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post #61 of 391 Old 08-18-2017, 07:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post


EDIT:...That's not counting running the LFE on the AVR at +12db....... I am starting to realize I might have a small bass craving I am tryin to satiate here.
If you are running the LFE on your AVR at +12dB then you are likely clipping the signal from the very get-go, and not just lightly clipping it, you are murdering it right now.

This sounds like a very simple case. You have a LOAD problem. It's ok, it happens to us all at some point.

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You simply need to multiply you setup by a magnitude or two, including power. It will increase the system efficiency, low-end extension, and lower distortion....in more ways than one. At least with your AVR, if you play anywhere near reference you will want to calibrate your subwoofer trim to sit somewhere around -7 +/- 3dB if you can manage. This will keep you safe from clipping the signal before it even hits your minidsp.

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post #62 of 391 Old 08-18-2017, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
...
John, when I post things like this and you feel the need to come in behind me and post your guess as to what the average power is I really don't have a problem with that. Just don't say things like I'm out of control. That's dismissive and disrespectful and I've never had a problem with you that warrants that.
...

you asked me how to do it. i shared how it could be done.


none of this has anything to do with disrespect (i don't find any of that necessary). for the past several years, engineers on audio forums across the internet (including this one) have been questioning behringer's claims, with the most polite comments simply referring to them as "marketing department numbers" while the more serious and technically sophisticated have flat out called them "b.s." behringer was at 6000 watts and then you came in and topped it with 6500 watts. was my reaction. i've said in the past behringer has "specs gone wild", so i needed something that was out past that. "totally out of control" is what came to mind. this is only with respect to the way they spec the amp, not the amps themselves (which are great for what they are).


the only reason that i care about the "peak watts" thing is the enormous confusion that this is all going to create for folks. there are lots of guys who will be trying to figure out how much amp they need and/or how much amp their driver in a box can handle and if they enter 6500 watts for two channels of an inuke, they are going to be all confused (either thinking that they will have an output level that they won't, or that they are going to destroy their drivers with their 6500 watt amp, neither of which is the case). some guys will even be wondering how they are going to run a 6500 "peak watt" amp on a 20 amp line (the question will come as: 20a*120v only gets you 2400 watts; do i need a 6500w/120v = 54 amp line!?).
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post #63 of 391 Old 08-18-2017, 09:51 AM
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this is a continuation from post 59.

curiosity got to me, so i calculated the actual watts in the lower half of the wave that we were discussing.





recall that the yellow sine wave would have had a peak power of 1575 watts. from the previous note:


the power across the 1/2 cycle is peak volts * 0.707 to get rms volts. then v^2/ohms to get power over the half wave.
in this case, 128v * 0.707 = 90.5v
90.5v^2 / 5.2 = 1575 watts



the blue bars approximate far more accurately the blue measured curve than the yellow sine wave.


i simply measure the height of each blue bar, then normalize it against the height of the yellow sine curve.


the yellow sine curve is the top row...1575 watts.


the rms is just as it sounds. first each (normalized) term is squared, then the column is averaged. finally, the square root of the average is taken. i called it root avg" in the spreadsheet. that is the rms (root mean squared).





if i didn't flub any of the maths, this suggests that the power across the half wave interval under examination is 1105 watts, which is 70.2% of the value had all the blue bars extended fully to the yellow line (i.e. had the wave been a perfect sine wave).


so thus falls further the power of the behringer amp. 1105 watts. hhmm...that almost sounds like a familiar number.


going back to check notnyt's tests now...


edit forthcoming.


...continuing...

notnyt's test results of the amp.
notnyt: 2356 watts two channels at 4.4 ohms
shreds measurement w/ltd02 geometric calculation using eyeball/msword/excel (lol): ~2*1105 = 2210 watts two channels driven 5.2 ohms


seems remarkably close given the differences in setup/content/analysis etc.


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post #64 of 391 Old 08-18-2017, 10:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
If you are running the LFE on your AVR at +12dB then you are likely clipping the signal from the very get-go, and not just lightly clipping it, you are murdering it right now.

This sounds like a very simple case. You have a LOAD problem. It's ok, it happens to us all at some point.

Lack
Of
Acceptable
Displacement

You simply need to multiply you setup by a magnitude or two, including power. It will increase the system efficiency, low-end extension, and lower distortion....in more ways than one. At least with your AVR, if you play anywhere near reference you will want to calibrate your subwoofer trim to sit somewhere around -7 +/- 3dB if you can manage. This will keep you safe from clipping the signal before it even hits your minidsp.

Yep. This 1,000%.

This is why many of us here have a dozen 18's in their HT rooms.

One single sealed 18 is only going to get you so far.
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post #65 of 391 Old 08-18-2017, 12:18 PM
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post #66 of 391 Old 08-18-2017, 04:53 PM
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I tried flipping my 3kdsp to 180 phase. It certainly smoothed out the area right above the crossover.

Black line sub only
Red line sub and center 0 phase
Blue line sub and center 180 phase

I tried multiple distances with both phases and the 180 was clearly the best. I'll do more testing but this could be worth its own thread.


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post #67 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 07:03 AM
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Got up early and did some more testing. I'm not sure what to make of this. Flipping the phase 180 on the inuke produces the best response in REW, but makes audyssey set the distance 2 feet further than the actual distance. If I leave the phase at 0, audyssey sets the distance exactly to the actual tape measure distance.

My inuke is wired with an RCA from the AVR, to a RCA to XLR adapter. I'm not sure if that means my inuke is reversed phase or not, based on what was posted here earlier. I can't make sense of all this electrical discussion.

Audyssey doesn't seem to care about the phase of the sub. Other speakers it will give a warning about out of phase, but not for the sub. I'm thinking in my case and probably most others, that the inuke is in phase with a connection like mine, based on the distance results, even though I see a slightly better result with switching 180. The graph I posted above did not show the best I could do with 0 phase.

This graph shows the difference between 0 phase with the tape measure distance vs 180 phase with a distance of 2 feet added to the actual distance.
blue= 180 phase
red = 0 phase (actual tape measure distance)

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post #68 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
Got up early and did some more testing. I'm not sure what to make of this. Flipping the phase 180 on the intake produces the best response in REW but makes Audyssey set the distance 2 feet further than the actual distance. If I leave the phase at 0, Audyssey sets the distance exactly to the actual tape measure distance.

My nuke is wired with an RCA from the AVR, to an RCA to XLR adapter. I'm not sure if that means my nuke is reversed phase or not, based on what was posted here earlier. I can't make sense of all this electrical discussion.

Audyssey doesn't seem to care about the phase of the sub. Other speakers, it will give a warning about out of phase, but not for the sub. I'm thinking in my case and probably most others, that the inuke is in phase with a connection like mine, based on the distance results, even though I see a slightly better result with switching 180. The graph I posted above did not show the best I could do with 0 phase.

This graph shows the difference between 0 phase with the tape measure distance vs 180 phase with a distance of 2 feet added to the actual distance.
blue= 180 phase
red = 0 phase (actual tape measure distance)
If you are using the amplifier inside your AVR to power your mains the Inuke will be out of phase weather connected using RCA to XLR or XLR to XLR. The current XLR standard is the reverse of the polarity that RCA uses.

You can check phase using REW and look at the impulse response. You have to measure 1 speaker at a time though so it can be kind a hassle.

And Audyess changing the sub distance when you change polarity as it changes the phase/polarity. That makes sense as they are all interconnection to get a smooth FR and with what Audyssey does.

As far as Audyessy not giving the phase error for subwoofers. I am pretty sure mine did, but it has been a while since I ran Audyessy and I have tried too many different combos so it is hard to remember which did what. But from what I remember is what caused me to look into it as I was getting the out of phase error from Audyessy.

It may also depend on the Audyessy version. I know for sure the XT32 in the 7702 gives me the out of phase error and I think that the Marantz 5010 did also but I am not positive on that. I could hook the 5010 up try it sometime. But that is a lot of work

Which version of Audyssey do you have? I guess I can run it quick since I do not have to do a full calibration. I'll do it and update this after I do. Probably more confusion coming

Edit: Update it appears Audyessy does not detect polarity/phase for the subwoofer. It only gives me the out of phase error when using XLR from my Marantz 7702 to my Sunfire amp to power my mains. Using RCA from the 7702 to RCA on the Sunfire does not give the out of phase error so Audyessy only detects polarity for the main speakers.

So for people using Inukes for the mains and subs Audyessy will give them the out of polarity error also I am assuming since the XLR standard is reverse. Can anyone verify this? I am also assuming this may be why people over the years report getting the out of phase error and check wiring and find that is all correct, I would guess many were using XLR connections or RCA to XLR.

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post #69 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 09:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
none of this has anything to do with disrespect (i don't find any of that necessary).
Yeah, my bad. Hey John this resolution of a potato RMS calculation thing is out of control. You just said the power was 3240, 3150, 2700 and 2210W.

6482.32Wpk is a good enough showing.
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post #70 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 09:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post


not so pretty
Exactly. This amp is not the most linear, highest fidelity that I've tested. I'll try and get some other examples of that up today or tomorrow.
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post #71 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 09:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
I tried flipping my 3kdsp to 180 phase. It certainly smoothed out the area right above the crossover.

Black line sub only
Red line sub and center 0 phase
Blue line sub and center 180 phase

I tried multiple distances with both phases and the 180 was clearly the best. I'll do more testing but this could be worth its own thread.


This is simple, you don't need a huge discussion about it IMO. The proof is here ^^^
Use the reversed polarity, the crossover point never lies. Don't let auto EQ's confuse you, they are not as smart as people.
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post #72 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 09:48 AM
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The auto eq is just setting the distance based on time delay. This doesn't mean it won't interact with your mains poorly, regardless of if the phase is correct or not. The best way to determine if your phase is correct is to look at your impulse response. The best way to ensure the crossover region is smooth is to adjust the delay between your subs and main by setting the sub distance in your avr.
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post #73 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 10:33 AM
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I have basic multi EQ. I am running all speakers off the AVR and subs/transducer off inukes.

I suggested a separate thread to alert the AVS members about the inuke polarity. I'm guessing there are alot of people who aren't following this thread that would benefit from knowing about this issue. Plus it might help to not clutter up this thread with two separate discussions, which both are very interesting and have value.

After about 100 sweeps, changing every variable possible including room location, there is no doubt that reversing the phase gives me better results.
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post #74 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 11:00 AM
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Interesting note about the polarity and noisy data - I use my iNuke for Crowsons and never took the time to optimize the delay and maximize the tactile effect, but I will try to take some time to see what I can find out. After adding the six caps the low frequency response seemed much better without needing any DSP, but I never measured the signal to confirm that the frequency response was similar to MadHek. If you decide to replace any caps please post the results.

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post #75 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 11:29 AM
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That is excellent info.......


I got the inuke1000dsp cheap from my brother, he was using it to power some big 15 inch JBL`s, he said it lacked headroom,was noisy and did not sound right.......he is not near as far down the rabbit hole...he has no REW or mic or room correction going.


The phase issue and the noise issue could very well be exactly what he was hearing, he does have a good ear.


I am using it for a single sub bridged, so I guess just the phase issue would be my only concern with it in that application.

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post #76 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unretarded View Post
I am using it for a single sub bridged, so I guess just the phase issue would be my only concern with it in that application.
Seems more likely that your bigger issues are the +12 AVR and + 16 gain settings you mentioned previously, because you're probably clipping signals in every stage of the signal chain. try to start over with zero DSP gain, max out the front panel knobs on the amp, and see where that puts your AVR trim after calibration. Then report back.
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post #77 of 391 Old 08-19-2017, 11:04 PM
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@Shreds what are you using to probe the bridged output?
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post #78 of 391 Old 08-20-2017, 06:01 AM
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I picked up another NU6000 to power a pair of B215XL speakers used for our soccer team. Noticed this NU6000 was much quieter than my other two NU6000 and NU6000DSP. But ended up having to return the amp. Channel B kept cutting out for a split second. Did not have the system turned up very loud and only happened on channel B, even when I switched inputs and switched speakers.
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post #79 of 391 Old 08-20-2017, 01:41 PM
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Very interesting topic as I may have a phase issue. This is my setup:

7702MKII are all RCA outs to outboard amps and Inukes for subs. I use RCA to 1/4 adapters to the Inuke, then XLR Inuke out to subs. Would this cause the subs be out of phase?

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post #80 of 391 Old 08-21-2017, 06:42 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vitod View Post
then XLR Inuke out to subs.
Not totally sure what you mean here but yeah, I think you will probably be better off reversing the polarity of the amp output or switching pins 2 and 3 on the XLR. I take it you don't have a way to measure?
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post #81 of 391 Old 08-21-2017, 06:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Arrow Wacky NU6000DSP Waveforms...

When the amp was driven close to max power at around 80Hz and above, you can see a ripple effect in the waveform probably from the PSU.


From the oscillating output, it affects how the high frequencies look. I know that it's too high of a frequency to hear but this is just not linear reproduction:


The clip lights were not accurate on this amp which is unusual in my experience. I recorded the waveforms of a few different frequencies right at the point where the clip light starts to come on. This was with no limiter engaged:
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post #82 of 391 Old 08-21-2017, 07:06 AM
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The clip lights are based on the limiter. The limiter at 0 is set slightly above the normal max output of the amp. You cannot disable it.

What are you using for bridged output probing?
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post #83 of 391 Old 08-21-2017, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The clip lights are based on the limiter. The limiter at 0 is set slightly above the normal max output of the amp. You cannot disable it.

What are you using for bridged output probing?
3rd time you asked that specific question, I suspect he will never answer.

Just like Dave years ago when prodded for an .MDAT file... he claimed he didn't know what it was, and then he faxed results from a measurement PC to a Mac... etc etc.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #84 of 391 Old 08-21-2017, 07:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Not totally sure what you mean here but yeah, I think you will probably be better off reversing the polarity of the amp output or switching pins 2 and 3 on the XLR. I take it you don't have a way to measure?
My bad. Meant to say, Inuke Speakon to sub.
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post #85 of 391 Old 08-22-2017, 11:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Arrow NU6000DSP Frequency Response...


Red: Response into an 8 ohm load -3dB @7.8Hz
Blue: Response into a 4 ohm load -3dB @6.6Hz
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post #86 of 391 Old 08-22-2017, 11:29 AM
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Thats not bad at 4 ohms........especially considering what 90% of the public is using them for.

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post #87 of 391 Old 08-22-2017, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Arrow High Pass Filters/Frequency Lowering Cheat...


Here are a few examples of the options available side by side, all set at 20Hz.

Green: ............ 12dB/octave Butterworth ........ -3dB @21.7Hz
Dark Blue: ..... 12dB/octave Bessel .................... -3dB @27.3Hz
Purple: ........... 12dB/octave Linkwitz-Riley ....... -3dB @32.9Hz
Light Blue: ..... 24dB/octave Butterworth ......... -3dB @21Hz

OK, where my ported guys at for lowering the HPF...

All of the above HP filters were set to 20Hz, 12dB/octave, butterworth.

White: Has no high shelf filter -------------3dB down @21.5Hz
Dark Blue: ... -3dB high shelf at 20Hz ------3dB down @18.5Hz
Green: .......... -6dB high shelf at 20Hz ------3dB down @16.2Hz
Light Blue: ... -9dB high shelf at 20Hz ------3dB down @14.2Hz
Red: .............. -12dB high shelf at 20Hz -----3dB down @12.5Hz
Purple: ........ -15dB high shelf at 20Hz -----3dB down @11.2Hz

-All of the above high shelf filters were set to 12dB/octave

I'll infer the -3dB points for the other dB settings based on what I measured for the filters at 12dB/octave:




All of the above HP filters were set to 20Hz, 24dB/octave, butterworth.

Green: Has no high shelf filter --------- 3dB down @21.2Hz
Blue: ........ -3dB high shelf at 20Hz ----- 3dB down @19.7Hz
Purple: ... -6dB high shelf at 20Hz ----- 3dB down @18.7Hz
Red: ........ -12dB high shelf at 20Hz ---- 3dB down @17.7Hz
White: ... -15dB high shelf at 20Hz ---- 3dB down @17.5Hz

-All of the above high shelf filters were set to 24dB/octave

All of the above measurements were taken while the amp was connected to a 4 ohm load as that's what most will be using. The sweeps were all level matched so if you're going to use the more extreme low shelf cuts, be aware that this will raise your noise floor and you will need to re-calibrate your gain stages.
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Last edited by Shreds; 11-07-2017 at 08:49 PM.
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post #88 of 391 Old 08-23-2017, 06:20 AM
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Great work @Shreds . It is very much appreciated.

I wonder if this phase issue also effects the 3000dsp? I always have dips at the crossover after running audyssey and flipping the phase would "fix" it. I will try running Audyssey with the phase already at 180 and see what the results are.


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post #89 of 391 Old 08-23-2017, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post

OK, where my ported guys at for lowering the HPF...

All of the above HP filters were set to 20Hz, 12dB/octave, butterworth.

White: Has no high shelf filter -------------3dB down @21.5Hz
Dark Blue: ... -3dB high shelf at 20Hz ------3dB down @18.5Hz
Green: .......... -6dB high shelf at 20Hz ------3dB down @16.2Hz
Light Blue: ... -9dB high shelf at 20Hz ------3dB down @14.2Hz
Red: .............. -12dB high shelf at 20Hz -----3dB down @12.5Hz
Purple: ........ -15dB high shelf at 20Hz -----3dB down @11.2Hz

-All of the above high shelf filters were set to 12dB/octave






All of the above measurements were taken while the amp was connected to a 4 ohm load as that's what most will be using. The sweeps were all level matched so if you're going to use the more extreme low shelf cuts, be aware that this will raise your noise floor and you will need to re-calibrate your gain stages.

Good work! I remember this workaround being debated/challenged in other threads.


Could you also show us -4dB and -5dB (maybe even -7dB and -8dB) high shelf filters at 20Hz? Thanks.

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post #90 of 391 Old 08-23-2017, 05:46 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751 View Post
I wonder if this phase issue also effects the 3000dsp? I always have dips at the crossover after running audyssey and flipping the phase would "fix" it. I will try running Audyssey with the phase already at 180 and see what the results are.
Since Brian O. noticed the phase being reversed when he tested the nuke12k, I'd guess that it's the same with all of the nukes with bridged outputs. So if you're bridging the 3k, I'd bet the polarity is reversed but who knows if the separate stereo channels are in phase. Hold on, I have an idea about a test that you guys can do...
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