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post #121 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Unfortunatly I have no sealed sub or any sub capable of any measurable output at 10hz right now and the final destination of this sub is a room that is yet to be constructed.......


Final end game will be 4 of these subs.....just starting with one for now, because building 4 Hindenburgs is not the end goal.


Build one, see what happens, proceed forward.........


But I do want to learn and understand, not just build a copy of something.



I am trying to get max db at 10hz, while keeping all of the above mentioned things in line....group delay,phase,apparent power,impeadance,.......I understand what they are, but unsure of how it affects the entire design or what is a good or bad measurement or what the overall system effect will be.


Not matter what parameters I set in winisd....108db at 10hz is about as far as this driver will go, but slight design changes can change the group delay,apparent power VA,resistance etc etc.

Slight variations skew those numbers, without effecting max output too much, so I would like to skew them towards the ideal settings as much as possible.......just figuring out what is ideal on phase,apparent VA load, group delay etc is not easy......lots of articles explaining them, not much info on what is ideal or how the changes effect the performance.

It would easy if I was not left brained and just copied a existing design and had no intent on understanding it.....

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post #122 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 01:52 PM
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Going all in,deep end of the pool....

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Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
C-mon fellas, don't give up on me now.........I had a episode, but I am back on track now....







LLT......max db`s at 10hz is my goal.





I have about 100 hours in now in WINisd and a better understanding of how things work, not all of it, but some of it.





It looks like no matter how I slice it, 108db at 10hz is about all I can get out of this driver staying at 600watts in a LLT.





But between 106-108db a lot can be changed in the group delay,impedance,phase....apparent VA load etc.





I am reading as much as I can and trying to understand as much as possible.





I do not want to build the hindenberg here......





Slap me back on track.......I can take it........constructive criticism is how we learn, even if it is just calling me dumbazz.....


So are you open to a round port or a slot port which one did you want to do again. A slot port would be cheaper since it's just mdf.
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post #123 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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So are you open to a round port or a slot port which one did you want to do again.
I have a bunch of 8 inch PVC.......seems the easiest route to me.

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post #124 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 02:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I am trying to get max db at 10hz,


Not matter what parameters I set in winisd....108db at 10hz is about as far as this driver will go, but slight design changes can change the group delay,apparent power VA,resistance etc etc.
That is how it works with any driver in a ported enclosure. You hit the limits of the driver and nothing is going to increase output other than going with horn loaded designs. So stop beating your head against the wall Either add more subs or go horn loaded. No amount of time trying magical combinations in WINISD will give you more output.

Also if your room as is small I had seen you post in the past at 1800sq ft ported might not be the best option. Guys here will small rooms would know or could give their input.
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post #125 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 02:27 PM
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That is how it works with any driver in a ported enclosure. You hit the limits of the driver and nothing is going to increase output other than going with horn loaded designs. So stop beating your head against the wall Either add more subs or go horn loaded. No amount of time trying magical combinations in WINISD will give you more output.

Also if your room as is small I had seen you post in the past at 1800sq ft ported might not be the best option. Guys here will small rooms would know or could give their input.
This.

@unretarded you're obsessing over the irrelevant.

I gave you a finished solution to your problem. It was a link to my LLT system. All you gotta do is copy it, drop in the HT18 and enjoy "max SPL to 10hz" which is what I designed it to do with such a driver.
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post #126 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 02:46 PM - Thread Starter
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That is how it works with any driver in a ported enclosure. You hit the limits of the driver and nothing is going to increase output other than going with horn loaded designs. So stop beating your head against the wall Either add more subs or go horn loaded. No amount of time trying magical combinations in WINISD will give you more output.


Thats where I am at now, about 100 hours trying magical combinations .



I understand now about driver limits, it looks like no matter what 108db is about it using the SPL chart .


But playing around that long , I was able to observe how all the details such as group delay,apparent amp power,resistance etc can vary and would like to understad that better.

I would also like like some cushion room so one small accident with the volume does not result in a blown driver.


For example........setting the max power at 670 watts, since that is the max that a inuke 1000dsp is able to pull off bridged 4ohm mono as measured on a amp dyno. When I look at the apparent amp load, it shows a max load of 380 VA right above tune. I am not sure how that relates together with watts.

Or what kind of safety cushion that provides.....it looks like the max load the driver will draw is 380 VA, which looks to be DC, which is the same as watts in DC. Looks like 380 VA DC is the same as 380 watts.

I also see the max power graph in watts at X HZ..........so crossing those 2 charts on top of each other, looks like it all lines up and excursion stays in check.


There are tons of articles on principals, but not too many on application.
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post #127 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post


Thats where I am at now, about 100 hours trying magical combinations .



I understand now about driver limits, it looks like no matter what 108db is about it using the SPL chart .


But playing around that long , I was able to observe how all the details such as group delay,apparent amp power,resistance etc can vary and would like to understad that better.

I would also like like some cushion room so one small accident with the volume does not result in a blown driver.


For example........setting the max power at 670 watts, since that is the max that a inuke 1000dsp is able to pull off bridged 4ohm mono as measured on a amp dyno. When I look at the apparent amp load, it shows a max load of 380 VA right above tune. I am not sure how that relates together with watts.

Or what kind of safety cushion that provides.....it looks like the max load the driver will draw is 380 VA, which looks to be DC, which is the same as watts in DC. Looks like 380 VA DC is the same as 380 watts.

I also see the max power graph in watts at X HZ..........so crossing those 2 charts on top of each other, looks like it all lines up and excursion stays in check.


There are tons of articles on principals, but not too many on application.
I agree playing with a modeling program like WINISD helped me understand how increasing enclosure size, port size etc all affects everything else and driver Xmax, voltage. Someone can tell me what happens but when I can see it that is when it clicks and it is an eureka moment
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post #128 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 03:20 PM
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I agree playing with a modeling program like WINISD helped me understand how increasing enclosure size, port size etc all affects everything else and driver Xmax, voltage. Someone can tell me what happens but when I can see it that is when it clicks and it is an eureka moment
Must have missed the part where OP was just trying to learn the basics of modelling.

I had to figure it all out on my own too. Just constantly rendering all sorts of alignments. That how while designing you learn how one thing can affect several things and such.
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post #129 of 222 Old 07-13-2017, 07:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Must have missed the part where OP was just trying to learn the basics of modelling.

I had to figure it all out on my own too. Just constantly rendering all sorts of alignments. That how while designing you learn how one thing can affect several things and such.


We be building a cabinet here...a big UN,a few actually, just want to understand as much as possible.


I think I have the basic concepts down, since the information has run dry......google search after google search turns up little now.


Such as how apparent amp load VA effects the design....what does it do, why does it do it, what is desirable, where do you want it to peak and why...........how that translates into driver coil temp or how much heat the amp will put out, long term output durability. Which sounds better and does it matter where and when it occurs.


Or phase signature....what does the ideal phase signature look like, can we achieve it, does it matter and in what situations does it not matter .


Impeadance/ resistance ohms.........what is the ideal shape, can we skew that shape.....how does that translate into amp load, can we change it, should we change it and how does it effect performance if we skew it one way or the other on the chart.


Group delay...less sounds tighter, more sounds sloppier........20ms at 20hz is tossed out as a number to stay at or below.

Best I can do is approx. 11-12 ms at 20hz for group delay....is that horrible, is that standard.......that can be skewed up or down a little while keeping the same basic cabinet output....which is more desirable and at what point does the secondary consideration become more important than skewing a couple ms off the group delay.


I remember going down this road with engine design/building......

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post #130 of 222 Old 07-14-2017, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post


We be building a cabinet here...a big UN,a few actually, just want to understand as much as possible.


I think I have the basic concepts down, since the information has run dry......google search after google search turns up little now.


Such as how apparent amp load VA effects the design....what does it do, why does it do it, what is desirable, where do you want it to peak and why...........how that translates into driver coil temp or how much heat the amp will put out, long term output durability. Which sounds better and does it matter where and when it occurs.


Or phase signature....what does the ideal phase signature look like, can we achieve it, does it matter and in what situations does it not matter .


Impeadance/ resistance ohms.........what is the ideal shape, can we skew that shape.....how does that translate into amp load, can we change it, should we change it and how does it effect performance if we skew it one way or the other on the chart.


Group delay...less sounds tighter, more sounds sloppier........20ms at 20hz is tossed out as a number to stay at or below.

Best I can do is approx. 11-12 ms at 20hz for group delay....is that horrible, is that standard.......that can be skewed up or down a little while keeping the same basic cabinet output....which is more desirable and at what point does the secondary consideration become more important than skewing a couple ms off the group delay.


I remember going down this road with engine design/building......
Not sure the inuke1000 can put out enough power to max your design (especially with any e.q.) and the power drops under 20hz and more as you go lower.

I have my dads si18 v1 at 2 ohm on one channel of an inuke3000dsp and it could use more.

The 1000 will be good to start, but I would want more power myself in an amp that can deliver power low also.

Has Notty test the inuke1000?
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post #131 of 222 Old 07-15-2017, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post


We be building a cabinet here...a big UN,a few actually, just want to understand as much as possible.


I think I have the basic concepts down, since the information has run dry......google search after google search turns up little now.


Such as how apparent amp load VA effects the design....what does it do, why does it do it, what is desirable, where do you want it to peak and why...........how that translates into driver coil temp or how much heat the amp will put out, long term output durability. Which sounds better and does it matter where and when it occurs.


Or phase signature....what does the ideal phase signature look like, can we achieve it, does it matter and in what situations does it not matter .


Impeadance/ resistance ohms.........what is the ideal shape, can we skew that shape.....how does that translate into amp load, can we change it, should we change it and how does it effect performance if we skew it one way or the other on the chart.


Group delay...less sounds tighter, more sounds sloppier........20ms at 20hz is tossed out as a number to stay at or below.

Best I can do is approx. 11-12 ms at 20hz for group delay....is that horrible, is that standard.......that can be skewed up or down a little while keeping the same basic cabinet output....which is more desirable and at what point does the secondary consideration become more important than skewing a couple ms off the group delay.


I remember going down this road with engine design/building......
Amplifier load is dependent on box size, tuning and woofer parameters. If you look closely at the graphs, the lowest power use is at high impedance. At an impedance peak, you may require high voltage from the amplifier, but the amount of amperage flowing through the coil is low. Total power is low, coil heating is low.

Ohm's law calculators here: http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/ohmslawcalculators.asp

For example, 40 volts into 4 ohms is 400 watts, but the same 40 volts into a 65 ohm impedance spike is 24.6153 watts.

Where do you want to put your impedance peaks? Depends on the content and intended usage of your subwoofer. For loud music / pro sound you might want to have a large peak ( or multiple peaks from a different design, say a tapped horn ) in the 60+ hz range where the 'meat' of the bass is.

Phase: in a vented box, around tuning, you will get a radical shift in phase, there is not much you can do to change it. You will get additional phase rotation from crossovers applied and any eq. Also, you will have additional phase rotation at the listening position due to reflections inside the room.

Tip for using WinISD: put your cursor in a box and use your up and down arrow keys to watch what happens in real time as you adjust a value.

Group delay is acceptable if below 1-1.5 cycles, as you go lower in frequency, higher GD is still OK, based on the longer period to complete a cycle. Filters ( eq, high pass, and low pass ) will also affect group delay, try it in simulation and you will see.

Read this post, you may just re-think about wanting maximum SPL at 10 hz:

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...&comment=16718

There is a lot of data on system measurements at DataBass, especially under other tabs where impedance is shown, the compression ( thermal and mechanical ) can be eye-opening.

We don't listen to single tones, rather complex signals with multiple bass frequencies simultaneously. What matters is keeping the excursion relatively low, this reduces many different types of motor and suspension distortions and non-linearities.

Two enclosures could produce the same SPL, but the one with larger radiation area ( cone area ) will sound cleaner, less frequency modulation distortion.

There is additional reading at the Klippel website on motor distortions.

As far as ports go, the larger the better, but they eat up precious enclosure volume. ( you must subtract the port volume from your finished internal volume to get your 'net' volume, as well as any bracing and the displacement of the driver [s] )

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #132 of 222 Old 07-15-2017, 09:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cellarnoise View Post
Not sure the inuke1000 can put out enough power to max your design (especially with any e.q.) and the power drops under 20hz and more as you go lower.

I have my dads si18 v1 at 2 ohm on one channel of an inuke3000dsp and it could use more.

The 1000 will be good to start, but I would want more power myself in an amp that can deliver power low also.

Has Notty test the inuke1000?
I agree I always suggest going with the Inuke 6000dsp for subs(if going Inukes). You can always turn it down(set limiter) but you can't turn too small of amplifier up more.

Edit I should say if it works for your impedance load, I know some situations you have to go with the 3000 vs the 6000.
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post #133 of 222 Old 07-15-2017, 01:14 PM - Thread Starter
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So, based on all that info, let me pose this question.....


SPL will be reduced with a 10hz tune, but with 4-18 inch drivers, at what point does that overcome the downside of a 10hz tune.



It makes perfect sense to me if a person was runing 1-18 inch driver, the loss of SPL with a 10hz tune would not be acceptable.


But with 4 LLT`s, does that start to negate the downside of a 10hz tune........?

Or are there other factors I am not seeing ?


I have 4, cheap 12`s right now that drop off at 25hz.........they give me more than enough SPL, but they lack,or better worder, non existant below 25hz output.


I know it was mentioned by LTD that it may cause a lack of midbass punch. Which is a concern and be beyond what I understand.


My hope for this project is room pressure and low hz, 25hz and below performance.

Right now I have more SPL and more midbass punch than I can use........gains are normally at approx 2 on the subs and the AVR`s LFE settings are usually at 0............so at this point I have a ton of output left or headroom. I do not want this project to end up just giving me more SPL and little else or I could just stick with what I have as I need no more SPL above 25hz.


I am sure there is more than SPL to be considered, but I do not know enough or have heard any systems to be educated on that performance aspect.

Perhaps I should construct the box in a manner that has the recomended 16hz tune and make it in a way I can do 10hz and compare the differences myself to see which I prefer. Since I have never heard anything with either tune before to have any clue what I prefer.

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post #134 of 222 Old 07-15-2017, 02:19 PM
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One thing you haven't answered is your room size. There is a guy right now that is comparing a JTR 1400 vs a Seaton Submersive(in JTR thread) and the sealed sub is killing the ported sub into the ULF. If you have a small room sealed may be better.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...9&d=1499992190

If you plan to have even 1 18" nearfield I don't think the other ones will add much for tactile feel. An NF 18 is pretty intense. Did you read @carp s JTR 4000ULF vs his sealed subs?

I just think you might be over looking some simpler/better options depending on your room size.
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post #135 of 222 Old 07-15-2017, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
So, based on all that info, let me pose this question.....


SPL will be reduced with a 10hz tune, but with 4-18 inch drivers, at what point does that overcome the downside of a 10hz tune.



It makes perfect sense to me if a person was runing 1-18 inch driver, the loss of SPL with a 10hz tune would not be acceptable.


But with 4 LLT`s, does that start to negate the downside of a 10hz tune........?

Or are there other factors I am not seeing ?


I have 4, cheap 12`s right now that drop off at 25hz.........they give me more than enough SPL, but they lack,or better worder, non existant below 25hz output.


I know it was mentioned by LTD that it may cause a lack of midbass punch. Which is a concern and be beyond what I understand.


My hope for this project is room pressure and low hz, 25hz and below performance.

Right now I have more SPL and more midbass punch than I can use........gains are normally at approx 2 on the subs and the AVR`s LFE settings are usually at 0............so at this point I have a ton of output left or headroom. I do not want this project to end up just giving me more SPL and little else or I could just stick with what I have as I need no more SPL above 25hz.


I am sure there is more than SPL to be considered, but I do not know enough or have heard any systems to be educated on that performance aspect.

Perhaps I should construct the box in a manner that has the recomended 16hz tune and make it in a way I can do 10hz and compare the differences myself to see which I prefer. Since I have never heard anything with either tune before to have any clue what I prefer.
You may have enough spl now with a 25 hz tune and (4) 12's. As you drop an octave ( 12.5 hz vs 25 hz ) keeping the same radiating area and the same SPL requirement you need 4 X the excursion. Drop even more to 10 hz, and it is even more, 6 fold the excursion compared to 25 hz.

Or, put it another way, you would need 24, 12" drivers, or approximately 12 18" drivers to equal the spl with the same cone excursion as you currently enjoy if you intend to shoot for 10 hz as a tuning point.

Quick sanity check here:

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

Note: this is for sealed boxes.

With a vented enclosure, at tuning, you will experience lower cone excursion with an excursion maxima at an octave and a half above the vent frequency. If tuning at 10 hz, you will have maximum cone excursion at 15 hz.

Before diving off a cliff and building some huge boxes, you might want to learn how to measure using RoomEQ wizard. Measure a sealed box subwoofer outside, then measure it in places you plan to use these gargantuan boxes you plan for 10hz performance to get a room gain profile.

Room construction details would be helpful, if you have a lossy construction, you might be chasing your tail, and you may not ever realize your desires.

Also, you must consider 1/4 wavelength boundary cancellations. The farther the driver is from boundaries ( large box ) you will lose out on the high end of the subwoofer response due to cancellation from the front wall, side walls or floor.
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Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #136 of 222 Old 07-15-2017, 04:04 PM
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For others reading, I just looked at his budget HT build, it is a small room.

"11 foot 4 inches by 12 foot 7 inches room size........7 foot 8 inch ceiling height....."

Unretarded, you may be best off with a few sealed subwoofers in that room. It appears to be on the main floor, is that correct, or is it in a bi-level where this is the basement?

If in the basement, you would likely be better off with some transducers on your seating, if on the main floor, a capable sub can give you a decent amount of tactile feel.( floor moving sensations )
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Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #137 of 222 Old 07-15-2017, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
For others reading, I just looked at his budget HT build, it is a small room.

"11 foot 4 inches by 12 foot 7 inches room size........7 foot 8 inch ceiling height....."

Unretarded, you may be best off with a few sealed subwoofers in that room. It appears to be on the main floor, is that correct, or is it in a bi-level where this is the basement?

If in the basement, you would likely be better off with some transducers on your seating, if on the main floor, a capable sub can give you a decent amount of tactile feel.( floor moving sensations )
Arse shakers work great!

If you have some headroom with the current subs, if you have e.q. you could push a low shelf at the low end and see if that helps. Pump up the low end volume!

The room is a good size for additional sealed subs to go for the lows. 2 and likely 4 18's with real power should then make you want more mid-bass
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Arse shakers work great!

If you have some headroom with the current subs, if you have e.q. you could push a low shelf at the low end and see if that helps. Pump up the low end volume!

The room is a good size for additional sealed subs to go for the lows. 2 and likely 4 18's with real power should then make you want more mid-bass
I meant to add that you could plug the ports the bic 12s you have now and run the inuke1000dsp power through the plugged ports to run an e.q. in a sealed format to see if you gain some under 25hz and if it provides enough dbs.

If it does then 1 or 2 sealed 18s would be all that is needed in the future.

Just the cost of some wiring and time. Being careful not to overpower the drivers.

Fun experiment in sealed with what you have without much work. Just removing some drivers.
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
For others reading, I just looked at his budget HT build, it is a small room.

"11 foot 4 inches by 12 foot 7 inches room size........7 foot 8 inch ceiling height....."

Unretarded, you may be best off with a few sealed subwoofers in that room. It appears to be on the main floor, is that correct, or is it in a bi-level where this is the basement?

If in the basement, you would likely be better off with some transducers on your seating, if on the main floor, a capable sub can give you a decent amount of tactile feel.( floor moving sensations )
I had seen that but I thought I had read he is planning a different room than that one. But I don't know how much bigger it is, I thought it was around 1800cf. I would think even if he is doing a room in the 2500cf range on a suspended floor 4 18" in there will have a lot of output and impact. Unless he does sound proofing he won't be able to turn it up full tilt if he has neighbors within 50-100' from his house.

Edit: found this "Its final destiation will be in a approx 11x18 dedicated room" https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post53812881 that is a small room. I don't how much of an advantage huge ported subs will give you if anything over sealed. In actual in room use, not WINISD graphs.

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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
For others reading, I just looked at his budget HT build, it is a small room.

"11 foot 4 inches by 12 foot 7 inches room size........7 foot 8 inch ceiling height....."

Unretarded, you may be best off with a few sealed subwoofers in that room. It appears to be on the main floor, is that correct, or is it in a bi-level where this is the basement?

If in the basement, you would likely be better off with some transducers on your seating, if on the main floor, a capable sub can give you a decent amount of tactile feel.( floor moving sensations )
Current room is concrete floor,most houses out here have that,...yes I have Clark silver transducers ,one in each chair.

Thanks.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
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Current room is concrete floor,most houses out here have that,...yes I have Clark silver transducers ,one in each chair.

Thanks.
If you have a concrete floor, there is going to be little point in chasing subwoofers that have high spl at 10 hz, you won't get much joy out of it. Shoot for a 15 - 18 hz tune if you want to go ported, and buy some crowsons to set your seating on with an amp like the iNuke 3000 DSP.
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
You may have enough spl now with a 25 hz tune and (4) 12's. As you drop an octave ( 12.5 hz vs 25 hz ) keeping the same radiating area and the same SPL requirement you need 4 X the excursion. Drop even more to 10 hz, and it is even more, 6 fold the excursion compared to 25 hz.

Or, put it another way, you would need 24, 12" drivers, or approximately 12 18" drivers to equal the spl with the same cone excursion as you currently enjoy if you intend to shoot for 10 hz as a tuning point.

Quick sanity check here:

http://www.baudline.com/erik/bass/xmaxer.html

Note: this is for sealed boxes.

With a vented enclosure, at tuning, you will experience lower cone excursion with an excursion maxima at an octave and a half above the vent frequency. If tuning at 10 hz, you will have maximum cone excursion at 15 hz.

Before diving off a cliff and building some huge boxes, you might want to learn how to measure using RoomEQ wizard. Measure a sealed box subwoofer outside, then measure it in places you plan to use these gargantuan boxes you plan for 10hz performance to get a room gain profile.

Room construction details would be helpful, if you have a lossy construction, you might be chasing your tail, and you may not ever realize your desires.

Also, you must consider 1/4 wavelength boundary cancellations. The farther the driver is from boundaries ( large box ) you will lose out on the high end of the subwoofer response due to cancellation from the front wall, side walls or floor.
New room will have full blown soundproofing, staggered studs...clips,hat channel,green glue, etc etc.


Have REW and a umik........I also have a old JBL box I can seal up the horn and ports on and a 15 inch driver to stick in it for measurement purposes.

Current room is almost sealed, no thresh hold seals, new room will be sealed.

Right now I am using probably a 1/4 of what my subs are capable of, so I am not sure how that skews the 6 fold math on excursion ?

Right now in winisd the SPL tab, not max SPL tab, the SPL tab is above ,what I have now with 4, across the board with a 10hz tune with one 18.


The first pic is given her all shes got and I never listen that loud, MV at 0......that was one sub mid point each wall. The second pic is at movie listening level I do use all the time, I think it was MV at -10 to -12.5 .


I need to measure again now that all 4 are at the MLP, but I have the gains way down now since they are all directly behind the seating to get a max reading at the MLP.

Based on the SPL tab for one 18 at 10hz, it clobbers all 4 of mine now from the bottom to the top.....maybe I am missing something here that does not show up in the charts.
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If you have a concrete floor, there is going to be little point in chasing subwoofers that have high spl at 10 hz, you won't get much joy out of it. Shoot for a 15 - 18 hz tune if you want to go ported, and buy some crowsons to set your seating on with an amp like the iNuke 3000 DSP.

New room will have a riser for the second row and possibly a suspended floor for the front of the room.......


I have been modeling/comparing sealed and 16hz tuned boxes.....they give me some extension below what I have now, but the brunt of what they do is just more SPL up high and I do not want or need that.


These are super budget bic f-12`s I have we are comparing the single 18 to.....


I started with a single 10, then the bic f-12, then 3 f-12`s and then added a pl-200 bic as the final 12............what I liked about adding the additional subs was not SPL, I kept turning them down as I added more, what I liked was the tactile feel of room pressure and the furniture shaking and my body.

With 4 drivers in the room, scenes like dory with the tap on the fish tank, the entire room feels like when you have your hand a few inches from the sub port......you can feel the room sort of reverberate with pressure.

My take was the above sensations were mostly caused by driver displacement, rather than SPL since I kept SPL levels the same when I added the additional subs......

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
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Ok....


Just did a REW sweep with the MV at 0 and rew level at -10dbfs...sweep from 20 up, would have turned it up more in REW but clearly the subs were making noise and distressed as I never turn them up that far for movies.


Highest sweep is all room correction turned off, lower sweep is with room correction and dsp.......



So this the current max SPL I guess......


I can try a movie with the RTA and see if it possibly goes to a higher DB level, but I doubt it as the PJ was blurring the picture at this level and it does not blur from vibration when watching movies.
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Ok....


Just did a REW sweep with the MV at 0 and rew level at -10dbfs...sweep from 20 up, would have turned it up more in REW but clearly the subs were making noise and distressed as I never turn them up that far for movies.


Highest sweep is all room correction turned off, lower sweep is with room correction and dsp.......



So this the current max SPL I guess......


I can try a movie with the RTA and see if it possibly goes to a higher DB level, but I doubt it as the PJ was blurring the picture at this level and it does not blur from vibration when watching movies.
If you were getting that high of an output with the REW sweep at -10dbfs, something is suspect with gain structure in either your signal chain from the AVR to the subs, or possibly in the microphone and pre-amp. Can you elaborate more on what gear you are using to measure with>? Is the mic level calibrated to a known good SPL meter?

I would also scale your graph to the default 105-45 dB vertical and 15-200 on the horizontal scale.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
If you were getting that high of an output with the REW sweep at -10dbfs, something is suspect with gain structure in either your signal chain from the AVR to the subs, or possibly in the microphone and pre-amp. Can you elaborate more on what gear you are using to measure with>? Is the mic level calibrated to a known good SPL meter?

I would also scale your graph to the default 105-45 dB vertical and 15-200 on the horizontal scale.
It is that high because the AVR was cranked all the way up........it was a sweep to show max output of the system for comparing to the winisd SPL tab for a single 18 tuned to 10hz.

The mic is a umik from CSL and is calibrated.........


This was done to illustrate, on paper, the 18 tuned to 10hz will do more output than what I currently have at max ouput....way way above what I listen/watch movies at.


Based on that, a single 18 tuned to 10hz provides more SPL from 10hz up and at no point does the 4 12`s have more SPL.


This is based off the SPL tab in winisd, not the max SPL tab, which is considerable higher than that.


I have the old JBL cabinet dug out and a 15 to go in it, I think it is 4 or 5 ft3 in size.......just need to cut some plates to seal it up and see what type of room gain I get with a sealed..........but based on the max output REW sweep of my current configuration and the predicted SPL of a single 18 tuned to 10hz, I see nothing against the 28ft3 ported 18 tuned to 10hz...


I guess while I am at it, I can sweep one of my ported 12`s outside and do the same comparison for room gain, although this room is sort of a no issue as a new room is in the works, so I am not sure I want to do more than check out the sealed in room gain as that chart posted by BScool has me wondering.

But based on the winisd for sealed, discounting room gain, it will take a bunch of amp power and possibly more drivers to get 108 db at 10hz from a sealed design.


I have enough SPL right now to rattle to roof whirly birds on the second floor roof.

The goal of this project is extention below 25hz as I have no need or want for more SPL from 25 to the crossover point and a 18 tuned to 10hz looks to do that across the board, so in will end up doing that and providing more SPL up high than I have now as a side effect, not a design consideration.

I hope I explained it clearly, I am not discouting the information/help provided to me as it is the facts and makes perfect sense........I appreciate all the input, I am learning a lot !


I just currently have all the SPL I want above 25hz, so if this project meets the current performance I have there now, but provides extention way below what I have now then its a win. Also keep in mind the comparison is beig done VS a single 18, I plan on a second one for now and when the new room is done, 2 more for a total of 4 18`s, which should provide at least 10db more than this chart across the board.

Link to Stereo Integrity SI HT 18 sub build......https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-pedestal.html
Speakers and subs for sale...https://www.avsforum.com/forum/209-au...kers-subs.html
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OOopps...forgot the max SPL tab for the single 18.......The SPL tab, not max is lower, but still well above my current 4 subs across the board.
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Here is another in room measurement from the JTR thread of what 3 Submersives=6 sealed 15"(=3 to 4 sealed 18") to show what sealed subs can do in room, I think he has little bit bigger room(from memory) but couldn't find his room dimensions. Maybe @craig john can let us know his room size just to get an idea for comparison of room size and possible room gain from sealed subs.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post54307921

I saw you are going to measure your room for room gain and think that is the best approach. I just thought it would be interesting for you or others to see the low-frequency output in a room from sealed subs. I find it interesting to see actual in room measurements even though I have known and heard about it I like seeing actual measurements.
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It is that high because the AVR was cranked all the way up........it was a sweep to show max output of the system for comparing to the winisd SPL tab for a single 18 tuned to 10hz.

The mic is a umik from CSL and is calibrated.........


This was done to illustrate, on paper, the 18 tuned to 10hz will do more output than what I currently have at max ouput....way way above what I listen/watch movies at.


Based on that, a single 18 tuned to 10hz provides more SPL from 10hz up and at no point does the 4 12`s have more SPL.


This is based off the SPL tab in winisd, not the max SPL tab, which is considerable higher than that.


I have the old JBL cabinet dug out and a 15 to go in it, I think it is 4 or 5 ft3 in size.......just need to cut some plates to seal it up and see what type of room gain I get with a sealed..........but based on the max output REW sweep of my current configuration and the predicted SPL of a single 18 tuned to 10hz, I see nothing against the 28ft3 ported 18 tuned to 10hz...


I guess while I am at it, I can sweep one of my ported 12`s outside and do the same comparison for room gain, although this room is sort of a no issue as a new room is in the works, so I am not sure I want to do more than check out the sealed in room gain as that chart posted by BScool has me wondering.

But based on the winisd for sealed, discounting room gain, it will take a bunch of amp power and possibly more drivers to get 108 db at 10hz from a sealed design.


I have enough SPL right now to rattle to roof whirly birds on the second floor roof.

The goal of this project is extention below 25hz as I have no need or want for more SPL from 25 to the crossover point and a 18 tuned to 10hz looks to do that across the board, so in will end up doing that and providing more SPL up high than I have now as a side effect, not a design consideration.

I hope I explained it clearly, I am not discouting the information/help provided to me as it is the facts and makes perfect sense........I appreciate all the input, I am learning a lot !


I just currently have all the SPL I want above 25hz, so if this project meets the current performance I have there now, but provides extention way below what I have now then its a win. Also keep in mind the comparison is beig done VS a single 18, I plan on a second one for now and when the new room is done, 2 more for a total of 4 18`s, which should provide at least 10db more than this chart across the board.
Bench racing in WinISD doesn't account for room gain, boundary cancellations or thermal issues, and is based on small signal analysis.

I don't own a umik, but have read about it's issues with clipping, depending on the dip switch settings and the SPL.

Here's one thread here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ws-oddity.html

And another:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-umik-1-a.html

One 18 has about the same volume displacement of 2 12's with comparable xmax. 4 12's in optimum enclosures should be able to outperform a single 18, unless they exhibit very short throw and motor non-linearities.

You will also lose out on smoothing with multiple enclosures if you go to a single enclosure.

I still say going with a large enclosure tuned to 10 hz that looks good on paper may not be your best bet with a concrete floor. Good transducers with an amplifier and DSP with dynamic eq is a fantastic thing.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...&comment=16722

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...&comment=16723

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...&comment=16725
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Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #150 of 222 Old 07-17-2017, 08:09 PM
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Bench racing in WinISD doesn't account for room gain, boundary cancellations or thermal issues, and is based on small signal analysis.

I don't own a umik, but have read about it's issues with clipping, depending on the dip switch settings and the SPL.

Here's one thread here:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...ws-oddity.html

And another:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...-umik-1-a.html

One 18 has about the same volume displacement of 2 12's with comparable xmax. 4 12's in optimum enclosures should be able to outperform a single 18, unless they exhibit very short throw and motor non-linearities.

You will also lose out on smoothing with multiple enclosures if you go to a single enclosure.

I still say going with a large enclosure tuned to 10 hz that looks good on paper may not be your best bet with a concrete floor. Good transducers with an amplifier and DSP with dynamic eq is a fantastic thing.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...&comment=16722

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...&comment=16723

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.p...&comment=16725
More on the Umik and Windows:

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...l#post34497074

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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