Ultimax UM18 and 2-PA460 Help - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 66 Old 07-07-2017, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Have you EQed since making those changes? as in trying bumping up that dip slightly? Otherwise that looks very good, it has sounded pretty good I would think. I would boost the bass some and the low end(house curve) since I prefer that sound but people like "looking" at flat graphs so it looks good. But I go by how it sounds to me also, along with how it measures.
Yes I EQ'ed it. I had to bump up two other areas to get that response. I think my inuke software might have disconnected and when I tried to bump up 85 hz the setting didn't stick. I noticed it when I was unhooking the computer and shutting everything down. I'm going to recheck everything this afternoon and see if I can get it any better. I want to thank everyone for their help, especially @LTD02 all of his settings were what led me to that response! Also @BassThatHz I did add two 10" subs to the back corners and they did help the response some and narrowed the dip to 6 db I think, but I didn't take a picture of the chart.
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post #32 of 66 Old 07-07-2017, 01:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tward2 View Post
Yes I EQ'ed it. I had to bump up two other areas to get that response. I think my inuke software might have disconnected and when I tried to bump up 85 hz the setting didn't stick. I noticed it when I was unhooking the computer and shutting everything down. I'm going to recheck everything this afternoon and see if I can get it any better. I want to thank everyone for their help, especially @LTD02 all of his settings were what led me to that response! Also @BassThatHz I did add two 10" subs to the back corners and they did help the response some and narrowed the dip to 6 db I think, but I didn't take a picture of the chart.

Yeah I know that is one thing with the Inuke settings even switching to a different saved amp preset (I have different EQ curves and settings saved) and at times I will switch and one of the settings like say a 80hz PEQ I had set and saved will not be active but I can switch to it another time and it will be. Not the most reliable it seems. I mean it is nice but I have found that glitches like that happens occasionally. But I know most people set it and forget it but I am always messing around with mine.

Anyway about that dip, yeah if your setting didn't stick fix it but even with that dip that is a really nice response.

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post #33 of 66 Old 07-09-2017, 04:58 PM
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More importantly, how does it sound?
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post #34 of 66 Old 07-10-2017, 05:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Sounds GREAT to me. I'm very happy with the results. I had to set the gain to -12 on the PA460's to level match everything.
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post #35 of 66 Old 07-11-2017, 12:45 PM
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This thread needs measurements.
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post #36 of 66 Old 07-11-2017, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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@BassThatHz let me know what measurements you would like and I will get them. I'm not great at REW but I'm sure if I have any questions someone here can point me in the right direction!


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post #37 of 66 Old 07-13-2017, 05:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
This thread needs measurements.
let me know what measurements you would like and I will get them. I'm not great at REW but I'm sure if I have any questions someone here can point me in the right direction!
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post #38 of 66 Old 07-20-2017, 10:32 AM - Thread Starter
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I need some help from all the box designers out there. I have the response that I want from my subs, but they take up alot of room and I would like to hide them like the rest of my speakers. I currently have 2- 4 cu ft flatpacks with PA460's on the left hand side and 1 mini marty with a UM18 on the right. I would like to build some boxes across the whole front wall that I can cover in fabric and hide the drivers and making the depth much shallower. The room is 11'4" wide and the screen is 26" from the floor. I was also thinking of making the PA460 around 2 cu ft. Main objective is to minimize how much the box protrudes into the room and make them look more built in.
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post #39 of 66 Old 03-08-2019, 06:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
a system that splits the subwoofer into a ported um18 mini-marty type sub (large 17hz tune ported) and a pair of sealed pa460 subs (4 cubic feet) can be made to combine to produce the combination of the two (the red line).


in this system the blue line (mbm's) will be carrying most all of the load from 70hz up, will be sharing the load with the ported cab down to about 40hz and then the ported cab will take over from there down.







with the um18 in a ported cab having to cover the midbass by itself, the driver is consuming lots of amp power and lots of current through the driver. this can cause some power compression and some other artifacts that may be why you aren't completely happy.


the red line is how much power the amp requires to produce the output of the red frequency response curve using the um18 driver only. in the combo system, the um18 power requirement falls to the green line and the much more efficient pa460 take over the upper end (the blue line).





with the appropriate eq, phase between the ported cab and the sealed mbm tracks nicely.





eq on the system to start would be simply the 17hz high pass filter on the sub (as would be done anyways).
then a 50hz low pass 4th order LR 24db/oct would be set in the inuke on the um18.
the pa460 sealed cabs would get two filters.
a 3rd order high pass butterworth (18db/oct) at 40hz to integrate the spl with the um18 around the crossover region
then there would also be a 4th order high pass butterworth (24db/oct) filter at 20hz. this one doesn't impact the frequency response, but pulls the phase into near perfect alignment.


with the system all integrated, any overall eq that you'd like to apply to the result would simply be added to both the sub systems. so if you wanted +3db at 30hz q=0.7 added to the red line, that filter would be added to both the um18 channel AND the pa460 channel.


any low pass filtering bass management from the avr would be applied to both input signals before being process in the inuke dsp.


with your smallish room, that modeled red line would probably end up pretty flat (or even rising a bit) down into the teens.

@LTD02 I think you just might be my new hero! I can't wait to try this out! (I wish I would have seen this post before cutting all my VBSS pieces.)

This post removed a ton of mystery out of my current ongoing build project. Thanks again.

It is too bad @BassThatHz did not follow up when @Tward2 asked which REW Measurements to run. :/ (Yes I blame you!, we are newbs so we have an excuse)
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post #40 of 66 Old 03-08-2019, 06:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagtha View Post
@LTD02 I think you just might be my new hero! I can't wait to try this out! (I wish I would have seen this post before cutting all my VBSS pieces.)



This post removed a ton of mystery out of my current ongoing build project. Thanks again.



It is too bad @BassThatHz did not follow up when @Tward2 asked which REW Measurements to run. :/ (Yes I blame you!, we are newbs so we have an excuse)


My theater is in a bit of disarray right now as I am upgrading my screen, projector and lens. Hopefully should be finished in a week or 2 tops. Offer still stands I will measure what anyone wants.


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post #41 of 66 Old 03-10-2019, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by kagtha View Post
It is too bad @BassThatHz did not follow up when @Tward2 asked which REW Measurements to run. :/ (Yes I blame you!, we are newbs so we have an excuse)
When in doubt... chart "all the things!"
It's not like you have an option, because REW automatically graphs all of them for you, more or less...
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post #42 of 66 Old 03-10-2019, 03:17 PM
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I'm very happy with my pair of PA460s in 31hz tuned cabinets AND a UM18 in a mini-marty. The PA460s definitely provide more punch and tactile feel, but where they would start dropping off below 31hz, the UM18 takes over and keeps the bass going strong.
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post #43 of 66 Old 04-04-2019, 05:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
a system that splits the subwoofer into a ported um18 mini-marty type sub (large 17hz tune ported) and a pair of sealed pa460 subs (4 cubic feet) can be made to combine to produce the combination of the two (the red line).


in this system the blue line (mbm's) will be carrying most all of the load from 70hz up, will be sharing the load with the ported cab down to about 40hz and then the ported cab will take over from there down.







with the um18 in a ported cab having to cover the midbass by itself, the driver...
@LTD02

Thank you for this information, I was able to recreate your WinISD results minus the red plot line.
I have 4 VBSS nearfields firing from sofa rear toward the MLP. How do I calculate SPL for 4 VBSSs so I can see if multiples affect the transition to the Marty?

Which leads me to one more newb question. When I finish my Full Marty side table (see attached) I was planning on testing it directed towards the MLP vs down firing... Will one cancel sound more than the other? I don't get how vertical sound waves react with horizontal sound waves.
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post #44 of 66 Old 04-04-2019, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagtha View Post
@LTD02
I have 4 VBSS nearfields firing from sofa rear toward the MLP. How do I calculate SPL for 4 VBSSs so I can see if multiples affect the transition to the Marty?
4 co-located subs have the same theoretical response shape, just 12db more output.

Quote:
When I finish my Full Marty side table (see attached) I was planning on testing it directed towards the MLP vs down firing... Will one cancel sound more than the other? I don't get how vertical sound waves react with horizontal sound waves.
in the bass, the wavelengths are quite long, so small orientations in direction may not have a huge impact.

speed of sound = 1130 ft/sec under normal conditions

example of bass frequency = 50 Hz

1130 ft/sec / 50 1/s = ~23 ft.

so if the driver is 6 inches one way or another, it isn't likely to make a measurable difference.
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post #45 of 66 Old 04-19-2019, 07:14 AM
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So, it would be reasonable to say that adding a huge Marty side table would not have much benefit... Right?

The more I research, the more I understand that my logic is flawed.

If I actually add a near-field Marty, I might be able to get a few Hz lower but who cares right? I mean for one, there are not many moments under 30hz, and for two, the four near-field VBSS are meant for the super low end for tactile or "scary" or "car door" type moments where LFE type sound is important. Right? So they will already be set pretty low Watts wise as well as hz wise.

I am sure I will learn more once I take REW measurements with the front 1099 LCRs with and without the VBSSs.

Or can the Marty be crossed over a bit higher to compliment the 1099s since it will be harder to localize it?

Soo confused. Instead of building Marty, I am considering using the second NX6000D channel to run a string of Bass Shakers.


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post #46 of 66 Old 04-21-2019, 10:28 AM
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@LTD02

I am sorry for the book above @LTD02

I know you may be biased towards the Marty for obvious reasons, but if it were your system(see attached mockup of my room and hardware in above post) and you listened to music and movies would you even bother building the near-field UM22-18 Marty if you have 4 near-field VBSSs?

Thanks again for your help.

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post #47 of 66 Old 04-22-2019, 01:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kagtha View Post
So, it would be reasonable to say that adding a huge Marty side table would not have much benefit... Right?
that kind of depends. right now, you are only tuned to 30hz on the vbss and that might not be low enough.

Quote:
If I actually add a near-field Marty, I might be able to get a few Hz lower but who cares right? I mean for one, there are not many moments under 30hz, and for two, the four near-field VBSS are meant for the super low end for tactile or "scary" or "car door" type moments where LFE type sound is important. Right? So they will already be set pretty low Watts wise as well as hz wise.
most folks would like to get lower than 30hz for movies, but there is a tradeoff betwen output and extension.


Quote:
I am sure I will learn more once I take REW measurements with the front 1099 LCRs with and without the VBSSs.
are you planning to cross your 1099's over to the vbss at the typical 80hz? if so, there won't be much content below about 70Hz or so coming from your mains.

Quote:
Or can the Marty be crossed over a bit higher to compliment the 1099s since it will be harder to localize it?
localization depends more on frequency than the direction that the driver is firing.

Quote:
Soo confused. Instead of building Marty, I am considering using the second NX6000D channel to run a string of Bass Shakers.
that could work.


since you have four of them, i'd probably suggest tuning the vbss for around 18 hz and see how you like the bass. with nearfield you may not need to boost the low end as much and you should have over 120dB of output on the low end with all four. depending on cab size you may need to limit the power/voltage a little bit.

if measurements show no cancellations and you still want more low end output, then going to a big ported cab also tuned to around 18hz would help provide additional low end output, perhaps as much as another 6db or so. then, instead of crossing one over to the other, run them all together.

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post #48 of 66 Old 04-22-2019, 01:10 PM
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Thank you so much for the knowledge transfer. Responses beliw..

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
that kind of depends. right now, you are only tuned to 30hz on the vbss and that might not be low enough.







most folks would like to get lower than 30hz for movies, but there is a tradeoff betwen output and extension.









are you planning to cross your 1099's over to the vbss at the typical 80hz? if so, there won't be much content below about 70Hz or so coming from your mains.

YES. Since I am not quite finished with the VBSS I have a couple active subs under the sofa crossed @ 80Hz and they do a lot of "surprising". The 1099s sound great even @ low volume but there seems to be something missing from the LCRs almost like they are a bit twangy but that may be my room I guess. It makes me wonder if it would fill in with an 18 up front but am at a loss on how to use what I have unless I put the future Marty in a corner?


Quote:

localization depends more on frequency than the direction that the driver is firing.







that could work.





since you have four of them, i'd probably suggest tuning the vbss for around 18 hz and see how you like the bass. with nearfield you may not need to boost the low end as much and you should have over 120dB of output on the low end with all four. depending on cab size you may need to limit the power/voltage a little bit.



if measurements show no cancellations and you still want more low end output, then going to a big ported cab also tuned to around 18hz would help provide additional low end output, perhaps as much as another 6db or so. then, instead of crossing one over to the other, run them all together.
This makes sense, thanks LT.





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post #49 of 66 Old 06-09-2019, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
a system that splits the subwoofer into a ported um18 mini-marty type sub (large 17hz tune ported) and a pair of sealed pa460 subs (4 cubic feet) can be made to combine to produce the combination of the two (the red line).


in this system the blue line (mbm's) will be carrying most all of the load from 70hz up, will be sharing the load with the ported cab down to about 40hz and then the ported cab will take over from there down.







with the um18 in a ported cab having to cover the midbass by itself, the driver is consuming lots of amp power and lots of current through the driver. this can cause some power compression and some other artifacts that may be why you aren't completely happy.


the red line is how much power the amp requires to produce the output of the red frequency response curve using the um18 driver only. in the combo system, the um18 power requirement falls to the green line and the much more efficient pa460 take over the upper end (the blue line).





with the appropriate eq, phase between the ported cab and the sealed mbm tracks nicely.





eq on the system to start would be simply the 17hz high pass filter on the sub (as would be done anyways).
then a 50hz low pass 4th order LR 24db/oct would be set in the inuke on the um18.
the pa460 sealed cabs would get two filters.
a 3rd order high pass butterworth (18db/oct) at 40hz to integrate the spl with the um18 around the crossover region
then there would also be a 4th order high pass butterworth (24db/oct) filter at 20hz. this one doesn't impact the frequency response, but pulls the phase into near perfect alignment.


with the system all integrated, any overall eq that you'd like to apply to the result would simply be added to both the sub systems. so if you wanted +3db at 30hz q=0.7 added to the red line, that filter would be added to both the um18 channel AND the pa460 channel.


any low pass filtering bass management from the avr would be applied to both input signals before being process in the inuke dsp.


with your smallish room, that modeled red line would probably end up pretty flat (or even rising a bit) down into the teens.
Can someone model this with 2 or 4 vbss's tuned to 31Hz? besides space is there any advantage to going the small sealed vs the vbss?
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post #50 of 66 Old 06-09-2019, 06:37 PM
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Can someone model this with 2 or 4 vbss's tuned to 31Hz? besides space is there any advantage to going the small sealed vs the vbss?
with no EQ, the subs look kind of like this

um in full marty
pa in 6 cubic footer tuned to 31hz (slightly larger or smaller cab will be roughly the same)



level match the upper end.
1100 watts to um18
50 watts to a pair of vbbs subs

the -3db point is a good target for the crossover point, since a 2nd order crossover is -3db down at that point.

40hz is about where this occurs here.

so,
high pass 2nd order BW at 40Hz 12db/oct on the vbss
low pass 4th order LR at 40hz 24db/oct on the um18

that will give a response that looks something like this (two co-located sources give +6db where they meet in response):



IF phase is correct through the crossover region.

which it is.



in room, it could be a little different, but this could be a starting point.
with subs no co-located, it will also be different.
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post #51 of 66 Old 06-09-2019, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post





What happens when you do four PA460s in 31hz VBSSs?
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post #52 of 66 Old 06-09-2019, 08:43 PM
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What happens when you do four PA460s in 31hz VBSSs?
the curve would be the same, theoretically (in room, because of slightly different positions of the subs even if co-located, the response will be slightly different).

power would just be reduced by 50% for the same level with twice as many speakers.

max output would be 6db higher for doubling up speakers and power.

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post #53 of 66 Old 06-09-2019, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the curve would be the same, theoretically (in room, because of slightly different positions of the subs even if co-located, the response will be slightly different).

power would just be reduced by 50% for the same level with twice as many speakers.

max output would be 6db higher for doubling up speakers and power.
I have 2 full um-18 matry's driven with a inuke 6000dsp and want the chest slam addition of mbm's (95% movies). I have a single channel free on an inuke 3000dsp to drive the mbm's. Due to space limits, what are your thoughts on either 2 vbss's (target tune 31Hz???) vs 4 small sealed vs 2 Dual Opposed ? Small room (14 x 16 x 7.3 ft). I don't know if the Dual Opposed help at all?

OP...hope this is on topic for you
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post #54 of 66 Old 06-10-2019, 10:30 AM
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I have 2 full um-18 matry's driven with a inuke 6000dsp and want the chest slam addition of mbm's (95% movies). I have a single channel free on an inuke 3000dsp to drive the mbm's. Due to space limits, what are your thoughts on either 2 vbss's (target tune 31Hz???) vs 4 small sealed vs 2 Dual Opposed ? Small room (14 x 16 x 7.3 ft). I don't know if the Dual Opposed help at all?

OP...hope this is on topic for you
either the 2 vbss (31hz tuning would be fine) or 4 small sealed would be good. 2 vbss is probably all that you need, but who knows. :-) dual-opposed might be more difficult to integrate, so i probably wouldn't choose that option.
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2 VBSS tuned to 31hz would be a great compliment to the dual UM18s. And not to mention, you can do the dual 31hz VBSS for only ~$250
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either the 2 vbss (31hz tuning would be fine) or 4 small sealed would be good. 2 vbss is probably all that you need, but who knows. :-) dual-opposed might be more difficult to integrate, so i probably wouldn't choose that option.
would it matter if the marty's are located in the back corners and the PA's will need to be on the front wall?
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would it matter if the marty's are located in the back corners and the PA's will need to be on the front wall?

Play around with both configurations and see what sounds/feels best.
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Play around with both configurations and see what sounds/feels best.
sorry, to be clear.....will it matter what enclosure (ported vs sealed...2 vs 4) I only have the front wall for available positioning.
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I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The VBSS setup is a ported cabinet. Both LTD02 and I are suggesting you do a 31hz tuned, ported VBSS setup. Now if you can swing 4 VBSS, then that would be even better. All of which would be great on your front wall.
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post #60 of 66 Old 06-10-2019, 05:40 PM
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I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. The VBSS setup is a ported cabinet. Both LTD02 and I are suggesting you do a 31hz tuned, ported VBSS setup. Now if you can swing 4 VBSS, then that would be even better. All of which would be great on your front wall.
I can fit either 2 vbss's or 4 sealed.....those are my options. 46" wide by 22" tall available on each side of my cc and under my screen.
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