It's headroom for the mic so the volume (SPL) is too loud for it.



Just out of curiosity, and I'm not sure that this will affect your headroom (but I suspect it will), did you load a calibration file for the mic?
yes.... everytime I close and open REW and plug in the mic. It asks for the file. I actually did get to run it with out any issues.. headroom was low but it did it. Had to turn everything down a LOT. I guess to run REW I dont need high SPL correct?This is what I got. If you compare to the first one you can see how much lower I had to set up the amp and receiver.
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post #54 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 09:00 PM
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I believe I read that the max SPL for the UMIK is 105db. Looks like your graphs prove that out.


My sweeps average around 90db and REW tells me that I have about 15db of headroom so the 105db limit makes sense.


REW had a recommendation for the headroom it wants to see but I can't remember what it is. There's no problem turning it down as long as you're far enough away from the noise floor.. You're still even a little close to the SPL limit.
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post #55 of 66 Old 06-09-2018, 09:10 PM
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I believe I read that the max SPL for the UMIK is 105db. Looks like your graphs prove that out.


My sweeps average around 90db and REW tells me that I have about 15db of headroom so the 105db limit makes sense.


REW had a recommendation for the headroom it wants to see but I can't remember what it is. There's no problem turning it down as long as you're far enough away from the noise floor.. You're still even a little close to the SPL limit.
i will play with it tonight after work a little more and report tomorrow. Thanks a lot for your input. Are you running the same set up? Um18-22 sealed with the crown xls 1502? Im wondering if the 1502 is struggling to move the um 18. Wonder if I should get the 2002.
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post #56 of 66 Old 06-10-2018, 05:20 AM
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I'm not there yet I've got a pair of UM18's that recently arrived and I'm waiting on the sealed flatpacks from Parts Express. I bought a NU6000DSP to drive them. It's my first DIY, but I have been using REW to help me with room reflections. I've been installing acoustic panels where needed (first reflection points) and now I'm moving on to the subs (I currently just have a 5.0 system in this room. Time for a sub or two!)


I've never owned a Crown amp but folks here rave about them. I got the iNuke just for "bang for the buck". If you're just driving one sub, that Crown is more than enough I would think (1550W into 4ohms right?) Plenty.
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post #57 of 66 Old 06-10-2018, 09:18 PM
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I'm not there yet [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] I've got a pair of UM18's that recently arrived and I'm waiting on the sealed flatpacks from Parts Express. I bought a NU6000DSP to drive them. It's my first DIY, but I have been using REW to help me with room reflections. I've been installing acoustic panels where needed (first reflection points) and now I'm moving on to the subs (I currently just have a 5.0 system in this room. Time for a sub or two!)


I've never owned a Crown amp but folks here rave about them. I got the iNuke just for "bang for the buck". If you're just driving one sub, that Crown is more than enough I would think (1550W into 4ohms right?) Plenty.
yes the xls 1502 puts out 1550 rms at 4ohm bridge. I didnt get a chance to run more test last night hopefully I will get to it tonight.
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post #58 of 66 Old 06-11-2018, 12:30 PM
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I was able to run some tests again. Same situation. If I keep the volume VERY low... it will run the measurement no problem with aroun 6db headroom. But at this point I can barely hear the test sound. How is it even possible to get acurate measurements at such low volume?amd how come I was able to run test at higher volunes the first day with out any issues? Anyone can reccomend a thread for this?
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post #59 of 66 Old 06-11-2018, 08:37 PM
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Thanks but actually what I already have is an HVAC style contactor relay in a Nema rated box, controlled by a deco wall switch, which energizes the power outlets, shown on the right hand side, that all the amps are plugged into (I used to be in the HVACR biz). Instead of triggers and remote control to power up the amps, just have the wall switch that I manually hit. It's a foot or so away from the BD player, which I have to get up to load/unload manually anyway, so no biggie.

Now in my 2 channel system, I use a Juice Goose, which is a power-on sequencer. It's a neat piece if one's breakers are tripping when too many amps power on at once.
I have ten amps and six 20 amp circuits. I also have a power sequencer. Since I don't want all the amps powering on at once, I built some outlets that were relay activated. I used 120 volt control relays. That way I plug the control side into the sequencer. So rather than trying to run several amps off of one 20 amp sequencer, I just use the sequencer to turn on the relays. The sequencer is triggered by a 12 volt trigger on the prepro.
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post #60 of 66 Old 06-12-2018, 01:07 AM
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Well if anyone is interested I was able to go back to normal!!!!! After reading some info about REW .. it seemed like somehow Rew set up a limiter on how many dbs the mic could hear. So it wasnt recognizing anything above 92db. I reset REW to default and was able to run my test again. This time with SPL of over 100db and still had over 10db of headroom. Thank you to the ones who took the time to inform me and helping me with this. Please remember.. we are here to help each other.... some folks around here sometimes forget that!!!
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