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post #91 of 224 Old 10-15-2017, 02:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
I'm definitely going to do the same, but I'm still curious, how much of a difference did it make for you?
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post #92 of 224 Old 10-15-2017, 06:09 PM
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Hey Nal, I'm going to just bring this over here to avoid thread-jacking...

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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Wow man,that little .wav file was genious !! Worked like a charm because with it you have the whole signal chain included, and you were right, the NU6K DSP is reverse phase,
I just put it on a loop, and walked around and cheked the drivers, so easy to confirm. Thanks man, that will come in handy later on

Speaking of: you said i would not reach x-max, because i have 4 drivers on one amp. But how would that compare:

1. One amp on one cab with two drivers.
2. One amp on two cabs with 4 drivers.
Well you already know what's up with one nu6000 on 4 drivers. 1 amp on 2 drivers with be a pretty good match. You can dump the whole amp into each cab and you don't have to worry about over-excursion because the size of your enclosure will keep you safe.

Again, disclaimer: Don't play low frequency synthetic tones for extended periods of time at full output or you'll damage your coils (be careful with scenes like F-ing Irene when approaching max output). AND maintain proper gain structure so that you don't end up sending clipped signal to your drivers.

You can't hurt anything with too much amp as long as you properly calibrate your system and know it's limits. Having headroom for ULF transients is very important for full bandwidth sealed systems as they are very demanding. The inuke amps don't have an impressive capacitor reservoir which is why I think you could benefit from running both amps.

Hook both amps up and demo the dragon crash scene in HTTYD if you want to freak out. Ease up the volume so you don't clip.
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post #93 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Hey Nal, I'm going to just bring this over here to avoid thread-jacking...



Well you already know what's up with one nu6000 on 4 drivers. 1 amp on 2 drivers with be a pretty good match. You can dump the whole amp into each cab and you don't have to worry about over-excursion because the size of your enclosure will keep you safe.

Again, disclaimer: Don't play low frequency synthetic tones for extended periods of time at full output or you'll damage your coils (be careful with scenes like F-ing Irene when approaching max output). AND maintain proper gain structure so that you don't end up sending clipped signal to your drivers.

You can't hurt anything with too much amp as long as you properly calibrate your system and know it's limits. Having headroom for ULF transients is very important for full bandwidth sealed systems as they are very demanding. The inuke amps don't have an impressive capacitor reservoir which is why I think you could benefit from running both amps.

Hook both amps up and demo the dragon crash scene in HTTYD if you want to freak out. Ease up the volume so you don't clip.
Understood. How do you make sure you have proper gain structure? Is there a guide for this? Or is it enough to open the Inuke software and pay attension to the input/output clip lights.

Also i tried a close mic measurement. I tried it with the mic in the opening between endplates and driver, top and bottom one, with the plate off(one inch from driver) and also the 90 degree and 0 degree file for the Umik-1, and they all measure pretty much exactly the same.

Seems i do not have that much room gain. Until below 20 hz that is. Is this normal?

And i did a new eq round, bottom pic.



And a new comp sweep. Looks a little smoother than the old one(no MBM). And still one amp.


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post #94 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 06:27 AM
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I ran a similar set up for nearly 20 years wih (4) dynaudio 30W100s. I still have them and will be using them with a virtual pupe organ (VPI) that I'm putting together.

One thing to remember with this type of configuration is that the drivers will hit xmax a bit sooner since gravity is pulling down on the drivers when they are installed horizontally. They are very easy to build though!

I'm in the process of building some subs for a HT system and will likely do it in a way that the drivers are vertical. Previously I had my tubes mounted horizontally above my built-ins which meant the drivers were vertical.
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post #95 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Understood. How do you make sure you have proper gain structure? Is there a guide for this? Or is it enough to open the Inuke software and pay attension to the input/output clip lights.
Actually I must refer you to one of shreds tutorials on gain structure to answer that. What’s key here is the commentary at the end:^}.
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post #96 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Hook both amps up and demo the dragon crash scene in HTTYD if you want to freak out. Ease up the volume so you don't clip.
Shreds, what scene is this? I'd like to fire it up, i haven't ever used it as a test before.
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post #97 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Understood. How do you make sure you have proper gain structure? Is there a guide for this? Or is it enough to open the Inuke software and pay attension to the input/output clip lights.

Seems i do not have that much room gain. Until below 20 hz that is. Is this normal?
Gain structure is maximizing the dynamic range of your signal. Keeping the signal as high as possible just before it clips so that your noise floor is as low as possible. You have to read the manuals for your signal chain and make sure you're not feeding a component that accepts a maximum voltage of say 5V more than that or you will have a clipped signal after that. Most AVR's will clip the sub out when playing movies with strong re-directed bass if you bump the trim hot with the MVL at reference. Not boosting too much with low shelves. Things like that if avoided will keep your signal clean. If your signal chain clips the signal anywhere, you can hear this effect. It's like hooking up a compressor to your chain and your tight, punchy dynamics will get squashed.

You don't have a tremendous amount of room gain like some other lucky people here but it's nothing that abnormal. If you can seal your main room off with a wall and beefy door this will most likely boost the gain. Generally, when taking a close mic measurement, it's best to do it with a full range signal if you want to collect the best data of what your sub is actually doing. But when I don't feel like doing that, it's OK to just raise the x-over point of the AVR as high as possible and set the graph to that point.

How much are you boosting your low shelf? Looks like ~15dB of boost. Just be aware that if you play a scene with strong re-directed bass at those low frequencies 15dB of boost is going to demand extreme amounts of power from your amp at reference levels. If you take a scene that would normally put out 200W and give it 15dB boost it would require the amp to produce 6325W for example. And if your amp isn't capable, it will go into clipping.
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post #98 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 02:20 PM
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Shreds, what scene is this? I'd like to fire it up, i haven't ever used it as a test before.
Dragon crash at the end of the movie. It ain't no joke, be careful especially if your small signal chain has little to no rolloff.
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post #99 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 02:26 PM
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Dragon Crash at the end of HTTYD. A truly devastating scene, aka a Surround Dimpler, as its a wide bandwidth effects scene with strong content at 2hz. Actually, play the whole chapter. It’s a treat.
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post #100 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 02:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Gain structure is maximizing the dynamic range of your signal. Keeping the signal as high as possible just before it clips so that your noise floor is as low as possible. You have to read the manuals for your signal chain and make sure you're not feeding a component that accepts a maximum voltage of say 5V more than that or you will have a clipped signal after that. Most AVR's will clip the sub out when playing movies with strong re-directed bass if you bump the trim hot with the MVL at reference. Not boosting too much with low shelves. Things like that if avoided will keep your signal clean. If your signal chain clips the signal anywhere, you can hear this effect. It's like hooking up a compressor to your chain and your tight, punchy dynamics will get squashed.

You don't have a tremendous amount of room gain like some other lucky people here but it's nothing that abnormal. If you can seal your main room off with a wall and beefy door this will most likely boost the gain. Generally, when taking a close mic measurement, it's best to do it with a full range signal if you want to collect the best data of what your sub is actually doing. But when I don't feel like doing that, it's OK to just raise the x-over point of the AVR as high as possible and set the graph to that point.

How much are you boosting your low shelf? Looks like ~15dB of boost. Just be aware that if you play a scene with strong re-directed bass at those low frequencies 15dB of boost is going to demand extreme amounts of power from your amp at reference levels. If you take a scene that would normally put out 200W and give it 15dB boost it would require the amp to produce 6325W for example. And if your amp isn't capable, it will go into clipping.
Makes sense. I found this over at the nu6000 thread you started:

Quote:
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Maximum clean input before clipping is 6.8Vpk - 4.72Vrms (unbalanced). Volume controls are detented with 20 clicks. A lot of AVR's sub outputs are rated at 1.2Vrms unbalanced and I tested to see if the amp could be driven to maximum output with this signal and it can with the volumes turned up 15 clicks.
This is from my Denon AVR 7200 manual, i assume that 1.2 volt rated output is the same you’re talking about?



And since the quote above says over 4 volt max input on the NU6K, I guess my 2 volt inn/4 volt out setting on the Minidsp is ok?



So i guess my gain structure is ok?

Yes i am using quite a bit of low shelf, but it seems to be ok with the volume levels i use, which is -20 dB for movie watching. My sub channel gain is -3 on the Denon, on minidsp it is 0 in/ -15 out, and NU6K has gains at 0(max).

On the last of the comp sweep i hear a «klacking» sound in the start of the sweep, but i assume this is the amp clipping, and NOT the drivers bottoming out? Sounds like what you had in the dually mammoth video.

And thanks you for all the help, i really appreciate it, man

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post #101 of 224 Old 10-16-2017, 07:22 PM
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Let's take your AVR's 1.2V out unbalanced for an example... Let's say that you play a wide bandwidth intensive ULF scene like HTTYD. Let's say for that scene, it's sending out 1V of signal in the bandwidth where your low shelf boost is set. 1V plus 15dB outputs 5.62V unbalanced. This is 11.24V balanced.

Since the mini can only output 2V unbalanced, it will either aggressively compress the signal or clip the hell out of it on it's output. So there is a good chance that with some scenes you will feed your amp a clipped signal unless you attenuate your mini's output in the DSP to your nuke but this will raise your noise floor and decrease dynamic range. Make sense? This is why I suggested with your REW graphs that you pull down the peaks before applying your low shelf boost so that you won't have to boost that much.
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post #102 of 224 Old 10-17-2017, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Let's take your AVR's 1.2V out unbalanced for an example... Let's say that you play a wide bandwidth intensive ULF scene like HTTYD. Let's say for that scene, it's sending out 1V of signal in the bandwidth where your low shelf boost is set. 1V plus 15dB outputs 5.62V unbalanced. This is 11.24V balanced.
You’re talking reference level on AVR now? MV 0 dB, and sub channel level 0 ?

I use MV @ -20 and sub channel level @-3, so that is sub level -23 below reference, right ?

Quote:
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Since the mini can only output 2V unbalanced, it will either aggressively compress the signal or clip the hell out of it on it's output. So there is a good chance that with some scenes you will feed your amp a clipped signal unless you attenuate your mini's output in the DSP to your nuke but this will raise your noise floor and decrease dynamic range. Make sense? This is why I suggested with your REW graphs that you pull down the peaks before applying your low shelf boost so that you won't have to boost that much.
I am running balanced out from MINIDSP, so that is 4 volts, right? PS: i have the minidsp balanced version.

I am going to try and measure output from AVR and MINIDSP tomorrow to see where i stand.

Is there a better way of doing DSP: in the Mindsp or the Inuke ?

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post #103 of 224 Old 10-17-2017, 04:00 PM
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^I have the same question. I have 2 sealed boxes, one with a Ultimax 18, the other with 4 Infinity 1262's. Both wired to 4 ohms.

I'm running unbalanced out of my Denon to a MiniDSP 2x4 balanced, and balanced out of the MiniDSP with the jumper on the output set to 4VRMS. I have a low shelf filter that is at 40hz with a gain of +15db and a Q of .9

I have limited to my volume on the AVR to 70 which is apparently -10db or so it tells me when I switch the volume from 0-98 to the -78.9 - 18 volume setting.

I watched this scene with my volume at max on my AVR, with the MiniDSP OUTPUT section sync'd up and it never redlined. The bridged Crown XLS2000's also never redlined, but got darned close a time or two.

Does this mean I am NOT compressing things and that I've maximized the gain structure, or no?

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post #104 of 224 Old 10-18-2017, 09:18 AM - Thread Starter
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More measurements. So i followed the guidelines in Austinjerry REW guide to measure output from both the AVR and then from MiniDSP.

MV @ 0 dB, speakers as small, lfe channel @ 0dB, no Audyssey, via HDMI and channel 4 (LFE), and a 60 hz sinustone @-3 dbfs.
This is voltage from AVR sub pre-out.



Right at 1.8V, within Minidsp’s 2V.

Here is after mindsp, but it’s unbalanced as i didn’t know how to connect balanced to measure.
Both MV 0 and -20 which is what i use.



And with Audyssey+DEQ both 60hz and 10 hz. Minidsp output level adjusted.



And finally with my 15db LS



Well within minidsp 2 volt max unbalanced output. Or am i doing something wrong?


Also did a signal chain roll-off test. Connected the good ol Behringer UCA-202, calibrated it and run a loopback measurement to get a baseline. Then measured after AVR, and the MINIDSP.
Pretty much flat to 10hz, and down ~5 db at 3 hz. Not that bad.




However, since i don’t listen at MV 0, i tried again to lower volume to -20 db, and the the roll-off is almost gone. Go figure.


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post #105 of 224 Old 10-18-2017, 05:41 PM
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Respect for doing all the work but here's the thing. You're setting up sub out stage using 2 channels of re-directed bass. In real world content there are more than 2 channels of re-directed bass. For example:



Compare the bottom 2 channels of 0dBFS at 30Hz being re-directed with a real movie scene (both at the same levels). Not even close.

I could guess based on the movie data I've collected over the years where to adjust your system for a worst case scenario but it gets worse... in my experience in testing situations like this, all AVR's do not handle re-directed bass the same. There are probably only a handful of members here who have 3 or more components in a row who have their gains maximized. I'd have to scope your signal chain with test discs and test the mini to see how it handles clipping.

Your rolloff looks to be not too bad, so that's cool. One thing I can tell you is if you run a total of 23dB down from 0dBFS, that would mean instead of having a max of 1.2V out of your AVR, it would be a max of 0.085V out of it which is playing close to the dirt of the noise floor. That is probably why the yellow trace has less rolloff at -20dB. The noise floor actually increases in level as you go down in frequency. That's of course assuming that 0dB on your AVR is setup properly for re-directed scenes and not clipping or compressing which like I said, who knows. Someday I might make a thread and offer a test disc for gain stages but that would have to be another day. I design my stuff "idiot proof" when it comes to feeding our systems with the proper voltage so there isn't much incentive to be honest.
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post #106 of 224 Old 10-19-2017, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^^ @Shreds . Thanks for taking the time. Well, with all the combinations of signal chains, components and content, it isn’t easy to get everything to line up without proper ways to test it, and i am learning as i go here, and boy do the hours go by as you sit there with your REW screen up and testing. But i find it interesting and learning something new every time.

Yes, i know using test signals isn’t the same as real content, but it was a start.

Today i will try some of the movie clips suggested, and maybe connect amp nr2.......

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post #107 of 224 Old 10-19-2017, 12:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I did a little movie testing today, and started with The Incredible Hulk, the abdomination scene with my regular MV -20 dB setting. With Audussey, DEQ, the 15 dB LS filters and everything, and it sounded great. I had MINDSP an Inuke software running to see input/output level, and i could see a flicker in the clip light in the Inuke input signal, but no audiable distorsion.

This is while the scene was running.(still with one amp for both cabs).



I also tested the HTTYD final crash scene, and it too was flawless, no noises or unwanted sounds, just pure deeep LFE.


So finally i connected both amps, that is one cab pr. amp.

One cab now plays pretty much the same as the two did before, and with both they play ~6 dB louder than before.



Comp sweep of one cab is almost equal to the two before.



So how does two amps sound with TIH? I am starting to get scared :O
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post #108 of 224 Old 10-19-2017, 12:37 PM
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Quote:
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I did a little movie testing today, and started with The Incredible Hulk, the abdomination scene with my regular MV -20 dB setting. With Audussey, DEQ, the 15 dB LS filters and everything, and it sounded great. I had MINDSP an Inuke software running to see input/output level, and i could see a flicker in the clip light in the Inuke input signal, but no audiable distorsion.

This is while the scene was running.(still with one amp for both cabs).



I also tested the HTTYD final crash scene, and it too was flawless, no noises or unwanted sounds, just pure deeep LFE.


So finally i connected both amps, that is one cab pr. amp.

One cab now plays pretty much the same as the two did before, and both plays ~6 Db louder than before.



Comp sweep of one cab is almost equal to the two before.



So how does two amps sound with TIH? I am starting to get scared :O
Headroom is always a good thing. Means you can turn the amps down and still get the same output with with less distortion.....

You can always turn subs down, you cant always turn them up more if the amp is clipping or the sub drivers are exceeding xmax...
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post #109 of 224 Old 10-20-2017, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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^^^ exactly

Ok, so i did a quick «rack» for my Inukes today. Nothing fancy, used some 2x4’s i had laying around. Not the normal rack, but wanted it as slim as possible.



It took about 5 minutes to make, and put the amps out of the way, but still easy to reach.



Never mind the wires and mess, just got it finished and in place I will put some paint on it later on

I also did the fan mod on the second amp, so wisper quiet now.
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post #110 of 224 Old 10-20-2017, 08:58 AM
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Neat idea! Keeps them compact and out of the way!
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post #111 of 224 Old 10-22-2017, 05:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Tonight i watched the first whole movie after the Sonosubs got done. But since i still only have two Inukes, i let one of them power one cab, and let the other power my Crowsons, so only half of the LFE output.

I watched the new Mummy movie with Tom Cruise, and i notice the LFE is more precise, dry, and there was some cool ULF scenes too that really made a difference, compared to old setup, so much more weight to it, more immersive and effortless. I had some low shelf on my old setup too, to reach into the single digits, and the S3000i performed admirably, but now i clearly hear the difference, it is so much more dynamic, it is pretty clear that the DSP in the S3000i had compressing/limiting near max output.


With old setup most of the single digits impact was from the Crowsons, but now you feel it in the airpressure too, clearly coming from the two 18’s doing their ting.
There were several moments i just went: Woooow, my LFE has never done that before ! And it is not that it doesn’t belong there, it is the opposite: that’s what it should sound like. It is kind of like the first time i heard Atmos, proper LFE and ULF is simply more immersive and puts you more into the movie/story.
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post #112 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 12:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
One thing I can tell you is if you run a total of 23dB down from 0dBFS, that would mean instead of having a max of 1.2V out of your AVR, it would be a max of 0.085V out of it which is playing close to the dirt of the noise floor. That is probably why the yellow trace has less rolloff at -20dB. The noise floor actually increases in level as you go down in frequency. .
Yes, but remember this is a unprocessed signal at MV -0 dB. No Audussey, no DEQ. And i measured 1.8V, not 1.2V.

But lowering MV is not all i do, i turn on Audyssey again, and DEQ, and regain most of the voltage. And no more roll off.

And you are right about lower Hz demands more voltage, just look at the difference between 60 Hz and 10Hz in the pics above.

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post #113 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yes, but remember this is a unprocessed signal at MV -0 dB. No Audussey, no DEQ.
But lowering MV is not all i do, i turn on Audyssey again, and DEQ, and regain most of the voltage. And no more roll off.
Not sure why audyssey and DEQ would be making up for a 20dB attenuation. Any graphs on this?

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And i measured 1.8V, not 1.2V. ...And you are right about lower Hz demands more voltage, just look at the difference between 60 Hz and 10Hz in the pics above.
You're meter isn't the most accurate tool. You can get a basic idea with it but don't take any of the numbers it gives you with low voltage AC to the bank. Especially under 50Hz.
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post #114 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 07:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure why audyssey and DEQ would be making up for a 20dB attenuation. Any graphs on this?
I am talking about DEQ on the AVR(Audyssey), not the Inuke, just to be clear. Found this after a quick search:



And you can see it in my second signal chain pic earlier, where the blue is with Audyssey on, and the green(mislabeled on the pic) is with DEQ on. Not quite correct either, as this is after the Minidsp, and not from the speakers, but still...

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You're meter isn't the most accurate tool. You can get a basic idea with it but don't take any of the numbers it gives you with low voltage AC to the bank. Especially under 50Hz.
True, but at least it showed stable values at the 60hz and 10hz tones. Below 10hz it started to go up and down, understandably.

You can also see the headroom of the output channel3(minidsp screen) at the various levels/settings.

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post #115 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 07:52 PM
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What are you trying to achieve with the DEQ?
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post #116 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 08:41 PM - Thread Starter
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What are you trying to achieve with the DEQ?
Well, as i said, i don’t listen at MV -0dB, to me that is just way to loud. But i do love LFE, and DEQ works to retain the balance when you lower the volume from MV -0 dB.

You know, like:


I guess some like it, and some don’t. I like it

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post #117 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 08:55 PM
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Did you turn it on and do compression sweeps and compare it with it off? Did you happen to see how it adds to the boost of your minidsp's low shelf when you were doing loopbacks to see how much boost you ended up with down low compared with the rest of the subwoofer bandwidth at -20dB?

Can you post this graph again only run the frequency up to 500Hz?
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post #118 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 09:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Did you turn it on and do compression sweeps and compare it with it off? Did you happen to see how it adds to the boost of your minidsp's low shelf when you were doing loopbacks to see how much boost you ended up with down low compared with the rest of the subwoofer bandwidth at -20dB?

Can you post this graph again only run the frequency up to 500Hz?
Doing comp sweep with DEQ is not advisable(i think), as the steps would not be equal. As you increase volume, the DEQ decreases.

But i guess you could say i use the Minidsp and its LS to flatten the curve, and then use DEQ to add «a house curve».

Sure, i can do those tests, but i’ll have to wait a few days because of work, and to get the house to my self.

But(as i guess you know) doing REW graphs with Audyssey ahead of the speakers (at the AVR pre-outs or Minidsp)makes the curves inverted, as you can see on the pic you quoted. They are wavy.

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post #119 of 224 Old 10-23-2017, 09:36 PM
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Yeah, no problem take your time. Really you just can do either the sweeps and record the MVL or the loopback. I always like looking at the loopbacks because it's easier to calculate gains from them and see if I have too much EQ happening somewhere in the chain as that always makes it sound weird. I always check the auto eq algorithms too as in the past I've seen them do strange things in the ULF region.
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post #120 of 224 Old 10-26-2017, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Got a better close mic measurement today. Turns out the last one was with Audyssey on. This one looks more correct

After i measured with the Umik-1 on a tripod stuck all the way to the center of the driver between the driver plate and the endplate, i removed the endplate, not touching the mic, and did another measurment.

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