Javs' Modular Tower WMTW - 15FH520 / Beyma 12P80ND-V2 / TPL-150H - Page 6 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #151 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 03:18 PM
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I hear a constant hiss even when my system is turned off. Dang tinnitus! It also goes away when I'm listening to audio content

Depending on the frequencies involved with the miniDSP hiss, it might not be an issue to concern myself with.

Excellent looking build Javs. Looking forward to your listening impressions as you get it dialed in.
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post #152 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Berry DCX still a silent option isnt it?

While I would love to opt for a nice Venue 360 its not happening for me but I do believe it is a great silent option also.
Not in my experience, I have a 24/96 on my LCR and it added a bit hiss even after removing the input gain resistor on the 3rd channel. I dropped the level 10dB on the amps and boosted output from the AVR to compensate but the hiss is still noticeable at the LP when quiet and that's with 93dB passive speakers. It's not as bad as the miniDSP 2x4's I've tested but it's definitely not silent.
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post #153 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 03:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
That sounds like an Amp/Audyssey issue with noise on the pre out channels. I have never heard that kind of noise from the VBSS subs I have (Dayton drivers). I should note on the VBSS Subs, I have output gains on the marantz pegged all the way -12 as low as it can go, then use the inuke to set the gains. Some amps are known to clip output signals very easily, the Marantz needs to be super dialled back on the sub outs.
Well, I'm sure its got plenty to do with Yamaha amp...literarly everything I own hisses on them with gain on max... Kef LS50, Revel M106 (a lot), Revel Salon 2's (the least of three), but its still a bit weird. Too bad I can't feed Yamaha with coax to see if shielding might be an issue. Tnx anyway.

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post #154 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 04:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Well, I'm sure its got plenty to do with Yamaha amp...literarly everything I own hisses on them with gain on max... Kef LS50, Revel M106 (a lot), Revel Salon 2's (the least of three), but its still a bit weird. Too bad I can't feed Yamaha with coax to see if shielding might be an issue. Tnx anyway.
Is your stuff also hissing with the amps on mute? Thats the strange one. All my MiniDSP stuff is doing that.

The last time this happened it was a ground loop from my PC, but that's not possible with this noise, its not ground loop noise, I am very familiar with that. Its simply just bad board design IMO...

Anyone know of a similarly featured DSP that will do the job similar to what 2x MiniDSP 2x4HD's will do?

I need 96khz processing at minimum, and 10 banks of EQ on the input and output channels. those two things are the reasons I went with MiniDSP.

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post #155 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Is your stuff also hissing with the amps on mute? Thats the strange one. All my MiniDSP stuff is doing that.

The last time this happened it was a ground loop from my PC, but that's not possible with this noise, its not ground loop noise, I am very familiar with that. Its simply just bad board design IMO...

Anyone know of a similarly featured DSP that will do the job similar to what 2x MiniDSP 2x4HD's will do?

I need 96khz processing at minimum, and 10 banks of EQ on the input and output channels. those two things are the reasons I went with MiniDSP.
Well, like i said, if I turn down gain knob on Yamaha amp hiss gets lower and disappears (how much, depends on speaker). And its not ground loop like from PC, I can easily discern difference between two. I also have Parasound new classic amp (275Wpc into 8 Ohm) and that one didn't hiss with any of my speakers (except in bridge mode), still haven't tried it with new sub. And I don't have miniDSP yet, should get it tomorrow or next week. I will definitely be quite displeased if it causes too much noise because I am aiming for high sensitivity setup too.

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post #156 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 04:40 PM
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I was looking at the Venu360 today, I'm just not ready to swallow the price. I'd love another option priced between it and the DCX2496 with 3in/6out and similar features to the 2.
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post #157 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 05:33 PM
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I was looking at the Venu360 today, I'm just not ready to swallow the price. I'd love another option priced between it and the DCX2496 with 3in/6out and similar features to the 2.
MiniDSP 4x10 is probably the closest thing.
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post #158 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 06:42 PM
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MiniDSP 4x10 is probably the closest thing.
If I could make changes without a laptop, I'd try one, but I'm still worried about the hiss from miniDSP.
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post #159 of 179 Old 02-01-2018, 07:35 PM
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I have a dbx venu360 and it adds no appreciable hiss to my JBL 2453h-sl compression drivers on a 2384 horns over the noise floor of my crown xls1500 amp. I'd need a quieter amp to do further comparisons. This is direct to the driver with only a protective cap and auto transformer in line providing 12db attenuation. By the way, beautiful speakers Javs, I've been following this thread for some time... I bet they sound awesome.

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post #160 of 179 Old 02-02-2018, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Anyone know of a similarly featured DSP that will do the job similar to what 2x MiniDSP 2x4HD's will do?
I'm considering this option: XCA48 DIGITAL SPEAKER PROCESSOR

Specs are better than the miniDSP, although i don't know how will it affect hiss:
  • DAC Chip: Texas Instruments PCM1798
  • ADC Chip: Asahi Kasei AK5388
  • DSP Chip: Texas Instruments TM320C6726
  • Op Amps: Texas Instruments MC33078, ST Microelectronics MC33079

The controller software seems to be powerful, what we don't know is how well its implemented.
It can have the best hardware in the world, but in this case, the software implementation is critic.

There are a few threads in forum.speakerplans.com
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post #161 of 179 Old 02-03-2018, 04:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Getting these things dialled in now...

I had some issues in the last few days with imaging... Obviously these are VERY large, and I sit very close to them, so with the front subs where they were, I was limited in the toe-in I was able to achieve, and I was never quite happy with the imaging of the towers while listening to music... I also did calibrate it, but still wasnt happy, I felt like things were being pushed and pulled in too many directions to account for the imaging issues. I also tried calibrating only to around 500hz to see if that helped, maybe a little, but again, imaging was the issue.

Well, I pulled out the front subs for now, the rear ones are oddly seeming to be more powerful now, the couch seems to vibrate more... interesting. Anyway, now I am able to toe-in the towers more to image better across the middle seat. Now it sounds a lot better. As for the front subs, I will need to build slightly smaller enclosures for them to reinsert them in the system, I completely maxed out any possible width the way things were, so the new enclosures will need to be about 2-3 inches less wide... no probs. good opportunity to go truly nuts with bracing, and actually I really loved the look of the bass bins on these new towers, so I think I will design the front subs to look like that now, and the front stage will look a little more matched there.

Today I set out to calibrate hopefully once and for all the towers in their current position.

REW 6 point averaging was used, it made the process very easy, and I am pretty happy with the results now. That middle seat (lets face it, the only one I care about in my small room) now has a smooth frequency response.

Here is the pre-calibration averaging for both speakers across 6 positions in the middle seat. Now that the imaging is fixed (roughly 20 degrees toe in) this is actually not a bad average considering the only EQ on these is based on outdoor driver measurements!



Here is the Calibrated Averages, measured in 6 positions again after Eq to the summed averages above. Really good!



Here is the center channel, since thats being fed through one of my DSP Channels now too, may as well throw this in there. this speaker is on the floor, which is far from optimal, but it is what it is in my room.

Pre Cal 6pt Average



Calibrated 6pt Average



The towers have a tweeter roll off at 18khz which I have done myself, I noticed they don't like to really play above there, they naturally want to roll off, so in the X-Over settings for the DSP I simply created a 48db/Octave filter to roll off at 18k. You will clearly see that on one of the tower measurements above, I did the other tower after the measurements. I also added a 25hz roll off also 48db to save the driver from any over excursions since I am going to run these full range in my AVR.

I have heard the potential of these towers, there were a few troublesome tracks with my previous towers that seemed to have resonances which these new towers don't exhibit, so it seems I did succeed in increasing the rigidity of these.

Its actually been a pretty hard last few days trying to get these to sound good, imaging turned out to be the major issue, nobody would realistically use these in a room this small, so it wouldnt normally be an issue

Hopefully these things start sounding better today, I am going to kick back and listen to a bunch of music now.

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post #162 of 179 Old 02-04-2018, 04:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Little room update, as above, pulled out the subs from up front, and fixed the toe-in on the towers.

I REALLY like the look of the front stage now, its far less crowded, makes the towers look a lot more impressive since they have room to breathe, and also seems to have improved the bass slightly with some boundary gain for the lower bass bins.

My wife, bless her, then had the fine idea of being able to put the subs flaking our staircase about 3m to the right of the couch, and I am happy to say it works great! Far better than having to totally remove them, I do have a dip at 100hz now, a large one, but I am crossing the subs pretty low, and I was able to get a totally flat response from 11hz to 90hz, so I will take that for now and smile. I have set the subwoofer LFE setting to LFE+Main and told the mains to send 60hz and below to the subs, but this is not a crossover, its actually in addition to the mains being full range, so I got a really nice little rising house curve there when I watch films with the L/R bass content and also a great response for films.

Here is what the room looks like now. Also, oddly it seems like the couch is getting a bit more tactile now, not sure if its the longer throw of the subs being able to propagate a bit more with the distance (Yes I do believe that's a thing), but whatever, Ill take it!









And the subwoofer EQ... see the massive dip now, that was not there when they were up front, but I will deal with that. The mains when crossover completely fill that void and the response it totally flat down to ~12hz, so I will just have some LFE content missing in that section .... oh well, I didn't hear much missing when I viewed some demo material though, so I guess its ok.


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post #163 of 179 Old 02-05-2018, 09:34 AM
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@Javs , are you running everything full active?

Could you please answer a few questions ?

- did you perform outside driver measures?
- how did you select the XO between the TPL-150H and the 12p80nd? would you mind sharing the XO values?
- did you apply any delay between drivers?
- on the TPL-150, do you have an lpad? if so, what is the capacitor value?
- how would you rank the sound quality from the active version vs the passive version?

Thank you!
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post #164 of 179 Old 02-05-2018, 01:31 PM - Thread Starter
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@Javs , are you running everything full active?

Could you please answer a few questions ?

- did you perform outside driver measures?
- how did you select the XO between the TPL-150H and the 12p80nd? would you mind sharing the XO values?
- did you apply any delay between drivers?
- on the TPL-150, do you have an lpad? if so, what is the capacitor value?
- how would you rank the sound quality from the active version vs the passive version?

Thank you!
For the tower yes, its fully active.

Yes outside measurements, which I then made PEQ's for each driver to correct baffle step, since it was a very large baffle step with these, you can see that if you go back a page or two I posted all the outdoors measurements, look at ~300hz for where it happens, and then once in the room I made separate PEQ for the in-room calibration which went on another MiniDSP bank.

The crossover is 1200hz. I have these TPL's in two other speakers, the mid and tpl are already in my previous towers at 1800hz, and I didn't like the mid crossing that high after a while, so 1200hz is where I wanted it now. the mid crosses at 200hz from the LF woofers. I also did play around with 350hz/1600hz and even 1800hz again while I was messing around with the sound.

Yes there is a very small amount of delay between the drivers, but not much was needed since the TPL is actually very deep. But in any case, what I did was sit in the MPL, use a laser measuring device to measure the two LF Woofers at thier deepest point, then I worked out the mean distance of those two measurements, then measured the mid and tpl, and then subtracted the measurements from the LF Measurements, I cam up with readings of 3-4cm or so for the mid and TPL, then worked out what that would be in terms of ms delay and added that to the DSP delays, this did improve the impulse so I guess my method seemed to work pretty well.

Nah no cap on the TPL.

The sound quality of being active vs passive is up in the air IMO with these, the things I am hearing are things like soundstage, crossover points, midbass from the LF woofers, and the box being far stiffer. If I had a passive crossover that was as flat as this active one, I wouldnt hesitate to use it, however adding delays etc is quite good so, I am happy with this, but I am not going to say its a night and day difference from what a good passive crossover would be able to do. My old towers were VERY good, and it took me some days with these new ones to get them to sound as good to my ears, it turned out the problem was imaging though.
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post #165 of 179 Old 02-05-2018, 02:29 PM
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Thank you for the extensive response.

If you decide to keep the miniDSP, it might be worth to get the IR remote, as it would enable you to have 4 different pre-sets and change it on the fly.
And as its so cheap, i think its worth it
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post #166 of 179 Old 02-05-2018, 06:24 PM
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Those big modular towers are looking good, @Javs !
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post #167 of 179 Old 02-06-2018, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by neo_2009 View Post
Thank you for the extensive response.

If you decide to keep the miniDSP, it might be worth to get the IR remote, as it would enable you to have 4 different pre-sets and change it on the fly.
And as its so cheap, i think its worth it
Side note, the MiniDSP will work with almost any Sony / Phillips remote.

I recently picked up a Sony x800 blu ray player, and the "tv vol" buttons that are on it worked to turn the MiniDSP up and down without even having to try and program it.

Edit: BE CAREFUL! with the remote function however, the knob on the front of the MiniDSP works very slowly compared to the remote. Where you would usually turn the knob 3 or 4 full turns to bring it up and down, pressing remote buttons, you'll get that level change in a fraction of a second, so don't lean on the button until you're used to it.
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post #168 of 179 Old 02-17-2018, 03:10 PM
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@Javs , how are you finding the new speakers now that you have them for several days ?
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post #169 of 179 Old 02-17-2018, 03:25 PM - Thread Starter
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@Javs , how are you finding the new speakers now that you have them for several days ?
Amazing and clean... They are running full range, but with a 48db highpass at 25hz to protect the drivers, so the bass is better overall I find, the subs have had a lot less to do which is interesting to hear, the LFE is still there in spades with films, it all sounds a bit more effortless now, less cluttered.

I can now definitely tell the midrange and tweeter modules sound better than my last speakers, there are far less resonances in content I know very well. The tweeter is rolling off via the minidsp at 6db/oct at 15khz, which actually gives it a very gradual rolloff from about 5khz and then its -3db at 16khz which I think it needed. With the tweeters totally flat, the sound was a bit too forward for me especially at reference levels and I found myself grabbing for the remote too much with family in the room, now its perfect and the volume is never touched, I can easily sit through reference level content without my ears screaming at me.



As for the LFE boxes, still great, I may open these up sometime soon though and see if I can just stick a couple more dowels in there for extra bracing. See what I can do further. Still feel like the knuckle wrap test could be better, particularly on the rear of the box, while that actually has the most bracing its clear that 90% of the box resonances if any, are coming from there, this is only heard with my ear on the cabinet, the side walls are almost dead silent when I put my ear up to it.

As for the DSP hiss, I have gotten used to it, I actually don't hear it unless I sit there in silence listening for it. With content I can say its never ever been there to my ears, so I am ok with it. The other features such as having unprecedented control over the crossover has been invaluable.

As a note, I also did try 300/1500 hz crossovers, even 1600 and 1800 hz too, but settled back where I was at 200/1200hz. I think it sounds perfect. If I went much higher with the LF woofers then IMO there was too much mid range coming out of them and possibly distorting that, so the mid range as it is now is working very well. the tweeter also seems to be behaving very nicely, not stressing at all. The only other thing I could test is a steeper crossover from mid to tweeter. could be good, perhaps 36 or 48db. I dont want to go too much.
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Excellent, i can only imagine how great they must sound
Congratulations for your amazing work on these !!!

Have you seen this paper? It presents an interesting approach to an active design: Grimm Audio’s LS1 Speaker design
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post #171 of 179 Old 02-17-2018, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Excellent, i can only imagine how great they must sound
Congratulations for your amazing work on these !!!

Have you seen this paper? It presents an interesting approach to an active design: Grimm Audio’s LS1 Speaker design
I have not, thanks! Reading now.

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post #172 of 179 Old 02-17-2018, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Very interesting point 1.4 talks about baffle step being optimal around 300hz since that's the beginning of the vocal range and where the ear stops hearing directed sound, coincidentally, that's right where my baffle step is, you can see it here...

"Psychoacoustics tells us that below about 300Hz the ear will no longer clearly discern direct sound, first reflections or reverberant sound. Presumably the evolutionary background of this is that the vocal range starts here."

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post #173 of 179 Old 02-17-2018, 05:04 PM
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Very interesting point 1.4 talks about baffle step being optimal around 300hz since that's the beginning of the vocal range and where the ear stops hearing directed sound, coincidentally, that's right where my baffle step is, you can see it here...

"Psychoacoustics tells us that below about 300Hz the ear will no longer clearly discern direct sound, first reflections or reverberant sound. Presumably the evolutionary background of this is that the vocal range starts here."

Tell that to Leonard Cohen. Or to my fundamental starting at 130ish Hz (tho not nearly as fancy as Leonards).

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post #174 of 179 Old 02-17-2018, 05:28 PM
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Mind blowing design ,,,,
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post #175 of 179 Old 02-17-2018, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by donktard View Post
Tell that to Leonard Cohen. Or to my fundamental starting at 130ish Hz (tho not nearly as fancy as Leonards).
True ha I did think about that.

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post #176 of 179 Old 02-23-2018, 04:56 PM
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@Javs , what are you using to decouple the modules?
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post #177 of 179 Old 02-23-2018, 05:02 PM - Thread Starter
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@Javs , what are you using to decouple the modules?
Just little pads of foam... Eggcrate actually. Compresses nicely
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post #178 of 179 Old 03-24-2018, 11:10 AM
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@Javs

When will you going for AT larger screen? Which AT screen are you going to use? From OZTS as well?
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post #179 of 179 Old 03-24-2018, 01:48 PM - Thread Starter
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@Javs

When will you going for AT larger screen? Which AT screen are you going to use? From OZTS as well?
When I buy a house = years.

And probably not. Will want the highest gain at screen I can find.

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