Is higher group delay audible in music? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Is higher group delay audible in music?

I saw a post in another forum discussing how the group delay in ported subwoofers is higher than in sealed from tune to tune*2. At 2 times tune the sub behaves like a sealed sub. Is this true?
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post #2 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I saw a post in another forum discussing how the group delay in ported subwoofers is higher than in sealed from tune to tune*2. At 2 times tune the sub behaves like a sealed sub. Is this true?

Yes it's true. You can compare it in a WinISD model. I may be wrong, but from what I've read, it's not been proven audible in subs. EDIT: Interesting read here: https://trueaudio.com/post_010.htm

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post #3 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 04:55 PM
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Yes but I think this depends on the listener. Some people have perfect pitch while others are tone deaf, some can pick out very minute details in a mix while others just don't have that capability.
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post #4 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 05:19 PM
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...and some people sell sealed subwoofers.

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post #5 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
...and some people sell sealed subwoofers.
Noooo. I'm not trying to start a sealed vs ported war!!!
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post #6 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
Noooo. I'm not trying to start a sealed vs ported war!!!


Me neither. I've never read anything definitive on it. Opinions go both ways, but to my knowledge, no one has actually objectively tested below 400 Hz. Nothing against Shreds, but he may have, or be seen to have, a conflict of interest in this matter. Whenever I hear the magic ears myth, I get suspicious. Even someone who is tone deaf can hear a delay between the pop and then boom of a snare drum (if it's actually an audible delay).

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post #7 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 07:16 PM
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This is actually something I have wondered myself when I noticed it while modeling in WinISD. In the couple of GTG sub tests I read about here no one seemed able to pick out different subs blind.
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post #8 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
This is actually something I have wondered myself when I noticed it while modeling in WinISD. In the couple of GTG sub tests I read about here no one seemed able to pick out different subs blind.
The blind testing is interesting. Good angle.
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post #9 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 08:25 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Yes but I think this depends on the listener. Some people have perfect pitch while others are tone deaf, some can pick out very minute details in a mix while others just don't have that capability.
No one can pick out minute details below roughly 80Hz, just as they can't directionally locate. Pitch isn't even discernible below roughly 40Hz, where group delay gets high.
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post #10 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
. Pitch isn't even discernible below roughly 40Hz, where group delay gets high.
???
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post #11 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
No one can pick out minute details below roughly 80Hz, just as they can't directionally locate. Pitch isn't even discernible below roughly 40Hz, where group delay gets high.
Argumentum ad hominem.

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post #12 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 10:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
Argumentum ad hominem.
In the few blind subwoofer GTG's that have happened no one was able to tell the difference between subs. I don't believe people were able to tell the difference between the sealed dual-opposed submersive to the JTR Cap 2400.
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post #13 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
In the few blind subwoofer GTG's that have happened no one was able to tell the difference between subs. I don't believe people were able to tell the difference between the sealed dual-opposed submersive to the JTR Cap 2400.
Depending on stimulus and drive level, it is possible that no one was able to tell the difference.

It is absurd to make an argument that humans can not hear pitch below 40 hz.

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post #14 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
Depending on stimulus and drive level, it is possible that no one was able to tell the difference.

It is absurd to make an argument that humans can not hear pitch below 40 hz.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to argue for or against for what humans can hear.

But what I do know is when I was researching the seaton submersive I crawled through essentially every mention of it in the forum and there was a few blind tests, i'll try to dig them up and edit this post to add in the links.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...ut-2012-a.html

Last edited by Magibeg; 06-03-2017 at 10:24 PM. Reason: adding links
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post #15 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
In the few blind subwoofer GTG's that have happened no one was able to tell the difference between subs. I don't believe people were able to tell the difference between the sealed dual-opposed submersive to the JTR Cap 2400.
I don't believe half of what I read. I can design a two tone stimulus that will differentiate between a ported subwoofer and a sealed subwoofer without trouble.

A moving diaphragm alters the pitch of a high frequency sound, modulating it up or down in frequency. Know that a ported subwoofer has excursion minima at tuning.


If for example, the native tuning frequency was 15 hz of a ported cabinet, a simple two tone stimulus of 15 hz and 150 hz mixed in equal amplitudes played on both systems will result in a much lower magnitude of FMD ( frequency modulation distortion ) on the ported system than the sealed system.

A diaphragm moving to a 15 hz signal will modulate the 150 hz tone, creating additional side bands of 150 hz, + / - 15hz, additional frequencies of 135 hz and 165 hz not present in the original signal, not to mention all of the second and third harmonics generated from suspension and motor non-linearities, of a driver undergoing large excursions.

See: Kellog, 1931, and later P.W. Klipsch

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post #16 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
I don't believe half of what I read. I can design a two tone stimulus that will differentiate between a ported subwoofer and a sealed subwoofer without trouble.

A moving diaphragm alters the pitch of a high frequency sound, modulating it up or down in frequency. Know that a ported subwoofer has excursion minima at tuning.


If for example, the native tuning frequency was 15 hz of a ported cabinet, a simple two tone stimulus of 15 hz and 150 hz mixed in equal amplitudes played on both systems will result in a much lower magnitude of FMD ( frequency modulation distortion ) on the ported system than the sealed system.

A diaphragm moving to a 15 hz signal will modulate the 150 hz tone, creating additional side bands of 150 hz, + / - 15hz, additional frequencies of 135 hz and 165 hz not present in the original signal, not to mention all of the second and third harmonics generated from suspension and motor non-linearities, of a driver undergoing large excursions.

See: Kellog, 1931, and later P.W. Klipsch
So you're saying then that it would be a situation where if you ran this test that there would be an audible difference between ported vs sealed. And in the case you listed the ported design would have lower distortion? (due to the lower excursion around port tune)
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post #17 of 52 Old 06-03-2017, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magibeg View Post
So you're saying then that it would be a situation where if you ran this test that there would be an audible difference between ported vs sealed. And in the case you listed the ported design would have lower distortion? (due to the lower excursion around port tune)
Yes, there would be. Note that THD ( Total HARMONIC Distortion ) which is oft reported, is relatively benign, especially 2nd order HD. A woofer or subwoofer undergoing large excursions with a multi-tone stimulus will create FMD or 'doppler' distortion.

This is part of the reason moving to large diameter drivers [ larger radiation area ] that move less for the equivalent sound pressure makes for much 'cleaner' sound.
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post #18 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 07:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
No one can pick out minute details below roughly 80Hz, just as they can't directionally locate. Pitch isn't even discernible below roughly 40Hz, where group delay gets high.
I know some bass players who would strongly disagree, lol.
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post #19 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 07:37 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I know some bass players who would strongly disagree, lol.
Only the ones who aren't aware that what they're hearing that defines pitch and tone and so forth is the harmonics.
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Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Nothing against Shreds, but he may have, or be seen to have, a conflict of interest in this matter. Whenever I hear the magic ears myth, I get suspicious. Even someone who is tone deaf can hear a delay between the pop and then boom of a snare drum (if it's actually an audible delay).
What, so I don't get a say?

The problem with the GTG tests is you show up to a theater room you're not used to listening in, hear subs that you're not used to listening to and maybe get 3 minutes to hear each one in the sweet spot with source material that you may not be used to hearing on multiple systems for reference. This is much different to going through your catalog of music and movies in your listening space for a few weeks and then making the switch. I've done this before with the same driver in the same box, blocking the port, stuffing the cab, and after level and response matching, I noticed a difference in the feel of the bass in music. It wasn't because of THD because ample headroom was maintained.

No one likes to hear the golden ear stuff but you look at some of the guys like Bob Katz, or some of the mix engineers who did soundtracks like Oz, the Great and Powerful, and it's apparent that there are guys who stand out to the point of being very successful because they are more tuned into what they hear. I've been around guys behind a mixing board that made me feel like I was deaf. It is what it is.
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post #21 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
Only the ones who aren't aware that what they're hearing that defines pitch and tone and so forth is the harmonics.
Harmonics dictate tone, not pitch. You're really telling me that the only way that a bass player knows that his low B on his 5-string (~31Hz) is out of tune is because of the harmonics of the instrument? Or that when listening to electronic music that uses sine tone fundamentals for the bass, they can just hit any note below 40Hz and it will go with the song and sound good? Nope.
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post #22 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
Argumentum ad hominem.
Against.. humanity?

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post #23 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 10:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I saw a post in another forum discussing how the group delay in ported subwoofers is higher than in sealed from tune to tune*2. At 2 times tune the sub behaves like a sealed sub. Is this true?
True or not what is it you are trying to correct or accomplish with your audio setup?

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post #24 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 10:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm content with my current setup. I was actually researching CLD and ran into a thread about group delay and the subject peaked my interest. I'm trying to learn about it.
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post #25 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 10:27 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
You're really telling me that the only way that a bass player knows that his low B on his 5-string (~31Hz) is out of tune is because of the harmonics of the instrument?.
Yes. If all he could hear was that 31Hz it would be a vague rumble. Very few bass players have access to the kind of gear that would allow them to hear a pure 31Hz tone with no harmonics. My line of work being what it is I am one of those very few. At 31Hz pitch is indistinguishable. I can begin to make it out around 40Hz, but without any harmonics not accurately until above 50Hz.
Bass players have no issues hearing if it's in tune, because with the gear that bass players use both the second and third harmonics are present at considerably higher levels than the 31Hz fundamental. It's only when you get up around 100Hz or so that the fundamental is louder than the harmonics.
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Overtones (sonic signature) are more complex than simple harmonics of a given fundamental frequency.
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post #27 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 11:40 AM
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Blauert, J. and Laws, P "Group Delay Distortions in Electroacoustical Systems"
Journal of the Acoustical Society of America
Volume 63, Number 5, pp. 1478-1483 (May 1978) Blauert and Laws report approximately the following thresholds for audibility:



Frequency Threshold of Audibility 8 kHz 2 msec 4 kHz 1.5 msec 2 kHz 1 msec 1 kHz 2 msec 500 Hz 3.2 msec
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post #28 of 52 Old 06-04-2017, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
Blauert, J. and Laws, P "Group Delay Distortions in Electroacoustical Systems"
Journal of the Acoustical Society of America
Volume 63, Number 5, pp. 1478-1483 (May 1978) Blauert and Laws report approximately the following thresholds for audibility:



Frequency Threshold of Audibility 8 kHz 2 msec 4 kHz 1.5 msec 2 kHz 1 msec 1 kHz 2 msec 500 Hz 3.2 msec
That's the point. Nothing has been objectively tested below 500 Hz. Also, I believe that testing was done with headphones. I suspect results would be different with reflections bouncing all over the room. (my link in the 2nd post quoted that same paper)

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post #29 of 52 Old 06-09-2017, 04:42 PM
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Of course group delay is audible if it's bad enough. The hard question to answer is *how much* group delay is audible? I won't even try to address that one here, but I will point out that crossovers, EQ, and room acoustics also alter group delay that can be as or more substantial than the group delay from the cabinet design. So it's the group delay of the final response that you should be most concerned with.

[opinion] I believe even quite small amounts of group delay can be audible, but most of the time, the in-room response is too messed up in other ways for it to be perceived. And of course, non-linear response characteristics (like inductance-related effects) can also have big impact on the transient response of a sub system. [/opinion]
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post #30 of 52 Old 06-09-2017, 05:45 PM
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The only time i've been able to tell between box types is when you hear port noise (for ported subs) or driver noise (for sealed subs). Which only happens at high output.

As for pitch, i've always been able to discern it all the way to 7hz (in a good system.) That said, below 20hz it gets increasingly difficult.

In someone else's room, with someone else's speakers, and someone else's music... I'd be struggling to discern much of anything (because I'd have no stable frame of reference with which to judge it by). Just loud or not, distorted or not, echoy or not, and "maybe" a few other things...
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