Ultimax UM18 and 2-PA460 Help - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 66 Old 06-29-2017, 11:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Ultimax UM18 and 2-PA460 Help

I have some ultimax drivers and I'm not happy with the midbass. I have tried sealed and mini marty enclosures. They have plenty of low frequency extension. So I ordered 2-PA460's to keep up with them. I plan on using 1 Ultimax on a single channel of my Inuke 6000DSP and 2-PA460's on the other channel. I would like to custom build some enclosures to go across my screen wall. I have 11.5 feet of width and 24" of height to use and would like to keep the depth as shallow as possible. My room is only 17.25 feet deep and 8-9 feet high. Depending on the soffit. Should I go all sealed? Or ported? If ported, what should I tune the individual drivers to?
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post #2 of 66 Old 06-29-2017, 11:19 AM
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what are your main speakers?

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post #3 of 66 Old 06-29-2017, 11:53 AM
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Box model it in winisd you will see the 460 is loudest ported but needs a huge box to have a flat knee. Looks like you might have the needed space for optimally sized boxes.

The 460 is good for a solid 300w rms each. Set a limiter or buy more of them. The 6k has enough juice to fry 2 if you aren't careful.
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post #4 of 66 Old 06-29-2017, 12:03 PM - Thread Starter
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The mains are Speakercraft Aim Cinema One's
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post #5 of 66 Old 06-29-2017, 12:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
what are your main speakers?
The mains are Speakercraft Aim Cinema One's
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post #6 of 66 Old 06-29-2017, 12:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Box model it in winisd you will see the 460 is loudest ported but needs a huge box to have a flat knee. Looks like you might have the needed space for optimally sized boxes.

The 460 is good for a solid 300w rms each. Set a limiter or buy more if them. The 6k has enough juice to fry 2 if you aren't careful.
Don't you have several PA460's in sealed enclosures?
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post #7 of 66 Old 06-29-2017, 10:13 PM
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You could try sealed first, that way you don't have different tuned cabs canceling each other out. Smaller cabs too.

Unless you tuned them both to 15Hz / 20Hz or so, if you wanted to do ported. Just make sure that have the same tune.

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post #8 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 05:50 AM - Thread Starter
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What size sealed cabinet would get the most out of each of the drivers?
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post #9 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 07:13 AM
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Sealed really doesn't make sense with this driver IMO. The recommended sealed cab in winisd is 4 cubic feet. But at the same 4 cubic feet, you can port it to 40hz and get alot more output. And the port doesn't need to be very big, so the total cab volume is only slightly larger than 4 cubic feet.

You could even use a 4 cubic foot flatpack. Add the cheap 6inch port that is 6 inches long that PE sells for $3, to get your tune around 40hz. All you have to do is cut the port hole (you would have to make sure there is a spot big enough to fit the port). You'll need a hpf of 18db/bw at 27hz.
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post #10 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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@Brazle was saying that I wouldn't want subs tuned to different frequency's. So should I keep the Ultimax in a sealed cab, the Mini Marty or do two tuned to 15hz for the PA460's to match?
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post #11 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 08:03 AM
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You are just concerned with midbass, right? What frequency range are you specifically after? If I understand you correctly, you are looking to increase your 80-200hz range? If this is the case, you could easily do a 2 cubic foot box per PA460. This will give you an F3 of around 69hz. This will also give you a nice boost in the 100-200hz range. You can get a lot more extension out of a PA460 with it being ported and in a bigger box, but it doesn't sound like that is what you are after.
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post #12 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 08:10 AM - Thread Starter
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That is correct. I'm happy with the lower extension of the UM18. I just want the PA460's to complement it and help fill the gap between the response of the UM18 and my mains.
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post #13 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 08:56 AM
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You only need them to be tuned the same if they are covering the same bandwidth. If you will be low passing the UM, and crossing over to the 460s, then they certainly don't need to be tuned the same.
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post #14 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tward2 View Post
Don't you have several PA460's in sealed enclosures?
I have several yes.
I plan on upgrading to 16 of them on 8kW, sealed dual-opposed, which happens to be louder than ported... given my space constraints.
99% of my system is sealed so I'm flat to 2-4hz with no phase issues or port noise, but it's not effecient or cheap. I'm fine with that
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post #15 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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I have space constraints as well. I'm looking for the most output and flattest response with all subs across the front wall. So maximum area of 11.5 feet wide 24" high and minimal depth. So I was thinking of building three seperate boxes. Ultimax in the middle of the front wall and the Pa460's in the front corners. But I'm still unsure on going sealed for space, or ported for output. And if I go ported do I tune them the same or 15 hz for the Ultimax and 40-45hz to maximize the TR of the PA460's.
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post #16 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 11:43 AM
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post #17 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 12:30 PM
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a system that splits the subwoofer into a ported um18 mini-marty type sub (large 17hz tune ported) and a pair of sealed pa460 subs (4 cubic feet) can be made to combine to produce the combination of the two (the red line).


in this system the blue line (mbm's) will be carrying most all of the load from 70hz up, will be sharing the load with the ported cab down to about 40hz and then the ported cab will take over from there down.







with the um18 in a ported cab having to cover the midbass by itself, the driver is consuming lots of amp power and lots of current through the driver. this can cause some power compression and some other artifacts that may be why you aren't completely happy.


the red line is how much power the amp requires to produce the output of the red frequency response curve using the um18 driver only. in the combo system, the um18 power requirement falls to the green line and the much more efficient pa460 take over the upper end (the blue line).





with the appropriate eq, phase between the ported cab and the sealed mbm tracks nicely.





eq on the system to start would be simply the 17hz high pass filter on the sub (as would be done anyways).
then a 50hz low pass 4th order LR 24db/oct would be set in the inuke on the um18.
the pa460 sealed cabs would get two filters.
a 3rd order high pass butterworth (18db/oct) at 40hz to integrate the spl with the um18 around the crossover region
then there would also be a 4th order high pass butterworth (24db/oct) filter at 20hz. this one doesn't impact the frequency response, but pulls the phase into near perfect alignment.


with the system all integrated, any overall eq that you'd like to apply to the result would simply be added to both the sub systems. so if you wanted +3db at 30hz q=0.7 added to the red line, that filter would be added to both the um18 channel AND the pa460 channel.


any low pass filtering bass management from the avr would be applied to both input signals before being process in the inuke dsp.


with your smallish room, that modeled red line would probably end up pretty flat (or even rising a bit) down into the teens.
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post #18 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tward2 View Post
That is correct. I'm happy with the lower extension of the UM18. I just want the PA460's to complement it and help fill the gap between the response of the UM18 and my mains.
If this is the case, I would not go ported as it does not help you and and will need almost twice as big of box. Here's a breakdown of the PA 460 in 2, 3 and 4 cubic foot boxes. You're not gaining much by going with a 4 cubic foot box (IMHO). The 2 gives you a boost in the exact region you are trying to recreate. Just use your inuke dsp to set it to the exact frequencies you want help in(ie 80-200hz).



With a 2 cuft box it would be roughly 20, 20, 13 (depending on bracing and speaker displacment and double baffle). It may need to be a little bigger once you figure out exactly how much space you will be using via bracing, etc.
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post #19 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 01:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Thank you @LTD02 and @Al Toid . That is exactly what I needed to know. I have a mini marty and two sealed flatpacks at home and my PA460s just got delivered today. I will put them in and adjust the eq and see how they sound and measure.
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post #20 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 06:32 PM
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Quote:
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So maximum area of 11.5 feet wide 24" high and minimal depth.
That allows for some large boxes (potentially...)

The 460's are louder than the UM-18's *if* you buy a money-equivalent amount of them (i.e. three) and can build a 40cuft box for them.
The UM-18 win's by 1db between 13-17hz. Big deal! The 460's win above and below that as per the green line.



White is 1 sealed UM-18 4cuft 1kW
Pink is 1 sealed 460 4cuft 0.5kW
Red is 1 15hz ported UM-18 40cuft 1kW
Green is 4 15hz ported 460's 40cuft 2kW
Yellow is 16 sealed 460's 80cuft 8kW
Blue is 16 ported 460's 500cuft 8kW

I'm really short on floor space (because I filled my room with subs ). So I'm stuffing 16 460's into 20inchesx20inches. I'll lose 5db @ 15hz because of it vs ideal-sealed. Is what it is...

In the future if I build theater 2.0 I might put them in a wall and do the blue curve.

For the money the 460's are a great value.
I've been using 460's for 7 years now.
They have more mid-bass than a LMS-18 given 5kW. LOL
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post #21 of 66 Old 06-30-2017, 11:09 PM
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You are really REALLY making we want to order 8 pa460's I have the perfect spot for them "16 if I did dual opposed ☺" i have to order amps though 😥 "been wanting a clone"
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post #22 of 66 Old 07-03-2017, 06:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Ultimax UM18 and 2-PA460 Help

@LTD02 where do I enter the 3rd and 4th order highpass crossovers in the inuke software?


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post #23 of 66 Old 07-04-2017, 12:14 PM
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Wow, good stuff guys! Youve got me rethinking my 460 plan.

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post #24 of 66 Old 07-04-2017, 06:01 PM
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@LTD02 where do I enter the 3rd and 4th order highpass crossovers in the inuke software?


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the protective high pass filters are on the filter/crossover tab.


each "order" is 6db/oct and impacts how steep the slope is below the corner frequency, i.e. how fast the spl is rolled off.


a "1st order" is 6db/oct
a "2nd order" is 12db/oct
a "3rd order" is 18db/oct
a "4th order" is 24db/oct
and so on...


in most cases a 2nd order or 3rd order should be sufficient.


just for experimental purposes, if the frequency is set to 200hz, then it is easy to see how the rolloff changes with each choice of slope. just be sure to switch it back to 20hz for playback. those same slopes still apply, they are just not shown on the chart below 20hz.



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post #25 of 66 Old 07-04-2017, 06:08 PM
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if shooting for the filters in post 17, I'm not sure if that can be implemented exactly, but something like this would be a good start:


assuming um18 on channel A and PA460 on channel B. this one increases the slope on the 40hz high pass to 4th order and that actually brings the phase in pretty good.


also, the gain would have to be adjusted to get the levels matched up correctly, but that would either have to be done by ear or with in room measurements. a starting point would be to pull down the pa460 level by about 10db.


so putting it all together would look something like this:








phase hold pretty tight through the crossover and only diverges well under 20hz were the contribution from the pa460 is very small anyway, so any cancellation effects would be minimal.


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post #26 of 66 Old 07-05-2017, 05:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
if shooting for the filters in post 17, I'm not sure if that can be implemented exactly, but something like this would be a good start:


assuming um18 on channel A and PA460 on channel B. this one increases the slope on the 40hz high pass to 4th order and that actually brings the phase in pretty good.


also, the gain would have to be adjusted to get the levels matched up correctly, but that would either have to be done by ear or with in room measurements. a starting point would be to pull down the pa460 level by about 10db.


so putting it all together would look something like this:








phase hold pretty tight through the crossover and only diverges well under 20hz were the contribution from the pa460 is very small anyway, so any cancellation effects would be minimal.


Thank you for the information and all the help! I will input those into the INuke today and take some measurements with REW.
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Thank you for the information and all the help! I will input those into the INuke today and take some measurements with REW.


Please let us know how this works for you. My room is slightly larger and I am considering a subwoofer system exactly like what you are planning.


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post #28 of 66 Old 07-07-2017, 05:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Adjusted the distance and phase on my subs. Also adjusted the the distance on my mains and messed around with the crossovers. This is about as good as I can get with a null at around 85hz. Any other suggestions?
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post #29 of 66 Old 07-07-2017, 12:16 PM
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That's better than 90% of rooms. I wouldn't worry about it...

Now, just add more subs until you have the spl you desire...

Besides, more subs will smooth it out even more, with less eq needed... (and be louder.)
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post #30 of 66 Old 07-07-2017, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tward2 View Post
Adjusted the distance and phase on my subs. Also adjusted the the distance on my mains and messed around with the crossovers. This is about as good as I can get with a null at around 85hz. Any other suggestions?
Have you EQed since making those changes? as in trying bumping up that dip slightly? Otherwise that looks very good, it has sounded pretty good I would think. I would boost the bass some and the low end(house curve) since I prefer that sound but people like "looking" at flat graphs so it looks good. But I go by how it sounds to me also, along with how it measures.
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