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post #331 of 391 Old 06-07-2018, 05:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
This is a very good question... the answer is no, not at all. You'd be comparing the max numbers on a driver tested with a k20 amp in a 4 cube box. If you drove the driver with another amp with considerably less output capabilities in a different sized box, obviously the test would reflect much different results.
Understood, there is sub excursion and wattage limit ...so, if we keep the box the same (PE is 4.0 and Ricci is 4.2...no info on filling) ...the performance could be similar * if * the iNuke can drive the UM18 up to its excursion and wattage limit? I know the box is a very important variable when comparing to Ricci results, but lets keep that for a moment aside.

Then, that is the question... Can the iNuke drive the UM18 sub to its excursion and wattage limit (both channels driven 4ohm) in a 4.0cuf box? ...even at 10hz for at least 10 seconds?

If so, I would expect a very close performance to what Ricci got... or I have an incorrect expectation?

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What is WW? What 18 subs? Link the thread.
WW is Wonder Woman as mentioned on the quote... the thread is on a Facebook group.
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post #332 of 391 Old 06-07-2018, 08:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Then, that is the question... Can the iNuke drive the UM18 sub to its excursion and wattage limit (both channels driven 4ohm) in a 4.0cuf box? ...even at 10hz for at least 10 seconds?
Again, no. 4 cubes is not optimal for this driver IMO when paired with the NU6k. Again, this is the excursion graph of what the amp can do at 10Hz with the UM in 4 cubes:


See how it's not yet at it's xmax? That being said, if you're careless you can absolutely destroy this driver with this same amount of power.

You'll get less than this amount of power if you under-feed the amplifier so that is a determining factor as well. Also, I wouldn't recommend sustained signal at 10Hz for a duration of 10 seconds to any system at power and excursion limits.

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If so, I would expect a very close performance to what Ricci got... or I have an incorrect expectation?
Which one of his measurements are you talking about? Frequency response will be similar but not any of the max numbers. Ricci was at a higher voltage than the nuke can produce, pushing the driver to mechanical limits for some of those measurements.

It's not ideal to design a system to where the amp has the potential to push your drivers that hard because in a worst case scenario, it will likely cause driver damage.

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WW is Wonder Woman as mentioned on the quote... the thread is on a Facebook group.
I don't have any information to base a theory for this question. I don't know what scene was used, drivers, enclosure, room size, amplifier or sub trim level. I'm not on FB so you'll have to bring the text here for me to comment. Will you clip a nuke with dual UM18's? Maybe, maybe not. Depends on how loud you want it, what size room you have, how much power you can feed the amp with and what the source material is. Just a guess but if you want > reference level playback at 10Hz, you're probably going to have to double the system you're thinking of for another 6dB at least. No free lunch, can't squeeze blood from a turnip and all that jazz.
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post #333 of 391 Old 06-07-2018, 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Again, no. 4 cubes is not optimal for this driver IMO when paired with the NU6k. Again, this is the excursion graph of what the amp can do at 10Hz with the UM in 4 cubes:

See how it's not yet at it's xmax?

Ricci was at a higher voltage than the nuke can produce, pushing the driver to mechanical limits for some of those measurements.
In some of his measurements, Ricci was able to get +90db CEA2010 at 10Hz with this driver, but I am clear now that in order to get a similar performance like Ricci got, I will need a better amp and/or enclosure for the driver.

Thank you so much for your help and time, appreciated!
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post #334 of 391 Old 06-10-2018, 06:39 PM
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@Shreds

I continue reading and learning. I was reading >this post< from you and I was wondering if it is possible to increase the low end output of the UM-18 22 using the Nu6000 (given its power limits) on a 7 or 8 cuf without still exceeding its XMax playing 10hz?

What I am trying to know is how close I can get to Ricci measurements (i.e. his CEA2010 @ 10hz) with that NU6000 amp and the UM18 sub in a sealed config. I have a maximum space of 20" x 23" x 36" to put a sub.

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The CEA-2010 short term, distortion limited, burst output measurements once again confirm that the UM18-22 driver does indeed have a lot of linear excursion. It produces a passing result at 10hz of about 90dB with a 56 volt input and over 94dB at the 12.5Hz band with a 69 volt input.
I am sorry, but I can't interpret some charts well since some don't have any legend.

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post #335 of 391 Old 06-10-2018, 07:49 PM
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Originally Posted by jm10 View Post
What I am trying to know is how close I can get to Ricci measurements (i.e. his CEA2010 @ 10hz) with that NU6000 amp and the UM18 sub in a sealed config. I have a maximum space of 20" x 23" x 36" to put a sub.
Is there a reason you have your heart set on matching Ricci's measurements? Do you even know if 90dB @ 10Hz is even going to do anything for you?

You are stating size constraints. Is that for a single sub, dual, or more? If you are severely limited on space and quantity of subs and truly want to chase 10Hz, you're probably going to need a beefier driver and amp. Otherwise, ported is probably going to be your best bet.

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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #336 of 391 Old 06-10-2018, 08:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jm10 View Post
I was reading >this post< from you and I was wondering if it is possible to increase the low end output of the UM-18 22 using the Nu6000 (given its power limits) on a 7 or 8 cuf without still exceeding its XMax playing 10hz?
Yes, low end efficiency goes up with a larger box. That's why I was recommending at least 6 cubes per driver. For example:

Excursion:


SPL:

A projected difference of ~2.7dB at 10Hz.

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Originally Posted by jm10 View Post
What I am trying to know is how close I can get to Ricci measurements (i.e. his CEA2010 @ 10hz) with that NU6000 amp
and the UM18 sub in a sealed config. I have a maximum space of 20" x 23" x 36" to put a sub.
Again, I wouldn't push this driver to the mechanical limits like the DB tests. The projected excursion for the 7 cube box is the most I would push it for the UM. Ricci doesn't measure the xmax for those tests because he'd be out there all day just measuring one sub so it's not possible to tell you what the difference in output would be especially after figuring in your room gain profile and distance to MLP.

Your maximum space is enough for ~9cubes. Is that for one cab or both?
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post #337 of 391 Old 06-11-2018, 05:17 PM
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Your maximum space is enough for ~9cubes. Is that for one cab or both?
That is the space I have behind each mains (L&R) where I can put them and be WAF compliant and room ok as I tested current sub on each of those locations facing towards the side walls and both locations have nice response there. I might need to repeat the test I did to put current sub closer to the wall to better resemble a box that large.

I am also considering the Ryhmik F18 CI Kit on a 4.0 - 4.2 cuf. The good thing with Ryhmik is that all is set... but cost can double.
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post #338 of 391 Old 06-11-2018, 05:25 PM
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With your limitation of only two subs, and having 9 cubes to work with, I'd definitely go ported and tuned in the teens. You'll get so much more output in the 15-30Hz range where it will have a major impact rather than giving that up in exchange for chasing lower frequencies at levels that will have little impact.

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Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4
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post #339 of 391 Old 06-11-2018, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Is there a reason you have your heart set on matching Ricci's measurements? Do you even know if 90dB @ 10Hz is even going to do anything for you?

You are stating size constraints. Is that for a single sub, dual, or more? If you are severely limited on space and quantity of subs and truly want to chase 10Hz, you're probably going to need a beefier driver and amp. Otherwise, ported is probably going to be your best bet.
As per data-bass.com, it looks like the cea2010 of >90dB @ 10hz (open field) can get me close to 115 db @ 10Hz once in-room.. I have a smaller room than Ricci, full concrete house and sit at 8-10ft of subs.... The only issue with my room is that is open on the back half right.... I might get to 115 db @ 10hz... who knows.
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post #340 of 391 Old 06-11-2018, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I have a smaller room than Ricci, full concrete house and sit at 8-10ft of subs.... The only issue with my room is that is open on the back half right.... I might get to 115 db @ 10hz... who knows.
Design the sealed boxes so that your 2 UM's will hit just over their rated xmax with the nuke and I think you'll be alright.
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post #341 of 391 Old 06-12-2018, 08:07 AM
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Design the sealed boxes so that your 2 UM's will hit just over their rated xmax with the nuke and I think you'll be alright.
Shreds, thanks for all your help... men, only if I know how to do it right!

I am using Winisd, but I have no freakin clue what I am doing. I was looking at >this post< trying to know what wattage to use on the design, but I have no idea the appropriate value.

Attached what I did.
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post #342 of 391 Old 06-12-2018, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by jm10 View Post
Shreds, thanks for all your help... men, only if I know how to do it right!

I am using Winisd, but I have no freakin clue what I am doing. I was looking at >this post< trying to know what wattage to use on the design, but I have no idea the appropriate value.

Attached what I did.
First off, I'm a noob in these parts so if one of the regulars chimes in, I'd go with that.

But, FWIW, I was going to build a sealed enclosure for a UM18 and came up with pretty much the same volume. I was shooting for lower Qtc, set the power for 1000W and watched the xmax and I ended up a little under 7cuft I think.

In the end I went with the 4cuft flat-pack (they arrive today. Hoorah) which, if I remember right, allow 1500W for the driver before breaking past xmax at the really low frequencies (per Winisd).

Cary
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post #343 of 391 Old 06-12-2018, 12:09 PM
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1.5kW average power total output on both channels combined? Probably depending on your power line in your house that feeds the amp. I recommend a 30A 120V line for ample headroom. .
Or at least a 20amp. Yesterday, I finally tripped the 15amp breaker feeding my receiver and inuke 6k (non dsp) feeding two UM18s sealed, not ported. I was playing Bass I Love You and BIGGEST BASS DROP EVER! (EXTREME BASS TEST!!!). The second track had to be turned down even lower than Bass I Love You. Amp had red clipping light on almost constantly when the breaker was tripping.
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post #344 of 391 Old 06-12-2018, 02:43 PM
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Or at least a 20amp. Yesterday, I finally tripped the 15amp breaker feeding my receiver and inuke 6k (non dsp) feeding two UM18s sealed, not ported. I was playing Bass I Love You and BIGGEST BASS DROP EVER! (EXTREME BASS TEST!!!). The second track had to be turned down even lower than Bass I Love You. Amp had red clipping light on almost constantly when the breaker was tripping.
I call that "Tripping Balls!"
Who doesn't love watching their subs sound like pistons at full stroke playing infrasonic....

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post #345 of 391 Old 06-12-2018, 02:55 PM
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IMO I'd go with ported like aron7awol has said. Use round or slot port's and if you don't like it either remove and seal the round ports, just seal the ports in or cut off at roughly 7cuft for a sealed enclosure!
It's easier to start big and work your way down....

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post #346 of 391 Old 06-12-2018, 03:04 PM
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I was debating about running a dedicated 20 amp run, all other runs are already 20 amp. Since I'm renting I would have to pay to have it done so that I was covered insurance wise. Would that be enough for the 6kdsp to run 2 4cu 18HO without damaging the drivers and tripping the breakers? I wouldn't listen to it near reference levels except to show off for people seeing what they could do or if my neighbors irritated me with their music.
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post #347 of 391 Old 06-12-2018, 06:27 PM
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IMO I'd go with ported like aron7awol has said. Use round or slot port's and if you don't like it either remove and seal the round ports, just seal the ports in or cut off at roughly 7cuft for a sealed enclosure!
It's easier to start big and work your way down....

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It seems like he has his heart set on that 90dB @ 10Hz. I've been in that position, chasing 10Hz. It was the whole reason I went through the months of design and build of my huge ported subs. It wasn't until I finished that I realized that what I had been chasing really didn't end up being what I loved about the subs. I can burst 107dB @ 10Hz at my MLP, but what is so much more impressive is the 120dB+ from 12-25Hz. Luckily, by going ported and huge, I ended up with plenty of output in that entire range along with decent output at 10-11Hz, but to go sealed and give up so much from 15-25Hz just to have a relatively unimpactful amount of output at 10Hz I think is a mistake.

Ricci bursted 90dB @ 10Hz, but only a modest 99.6dB @ 16Hz, 104.9dB @ 20Hz, and 110.8dB @ 25Hz. With (only) dual subs and a decent amount of volume to play with, ported will mop the floor with sealed in that range.

Edit: I just modeled the UM18 in 7cf sealed and ported @ 15Hz, and they were equal at 11Hz, with ported obviously beating sealed handily above that.
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Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

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post #348 of 391 Old 06-13-2018, 04:54 AM
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
It seems like he has his heart set on that 90dB @ 10Hz. I've been in that position, chasing 10Hz.

Ricci bursted 90dB @ 10Hz, but only a modest 99.6dB @ 16Hz, 104.9dB @ 20Hz, and 110.8dB @ 25Hz. With (only) dual subs and a decent amount of volume to play with, ported will mop the floor with sealed in that range.
Thanks for your insights... I am not fixed on a 90dB @ 10Hz... think of it as a minimum performance ...like more than +90db @10hz clean cea2010 open field, so I can get a higher number and clean once in room.

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It was the whole reason I went through the months of design and build of my huge ported subs. It wasn't until I finished that I realized that what I had been chasing really didn't end up being what I loved about the subs. I can burst 107dB @ 10Hz at my MLP, but what is so much more impressive is the 120dB+ from 12-25Hz. Luckily, by going ported and huge, I ended up with plenty of output in that entire range along with decent output at 10-11Hz, but to go sealed and give up so much from 15-25Hz just to have a relatively unimpactful amount of output at 10Hz I think is a mistake.


Edit: I just modeled the UM18 in 7cf sealed and ported @ 15Hz, and they were equal at 11Hz, with ported obviously beating sealed handily above that.

I just don't have the skills and knowledge to build a ported box so I am looking for the common and somewhat easy stuff around... flat packs combos at reasonable prices like PE plus the iNukes which is why I am posting here... to see how much I can get with UM 18 + iNukes as I was also considering Rtyhtmik F18 CI Kit.

The easiest for me is to build a sealed box as the skills needed and chance to do it wrong is reduced at good bracing and no leaks and make sure you have enough power down to 10hz without exceeding Xmax.

May be the 7cuf can do the trick... or finding a ported design tuned to low 1X hz ready to assemble (or close) that can fit my space as mentioned before... any help or ideas?

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post #349 of 391 Old 06-13-2018, 07:40 AM
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Ported isn't rocket science...but I understand the added complexity may feel a little daunting at first. I have to agree with the few others that have already suggested, but with running nly: two 18's, ported may certainly be the better route. If the driver count is upped to 4+, sealed can get you everything you need, but the rule's always apply: No replacement for displacement....
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post #350 of 391 Old 06-13-2018, 02:59 PM
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I just don't have the skills and knowledge to build a ported box so I am looking for the common and somewhat easy stuff around... flat packs combos at reasonable prices like PE plus the iNukes which is why I am posting here... to see how much I can get with UM 18 + iNukes as I was also considering Rtyhtmik F18 CI Kit.

The easiest for me is to build a sealed box as the skills needed and chance to do it wrong is reduced at good bracing and no leaks and make sure you have enough power down to 10hz without exceeding Xmax.

May be the 7cuf can do the trick... or finding a ported design tuned to low 1X hz ready to assemble (or close) that can fit my space as mentioned before... any help or ideas?
If you are saying that you want a flatpack, then are you basically deciding between the 4cf sealed from PE or something like the Stonehenge from DIYSG?

A quick model of those two options has them tied at ~12.5Hz. I'd still, with limited space and only 2 subs, much prefer a pair of Stonehenges. The 4-6dB advantage the Stonehenges will have in the 15-35Hz range you're really going to need. Before you start chasing below 12.5Hz, you better make sure you have the output you need above that first, given the fact that you don't have room for more subs.
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Ok so I have a situation. It appears my wife is very sensitive to frequencies under 20hz. At first I thought it was just the volume in general with the explosions but then I played a couple sinewaves of 15 and 10hz once she said it was the rumble parts that really impacted her. I need to setup a filter so I can make sure that stuff under 20hz isn't played. Now I know there's a default HP of 20hz on the amp but I can still play lower sine waves at a regular volume easily. Is there a way to make a filter I can toggle when she's going to watch movies with me?
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post #352 of 391 Old 07-12-2018, 04:28 AM
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The quick and easy thing I think (but maybe not optimal) would be to set your mains to Large and turn off the sub(s). Depending on what your mains are, this might not be bad.


No filter is going to be a brick wall with the frequencies so if you do a HPF with the nuke, you'll have to set it somewhere above 20Hz so that the sub 20Hz stuff is attenuated enough to make her comfortable.
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post #353 of 391 Old 07-27-2018, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
OK, where my sealed guys at?

If you set a 20Hz high shelf filter at 6dB/octave to -2.5dB, you can make the response of the nuke flat to 10Hz:

Green: Amp response with no EQ into 4 ohm load -starts rolling off at 42Hz, 1dB down @15.7Hz, 3dB down @6.6Hz
White: Low end extender curve into same load -starts rolling off at 9.6Hz, 1dB down @6.1Hz, 3dB down @3.2Hz

For those of you sealed guys with a more advanced skill set who have measured the rolloff of their signal chain with loopbacks in REW and need to compensate for the cumulative rolloff of your components or of just your AVR's sub output, I came up with a few options to bring back up the ULF:

Yellow: Flat amp response
Purple: 20Hz, 6dB/octave high shelf at -4dB
Red: 20Hz, 6dB/octave high shelf at -6dB
Teal: 20Hz, 6dB/octave high shelf at -10dB
Grey: 20Hz, 6dB/octave high shelf at -12dB
Green: 20Hz, 12dB/octave high shelf at -10dB

For the above rolloff boosters, I'd recommend testing with worst case scenario content (ULF) and ease up the level while monitoring excursion just to make sure you're not going to put yourself in a dangerous situation with your drivers. As with the HPF cheats, the low shelf attenuation will raise the noise floor and you will have to re-calibrate your sub level. I recommend doing that by using the front knobs on the amp (or worst case the gain in the DSP) as opposed to maxing out your AVR trim as this has shown problems with clipping strong re-directed bass signals in all of the AVR's that I've tested.
This is awesome. I picked the green setting. Do I now have to add db’s of gain in the crossover/filter tab to compensate for the -10 db’s in the high shelf filter? I should mention I’m running dual sealed uxl 18’s.
Also what ‘Qual’ setting do I pick?

JVC DLA-X750R projector, Panasonic DP-UB820 4k Bluray player, Anthem MRX-720 receiver, 5.1.4 Atmos, Klipsch Reference II Speakers, Dual Sealed 18” UXL Subwoofers - Inuke 6000dsp Sub amp, Buttkicker LFE, Vizio P-65 TV.
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post #354 of 391 Old 07-30-2018, 07:53 AM
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FWIW, it would appear Berry has decided to discontinue the nu6000? BHP is at least showing that... very interesting, but I was always curious how Berry could make any money at the pricepoint-per-watt those were at.
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post #355 of 391 Old 07-30-2018, 09:38 AM
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All of the iNukes are going away and being replaced by the NX series.
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post #356 of 391 Old 07-30-2018, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moosifee View Post
All of the iNukes are going away and being replaced by the NX series.
Have any additional info on those?

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post #357 of 391 Old 07-30-2018, 10:29 AM
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post #358 of 391 Old 09-28-2018, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cr500guy View Post
This is awesome. I picked the green setting. Do I now have to add db’s of gain in the crossover/filter tab to compensate for the -10 db’s in the high shelf filter? I should mention I’m running dual sealed uxl 18’s.
Also what ‘Qual’ setting do I pick?
What were your final settings?

Equipment List: Benq W6000, Darbee DVP-5000S Video Processor, JKP Affinity 100 inch 16x9 .9 gain reference screen, Marantz SR7013 Receiver, 3-Marantz Ma700 and 2-Ma6100 monoblocks, 7.4.2 Atmos, B&W Nautilus 805 front speakers, B&W Nautilus HTM2 center speaker, Volt 6 Atmos Speakers, Mirage HDT-R side speakers, Jamo THX surround one rear speakers, 2 PSA S3600I'S, and 2 UM18-22/iNUKE6000DSP DIY subs.
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post #359 of 391 Old 09-29-2018, 08:43 AM
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I have two sealed UM18-22’s driven by an inuke 6000dsp. One of the speakon connections on the inuke is flakey (intermittent connection follows the connector on the inuke, not the speaker cable or sub or inputs).

If I lock the speakon in place, I get no signal. I have to back it off like an 1/8th of a turn, and if it moves at all I have to reposition it to get “sub2” back.

Anyone else had this problem with inuke or other speakon connections? My inuke is fan modified, so I can’t send it for warranty. Thanks.
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post #360 of 391 Old 09-30-2018, 11:25 AM
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Did you swap Sub 1 and Sub 2 cables at the iNuke?

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