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post #1 of 37 Old 09-07-2017, 10:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Some basic questions about subwoofers

I ordered two Stonehenge subwoofers from DIYSG and they came assembled (and paint ready), which saves me a ton of time. Along with the cabinets I bought two 18" Dayton RS subwoofers that obviously get installed into the opening. However, it is not clear to me how to hook everything up/wire them. I guess I'm not clear on how these things work!

I have a Denon 6300, which is supposed to provide power for an 11.2 set-up, which is exactly what I have in my theater room (3 mains, 4 surrounds, 4 atmos and 2 subs). Here are my questions:

1. Do these subwoofers need a separate power source (or amp) other than the Denon receiver?

2. Even though the cabinets came assembled, I assume I still need to line the inside with foam or denim insulation or something - is that right? If so, should I try to cover all of the inside walls or is just the top, bottom, left, right and back walls sufficient? Might be tough getting my arm in there!

3. What do I need in order to connect the Dayton subwoofer to the receiver? The subwoofer itself has 2 connectors on it (+ and -), which I assume get hooked up like any other speaker but what is typically used on the back side of the cabinet? Regular binding posts? So I'd run wires from the subwoofer to the binding posts and then use the binding posts to connect to the receiver? Is there a "standard" method that people use? I've read a lot of build threads but this detail always seems to be omitted. Pics would be helpful!

Thanks!
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post #2 of 37 Old 09-07-2017, 10:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
I ordered two Stonehenge subwoofers from DIYSG and they came assembled (and paint ready), which saves me a ton of time. Along with the cabinets I bought two 18" Dayton RS subwoofers that obviously get installed into the opening. However, it is not clear to me how to hook everything up/wire them. I guess I'm not clear on how these things work!

I have a Denon 6300, which is supposed to provide power for an 11.2 set-up, which is exactly what I have in my theater room (3 mains, 4 surrounds, 4 atmos and 2 subs). Here are my questions:

1. Do these subwoofers need a separate power source (or amp) other than the Denon receiver?

2. Even though the cabinets came assembled, I assume I still need to line the inside with foam or denim insulation or something - is that right? If so, should I try to cover all of the inside walls or is just the top, bottom, left, right and back walls sufficient? Might be tough getting my arm in there!

3. What do I need in order to connect the Dayton subwoofer to the receiver? The subwoofer itself has 2 connectors on it (+ and -), which I assume get hooked up like any other speaker but what is typically used on the back side of the cabinet? Regular binding posts? So I'd run wires from the subwoofer to the binding posts and then use the binding posts to connect to the receiver? Is there a "standard" method that people use? I've read a lot of build threads but this detail always seems to be omitted. Pics would be helpful!

Thanks!
The answer to your 1st question is a resounding YES. You definitely need a power source for any sub output on the Denon. The subs you bought are passive and not powered?
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post #3 of 37 Old 09-07-2017, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Dbruce13 View Post
The answer to your 1st question is a resounding YES. You definitely need a power source for any sub output on the Denon. The subs you bought are passive and not powered?
I believe so - THIS is the subwoofer in question. How would I go about powering these? I assume I need a separate amp that goes in the rack?
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post #4 of 37 Old 09-07-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
1. Do these subwoofers need a separate power source (or amp) other than the Denon receiver?
Yes, either a plate amp (which the box was build to accommodate internally, or a pro amp (better choice for most)

Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
2. Even though the cabinets came assembled, I assume I still need to line the inside with foam or denim insulation or something - is that right? If so, should I try to cover all of the inside walls or is just the top, bottom, left, right and back walls sufficient? Might be tough getting my arm in there!
You can, most do, its not "really" needed and wont change how things sound much. See link for a much more in depth discussion of this


Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
3. What do I need in order to connect the Dayton subwoofer to the receiver? The subwoofer itself has 2 connectors on it (+ and -), which I assume get hooked up like any other speaker but what is typically used on the back side of the cabinet? Regular binding posts? So I'd run wires from the subwoofer to the binding posts and then use the binding posts to connect to the receiver? Is there a "standard" method that people use? I've read a lot of build threads but this detail always seems to be omitted. Pics would be helpful!
If using binding posts, you are correct. Wire it like a normal speaker to the binding posts.

Regarding getting it to connect to the AVR, you will run the following wires:

Using a plate amp screwed into box:

1. RCA cable from Denon to plate amp
2. Plate amp speaker cables to sub

Using a pro-amp
1. RCA cable from Denon to Pro Amp (may require a RCA to XLR Adapter)
2. Regular speaker cable with spades or banana's from pro amp to sub binding posts OR Speakon connector from pro amp to subs 4 pole neutrick connector
^Personally after using nuetrick connectors I FAR prefer them to regular binding posts.
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Yes, either a plate amp (which the box was build to accommodate internally, or a pro amp (better choice for most)
First let me say thanks for the detailed response! Let's assume I'd rather use a pro-amp (which I think means a separate component that would sit in a rack) instead of a plate amp (which would be installed into the back of the cabinet). It looks like the subwoofer has a maximum power of 1800 watts - what are my options for a pro amp?



Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
You can, most do, its not "really" needed and wont change how things sound much. See link for a much more in depth discussion of this
Hmmm.. looks like I could go either way on this. Does the fact that I am placing these behind an acoustically transparent screen make any difference?


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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
If using binding posts, you are correct. Wire it like a normal speaker to the binding posts.

Regarding getting it to connect to the AVR, you will run the following wires:

Using a plate amp screwed into box:

1. RCA cable from Denon to plate amp
2. Plate amp speaker cables to sub

Using a pro-amp
1. RCA cable from Denon to Pro Amp (may require a RCA to XLR Adapter)
2. Regular speaker cable with spades or banana's from pro amp to sub binding posts OR Speakon connector from pro amp to subs 4 pole neutrick connector
^Personally after using nuetrick connectors I FAR prefer them to regular binding posts.
Using binding posts seems like an unusual choice based on what I've read around here. Perhaps there is another method?

I have run a quad shield solid copper 3Ghz RG6 coax cable AND 12AWG CL2 rated speaker wire to each of the subwoofer locations. Hopefully that is sufficient. How does the Neutrick connector work in this scenario?

Thanks!!
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post #6 of 37 Old 09-07-2017, 12:04 PM
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Greetings fellow NJ home theater enthusiast.

I second what EndersShadow said above but would also point you towards the first few posts of MartySub thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...tysub-faq.html as an initial crash course. I think its the closest to all encompassing on the DIY subforum.

Quote:
First let me say thanks for the detailed response! Let's assume I'd rather use a pro-amp (which I think means a separate component that would sit in a rack) instead of a plate amp (which would be installed into the back of the cabinet). It looks like the subwoofer has a maximum power of 1800 watts - what are my options for a pro amp?
I'll let you dig your teeth into that thread because it seems like you're enjoying the overall process (wonderful build thread by the way) but the go to option for pro amps around here are the Behringer iNuke DSP series, specifically the 3000DSP or 6000DSP. This series of amps include digital signal processing (DSP) to allow you to "tune" the subs to your room and overall system.

Quote:
Hmmm.. looks like I could go either way on this. Does the fact that I am placing these behind an acoustically transparent screen make any difference?
Depends on how acoustically transparent it really is . In all seriousness, in my opinion no difference between having/not having an AT screen between MLP and the sub based on the low frequencies the damping is intended to target. If you are willing to sacrifice a few dB's for a flatter response with slightly less sound bouncing around the box go for it. Could probably use the same type of foam panels I see behind your soundstage in build thread if you have some extras laying around.

Quote:
Using binding posts seems like an unusual choice based on what I've read around here. Perhaps there is another method?
I have run a quad shield solid copper 3Ghz RG6 coax cable AND 12AWG CL2 rated speaker wire to each of the subwoofer locations. Hopefully that is sufficient. How does the Neutrick connector work in this scenario?
Speakon connectors would be attached to the bare ends of your pre-run 12AWG and then plugged into something like this https://www.parts-express.com/neutri...mount--092-059 which would be installed on the Stonehenge box itself. The other end of your 12AWG would also be connected to a Speakon "plug" which is what is required for an iNuke pro-amp.
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Last edited by lavakv; 09-07-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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post #7 of 37 Old 09-08-2017, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
First let me say thanks for the detailed response! Let's assume I'd rather use a pro-amp (which I think means a separate component that would sit in a rack) instead of a plate amp (which would be installed into the back of the cabinet). It looks like the subwoofer has a maximum power of 1800 watts - what are my options for a pro amp?
There are quite a few options, however to get to 1800 watts your likely looking at a single BRIDGED pro amp per side to be safe. As mentioned lots of folks like the iNuke series for their software based programmable DSP. I dislike them for a few reasons myself (louder fan noise, bright orange LED's, ugly looking front), but the DSP & their bench tested power makes them hard to beat at that pricepoint. There are also mods you can do to solve a few of those problems, however they void the warranty, should that matter. As far as which iNuke is right for you, I'd have to google and look at their power ratings, then check for ACTUAL BENCH TESTING, as they overinflate their specs quite a bit.


I spent MORE and bought a Crown XLS2000 (newer version is the XLS2002), and then build a custom external programmable DSP using a MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced. The Crowns are close powerwise to the iNukes when bridged, and are quieter. However as stated I spent about 200 more for them.



Last comment on this, you probably want to model your sub and enclosure in WinISD because you may need/be able to use 1800 watts per driver. You need to look at the combination of that driver in that box to make sure that 1800 watts wont make the driver go to far one way or the other, which is called overexcursion.

I can model your stuff later tonight and take a look, I'm not in front of a computer I can do that at currently.


Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
Hmmm.. looks like I could go either way on this. Does the fact that I am placing these behind an acoustically transparent screen make any difference?
Filling them doesn’t matter one way or the other TBH. Most line it just because when they build it, its easy to do at that time as they go along. I don’t think it would be a "bad" idea if you wanted to do it. Personally I'm a fan of the mattress topper + spray adhesive method to attach it to the wall.

However that may not work out so well as the Stonehenge boxes are not as easy to work inside at all.

So throw in a bit of polyfil if you so choose, but again not really "required" and may be more of a pain than skipping and later on trying it for "fun"


Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
I have run a quad shield solid copper 3Ghz RG6 coax cable AND 12AWG CL2 rated speaker wire to each of the subwoofer locations. Hopefully that is sufficient. How does the Neutrick connector work in this scenario?
First thing, its not a "problem" persay, just letting you know. 12 gauge wire is GREAT, its GOOD you ran that gauge wire to your sub. However any speakon connector I've seen will tend to only work with 14 gauge wire. Which just means your going to need to trim off some of the strands to get it to fit inside the speakon connectors. I know for a fact this is true as I tried to use 10 gauge wire in a set of them and it wouldnt work. 14 gauge worked perfectly.

Since I anticipate you will install the amps in your HT rack, you would just need to convert each side of the speaker wire that will connect to the amp, and then sub to a nuetrick connector. Its really not hard to do, and not a lot different than installing banana's.

If you do go this route, even though you only NEED 2 pole connectors, I'd suggest buying the 4 pole ones. Yes you don’t use 2 of the connections internally, but the 4 pole connectors are a bit better made.

So at your rack, you'd terminate the CL2 wire with a 4 pole nuetrick connector, like this one. Then you'd also terminate the speaker wire that connects to the subwoofer with a similar connector (they also make 90 degree connectors if you need to save some space).

Even if you terminated your speaker wire to a wall plate (like this), you can just connect a small run of speaker wire to those binding posts (using banana's preferably), and then change the end connecting to your sub box to a nuetrick connector.

For your sub, you would want to use THIS connector (with some gasket behind it), to make sure you get a nice seal. You can flush mount it if you want, but its not required as long as you add some gasket around it to ensure it seals tight.

Then from the nuetrick connector on your sub, to the sub you'd just use regular speaker wire.

Lastly, I suggest using the Nuetrick brand speakon connections. Speakon is the TYPE of connector you need, Nuetrick is a BRAND. Nuetrick's connectors tend to be better IMHO.

I've used all the connectors I've linked to with no problem.

Hopefully this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.
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Last edited by EndersShadow; 09-08-2017 at 05:35 AM.
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OK - I'm going to try to respond to both of you and hopefully make sense but apologies in advance if I'm screwing this up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavakv View Post
Greetings fellow NJ home theater enthusiast.

I second what EndersShadow said above but would also point you towards the first few posts of MartySub thread https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...tysub-faq.html as an initial crash course. I think its the closest to all encompassing on the DIY subforum.
Looks like I've got more reading to do! As much as I enjoy the process I'm coming down to the end of the home theater project and need to get things wrapped up as fast as possible - I don't think my family can take much more of me killing entire weekends in the basement! Where in NJ are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavakv View Post
I'll let you dig your teeth into that thread because it seems like you're enjoying the overall process (wonderful build thread by the way) but the go to option for pro amps around here are the Behringer iNuke DSP series, specifically the 3000DSP or 6000DSP. This series of amps include digital signal processing (DSP) to allow you to "tune" the subs to your room and overall system.
Thanks - I'm not picky since I have no frame of reference so i'll take a look at the iNukes - I've seen those mentioned a lot around here. Would the 6000DSP be enough to power BOTH subwoofers? It looks like each amp can connect to 2 subs...

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavakv View Post
Depends on how acoustically transparent it really is . In all seriousness, in my opinion no difference between having/not having an AT screen between MLP and the sub based on the low frequencies the damping is intended to target. If you are willing to sacrifice a few dB's for a flatter response with slightly less sound bouncing around the box go for it. Could probably use the same type of foam panels I see behind your soundstage in build thread if you have some extras laying around.
I'll shove something in there just for peace of mind even if it is just leftover polyfill from the 1099 build. I've got a bag and a half of that stuff!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lavakv View Post
Speakon connectors would be attached to the bare ends of your pre-run 12AWG and then plugged into something like this https://www.parts-express.com/neutri...mount--092-059 which would be installed on the Stonehenge box itself. The other end of your 12AWG would also be connected to a Speakon "plug" which is what is required for an iNuke pro-amp.
OK - I think I understand. I drill a hole in the back of the subwoofer cabinet to accept the 2 Pole Panel Mount (like the one you LINKED to) and install it. Then on BOTH ENDS of the 12AWG wire I would install a 2 Pole Cable Mount (like THIS). One end of the 12AWG wire would plug into the back of the woofer cabinet and the other end would plug into the back of the iNuke (THIS is the one I'm looking at to drive both subwoofers). Then another cable would need to be run from the back of the iNuke to the Denon receiver. I would repeat this process for each subwoofer.

Is that right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
There are quite a few options, however to get to 1800 watts your likely looking at a single BRIDGED pro amp per side to be safe. As mentioned lots of folks like the iNuke series for their software based programmable DSP. I dislike them for a few reasons myself (louder fan noise, bright orange LED's, ugly looking front), but the DSP & their bench tested power makes them hard to beat at that pricepoint. There are also mods you can do to solve a few of those problems, however they void the warranty, should that matter. As far as which iNuke is right for you, I'd have to google and look at their power ratings, then check for ACTUAL BENCH TESTING, as they overinflate their specs quite a bit.

I spent MORE and bought a Crown XLS2000 (newer version is the XLS2002), and then build a custom external programmable DSP using a MiniDSP 2x4 Balanced. The Crowns are close powerwise to the iNukes when bridged, and are quieter. However as stated I spent about 200 more for them.
I think I'm going to stick to the simpler solution and go with the iNukes. All of my equipment is going to be inside of a closet outside of my theater room so the only time I'll ever look at it is when I need to change a blu-ray or video game or something. Even the louder fan noise won't (shouldn't!) be an issue.

What does "bridged" mean in this context? It sounds like you are recommending a separate amp for each subwoofer. In that case could I get something like the iNuke 3000DSP to drive one subwoofer? Is this preferrable over the iNuke 6000DSP (which seems to accommodate 2 subs and has double the power).

Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Last comment on this, you probably want to model your sub and enclosure in WinISD because you may need/be able to use 1800 watts per driver. You need to look at the combination of that driver in that box to make sure that 1800 watts wont make the driver go to far one way or the other, which is called overexcursion.

I can model your stuff later tonight and take a look, I'm not in front of a computer I can do that at currently.
OK - i'm not sire what this means but I'll take whatever advice you can provide!


Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Filling them doesn’t matter one way or the other TBH. Most line it just because when they build it, its easy to do at that time as they go along. I don’t think it would be a "bad" idea if you wanted to do it. Personally I'm a fan of the mattress topper + spray adhesive method to attach it to the wall.

However that may not work out so well as the Stonehenge boxes are not as easy to work inside at all.

So throw in a bit of polyfil if you so choose, but again not really "required" and may be more of a pain than skipping and later on trying it for "fun"
Polyfill it is! Like you said, I'm not sure I can get my arm inside of the opening to attach the mattress topper (plus, I'd have to go buy more mattress topper!). If it really doesn't make a big difference it will be much easier to go with the polyfill.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
First thing, its not a "problem" persay, just letting you know. 12 gauge wire is GREAT, its GOOD you ran that gauge wire to your sub. However any speakon connector I've seen will tend to only work with 14 gauge wire. Which just means your going to need to trim off some of the strands to get it to fit inside the speakon connectors. I know for a fact this is true as I tried to use 10 gauge wire in a set of them and it wouldnt work. 14 gauge worked perfectly.

Since I anticipate you will install the amps in your HT rack, you would just need to convert each side of the speaker wire that will connect to the amp, and then sub to a nuetrick connector. Its really not hard to do, and not a lot different than installing banana's.

If you do go this route, even though you only NEED 2 pole connectors, I'd suggest buying the 4 pole ones. Yes you don’t use 2 of the connections internally, but the 4 pole connectors are a bit better made.

So at your rack, you'd terminate the CL2 wire with a 4 pole nuetrick connector, like this one. Then you'd also terminate the speaker wire that connects to the subwoofer with a similar connector (they also make 90 degree connectors if you need to save some space).

Even if you terminated your speaker wire to a wall plate (like this), you can just connect a small run of speaker wire to those binding posts (using banana's preferably), and then change the end connecting to your sub box to a nuetrick connector.

For your sub, you would want to use THIS connector (with some gasket behind it), to make sure you get a nice seal. You can flush mount it if you want, but its not required as long as you add some gasket around it to ensure it seals tight.

Then from the nuetrick connector on your sub, to the sub you'd just use regular speaker wire.

Lastly, I suggest using the Nuetrick brand speakon connections. Speakon is the TYPE of connector you need, Nuetrick is a BRAND. Nuetrick's connectors tend to be better IMHO.

I've used all the connectors I've linked to with no problem.

Hopefully this helps. Let me know if you have any more questions.
This is extremely helpful and tracks what I thought when I was typing out my response to lavakv above (except you are recommending 4 pole connectors instead of 2 pole connectors based on quality/sturdiness).

So it looks like in order to complete the subwoofers I'll need:

  • 1 (or 2?) amplifiers - currently looking at one iNuke 6000DSP or 2 iNuke 3000DSPs
  • 4 pole connectors (for each end of the wires running to the subs)
  • 2 panel mounts (for the back of each cabinet)

Am I missing anything?
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post #9 of 37 Old 09-08-2017, 11:11 AM
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I'm in Berkeley Heights, not sure how far up there you consider "North" Jersey. Lived in North Bergen county as a baby, grew up in Lavallette, now more central.

In my opinion, the 6000DSP seems like enough for you. Remember the diminishing rate of return for extra dB per watt and I doubt you will want to purse more expensive options. One of the resident mental patients (bassheads) may suggest otherwise though . As EndersShadow wrote, I would model that amp paired with those subwoofers in WinISD for you, but my company's IT department doesn't appreciate me downloading third party software. I don't see two 3000's as an economical option considering that the 6000 is essentially two bridged 3000's in one case for 1.33 times the cost if memory serves. If you buy on Parts Express remember to Google coupon codes (cough cough).

Regarding polyfill stuffing, keep a clear path from driver to port, and keep the polyfill away from the driver.

Correct on connections except the amplifier only requires a single input from the receiver. Through the iNuke DSP software, you will be able to select an option which allows the single input source to be used for both outputs. Two inputs allows some additional independent tweaking but nothing major if I recall. That cable from receiver to amp would likely be an RCA to 1/4" TS depending on your receiver sub out connection.

Using 4 pole connectors sounds fine with me, just use +1 and -1 and ignore the +2/-2 terminals.

Only thing you may be overlooking is running wiring from driver to speakon chassis/panel mounts. Best option is to solder the wires onto those exposed terminals but a simpler option would be some crimp connectors like these. Other end of the wiring should be attached to the driver via some type of spring loaded terminal which is integral to the driver itself.

Last edited by lavakv; 09-08-2017 at 11:14 AM.
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post #10 of 37 Old 09-08-2017, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
OK - I think I understand. I drill a hole in the back of the subwoofer cabinet to accept the 2 Pole Panel Mount (like the one you LINKED to) and install it. Then on BOTH ENDS of the 12AWG wire I would install a 2 Pole Cable Mount (like THIS). One end of the 12AWG wire would plug into the back of the woofer cabinet and the other end would plug into the back of the iNuke (THIS is the one I'm looking at to drive both subwoofers). Then another cable would need to be run from the back of the iNuke to the Denon receiver. I would repeat this process for each subwoofer.

Is that right?


This is correct, however I again HIGHLY RECOMMEND 4 pole connectors, specifically the ones I linked to. The ones you have linked WILL work, however I have used both and the 2 pole kinda suck IMHO. You also CANNOT mix and match them either, so either all 4 pole, or all 2 pole.
Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
This is extremely helpful and tracks what I thought when I was typing out my response to lavakv above (except you are recommending 4 pole connectors instead of 2 pole connectors based on quality/sturdiness).


Yup
Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
I think I'm going to stick to the simpler solution and go with the iNukes. All of my equipment is going to be inside of a closet outside of my theater room so the only time I'll ever look at it is when I need to change a blu-ray or video game or something. Even the louder fan noise won't (shouldn't!) be an issue.

What does "bridged" mean in this context? It sounds like you are recommending a separate amp for each subwoofer. In that case could I get something like the iNuke 3000DSP to drive one subwoofer? Is this preferable over the iNuke 6000DSP (which seems to accommodate 2 subs and has double the power).

Bridged in this context means you take a stereo pro amp and connect (ie BRIDGE) the channels, making it a monoblock amp. So you'd need 2 if this was the case.

With that stated from what I remember (please double check me on this), the iNuke 6000's, is PHYSICALLY 2 iNuke 3000's just in a single chassis. So the 6000 would be a good bet, just make sure to get the DSP VERSION.

Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
OK - i'm not sure what this means but I'll take whatever advice you can provide!

WinISD is a program that lets you plug in the specifications of a given driver, add the box size/port tune, etc you plan to build and then simulates the SPL response, driver excursion, port velocity, etc.
You can then adjust things to ensure that your not going to blow the driver. Its used a LOT by guys building their own boxes (like when they were determining the size, port length, etc of the Stonehenge, VBSS, Martycube, etc initially)

In your case you bought a "mostly" complete formula so to speak. The box size is know, port tune is known, and you know what driver you want. All that’s left is to plug those into the program, add the amount of power you want to send the driver, and then check the simulation.

On your driver spec page there is a piece of information called Xmax. That is the maximum amount of travel the driver can go before it starts to encounter problems.

What I am going to do is go plug your formula in and check the Excursion Graph in WinISD to see how the driver will react to that amount of wattage and different frequencies to ensure that you CAN use that much without risking damage to the driver.

At minimum you MUST add a subsonic filter in the iNuke software at or very close to the port tune of the box (19hz IIRC) to ensure the driver doesn’t have problems with frequency's below that.

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Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
Polyfill it is! Like you said, I'm not sure I can get my arm inside of the opening to attach the mattress topper (plus, I'd have to go buy more mattress topper!). If it really doesn't make a big difference it will be much easier to go with the polyfill.

Yup, cant hurt, and it is one less thing to have to dispose of. Just try to keep the area around the port clear of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
So it looks like in order to complete the subwoofers I'll need:
Quote:
Originally Posted by javeryh View Post
  • 1 (or 2?) amplifiers - currently looking at one iNuke 6000DSP or 2 iNuke 3000DSPs
  • 4 pole connectors (for each end of the wires running to the subs)
  • 2 panel mounts (for the back of each cabinet)
Am I missing anything?
Yes, one small thing. You are still missing the connection you need from the Denon to the back of the iNuke. Since you're going with those, you will need to use XLR connectors to connect to the iNuke. But your Denon only has RCA pre-outs. So you will need to buy a RCA to XLR adapter or a RCA to XLR cable for each sub output.

I personally am not a Monoprice fan, but that’s me, but beyond that I cannot recommend anything cable wise that isn’t a bit on the pricey end. I'm sure there are low cost options out there others can recommend.

Here are some examples:
RCA to XLR Cable
RCA to XLR Adapter
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I'll add a couple of things as far as speaker wiring at the wall/sub. Speakons will accept up to 11AWG wire, 10 is slightly too large. 14AWG will usually slip right in, 12 will work by backing out the screws and taking something thin and pointy, like a mini screwdriver, and bending the spring tab inside the speakon open a bit more. You can then get 12AWG in pretty easily and tighten the screw/spring tab back down like with any other wire.

For the OP, strip back the outer jacket of your 12AWG about 3/4 to 1 inch, no more than that. Strip each individual positive and negative conductor 5/16-3/8 of an inch, no more than that. Make sure all of the strands go into the proper 1+ and 1- holes in the connector, NO stray strands. You should see a tiny bit of copper sticking out when fully seated. By tiny, I mean about 1/16 of an inch or a bit less. Then just tighten down the little screws to clamp the wire in.

Don't forget to slip on the bushing on before terminating the connector, or you'll have to take it apart again to do so, it's an integral part of the connector. You'll also have 2 different sizes of cable clamp, Neutrik calls this a "chuck". Choose the one that works best with the outer diameter of your 12AWG cable. The portion of the chuck that has what appear to be flaps go away from the insert, and towards the bushing. This is what gets squeezed down on the jacket of the cable as you tighten the bushing onto the housing. This will all make much more sense if you re-read it with the connector and its parts in front of you.

A couple of different Speakons have been suggested, I'll confirm that this one https://www.parts-express.com/neutri...iys00s3dy0005c is the one to get. 4 pole. Chasis mount. The chasis mount allows for a thin foam gasket of some kind. The panel mount type doesn't.

Another thing to consider is a wall plate that the cable in your wall can terminate to. Then make a short patch cable between it and the sub. Wire going out of the wall and directly to it is fine, and in some cases better because there are less terminations in line, but for convenience, a disconnect is better. You can use the same chasis and cable end Speakons as have already been suggested, just get 1 extra of each for each subwoofer. You can take a blank wall plate cover from Home Depot and drill a hole in it to accept the speakon.
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Also, it's Neutrik, not Neutrick, and Speakon is Neutrik's line of connectors. There are other companies now making Speakon "compatible" connectors, but Speakons they are not. Get the real thing. The cost difference isn't great and you're sure to be getting a good quality connector with Neutrik.
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So just as a FYI, per WinISD, you get into trouble once you hit 700 watts per box. Anything over that for a long time and you risk having issues with the driver.

That means that you can save some bucks and get the 3000DSP model as it probably close to the most you want to give those drivers (as the specs are a bit over-inflated IIRC).

So thats what I'd go with. iNuke 3000DSP

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check out the MartySub faq as it answers a lot of questions about hooking up avr's to pro amps, wiring drivers, etc. should answer most of the questions that I'm seeing in your thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
check out the MartySub faq as it answers a lot of questions about hooking up avr's to pro amps, wiring drivers, etc. should answer most of the questions that I'm seeing in your thread.
Ha! The LTD Almighty has seconded my suggestion. Haven't felt this correct on this forum in some time (insert smug face).
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Originally Posted by lavakv View Post
Ha! The LTD Almighty has seconded my suggestion. Haven't felt this correct on this forum in some time (insert smug face).

apologies. i was going through pretty fast and would have seconded your recommendation, but somehow it didn't register. anyway, that should help the o.p. (and others) out a lot.
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post #17 of 37 Old 09-08-2017, 11:58 PM
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I don't recommend using 700 watts. That amount of watts will put the woofer into high distortions. I suggest a conservative wattage of around 500 watts. Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore 2 since it provides sufficient amount of wattage, has banana plugs, and take RCA or phono. This way you can use something that you are familiar and probably already have instead of getting connectors and wasting more time.

The highpass filter that you should use is either

18 Hz 2nd order HP Butterworth filter (~109 dB at 20 Hz, ~47ms delay)

OR

16 Hz 3rd order HP Butterworth filter (~110 dB at 20 Hz, ~60 ms delay)

In this case, I suggest the 2nd order filter because it will be faster than using the 3rd order filter. You can either use passive high pass filter or use a DSP. When using a DSP, you should put a label near the subwoofer terminal telling you what high pass filter you should use.

You don't necessarily need to find pro-amps or any amplifier with DSP. It does help to have a DSP when integrated subwoofers in a room. I suggest a DSP from miniDSP. The miniDSP in-a-box 2x4 HD is the model you should get instead of the previous model. The voltage output of the HD is 2 volts and the previous model is 0.9 volts. The 2 volts output will utilize the full voltage input of your chosen amplifier. The plug-in you should select for subwoofers is either 2-way or 4-way.

When using WinISD, you need to learn it's a free program and it has quirks. The WinISD version (0.7.0.950) that I'm using doesn't simulate wattage well, so I have to convert wattage into voltage. The formula that I use is volts^2/ohms = watts or (ohms X wattage)^0.5 = volts

BTW, Monoprice site is irritating to use, so don't buy from them.
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post #18 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 03:56 AM
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I don't agree with 700watts being too much for the RSS460 in the Stonehedge which is 5.4cf tuned @19Hz . Any ported subwoofer needs to be used with a high pass filter to protect it from lower frequencies below the port tune. Go with the Inuke 6000dsp for $100 more than the 3000 and you will have double the power for future upgrades.

Modeling it in WINISD it looks fine and can take even a little more power. Look at the enclosure Part Express recommends and it goes even higher on the excursion if you feed it the RMS they rate it at.

Here is the RSS460HO excursion graph from WINISD using a 20hz BW HP. Looks good to me and I would feel safe giving it 700 watts. I doubt you will see or hear problems even giving it 900 watts as it is still around 14mm of xmax and it is not like you are running a sine wave thru your subs hitting that all the time. Real world use it is short bursts here and there at different frequencies.

Unless some can post with some real world experience that says 700watts is too much or post their WINISD showing what I am missing I would go the bigger amp instead of going with the 3000 and be amp limited now and in the future. Better to have too much power and not need it than to need it and not have it.

And go read the review on Data-bass about the RSS460 if anything it is under rated, not over like I saw posted in this thread. "The driver does not have a huge amount of displacement but it certainly has more powerful low bass output than the geometric 12.75mm xmax rating might suggest. An effective useful excursion rating would likely be more like 18-20mm." http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=89&mset=96

Also, the Inuke 6000DSP can be had for under $350 shipped, go to eBay VIPAUDIO or pitbullaudio and make off of say $325 and they will come back with $345 and you can except or try for lower.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg RSS460HO [email protected] 20hz BW HP 700w.jpg (217.6 KB, 214 views)

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post #19 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 05:34 AM
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I suggested 700 watts as it keeps the driver safe 24/7 and adding more wattage does little SPL wise unless you double the power and then your in real trouble.

Look at a graph of 700 v 800 v 900 v 1800 watts. For the first three you won't see a huge difference (re one you'd be able to audibly discern) in SPL but it is OVER the excursion of the driver. Hitting it with lots of wattage will roast the driver fast and you need to start doubling power to get enough SPL to discern between the two.

And with TWO of them, he will get some decent gain anyway so why risk it with more than 700 watts?

We are literally arguing over a couple db and at 700 watts the sub is still at around 110 db at 20hz and maxes out at 117 db...

Here are my WinISD graphs. Black is 700w, Red is 800z, Orange is 1400w. Notice the VERY LITTLE difference 800w makes over 700, then look at the excursion graph.

Then look at the fact that 1400w is what it needs to be louder and then its excursion. Not worth it, especially since he's building two of these.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 460HO SPL Comparisons.jpg (257.1 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg 460HO Excursion Comparisons.jpg (276.3 KB, 23 views)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
So just as a FYI, per WinISD, you get into trouble once you hit 700 watts per box. Anything over that for a long time and you risk having issues with the driver.

That means that you can save some bucks and get the 3000DSP model as it probably close to the most you want to give those drivers (as the specs are a bit over-inflated IIRC).

So thats what I'd go with. iNuke 3000DSP
Quote:
Originally Posted by tecknurd View Post
I don't recommend using 700 watts. That amount of watts will put the woofer into high distortions. I suggest a conservative wattage of around 500 watts. Crown XLS 1502 DriveCore 2 since it provides sufficient amount of wattage, has banana plugs, and take RCA or phono. This way you can use something that you are familiar and probably already have instead of getting connectors and wasting more time.

The highpass filter that you should use is either

18 Hz 2nd order HP Butterworth filter (~109 dB at 20 Hz, ~47ms delay)

OR

16 Hz 3rd order HP Butterworth filter (~110 dB at 20 Hz, ~60 ms delay)

In this case, I suggest the 2nd order filter because it will be faster than using the 3rd order filter. You can either use passive high pass filter or use a DSP. When using a DSP, you should put a label near the subwoofer terminal telling you what high pass filter you should use.

You don't necessarily need to find pro-amps or any amplifier with DSP. It does help to have a DSP when integrated subwoofers in a room. I suggest a DSP from miniDSP. The miniDSP in-a-box 2x4 HD is the model you should get instead of the previous model. The voltage output of the HD is 2 volts and the previous model is 0.9 volts. The 2 volts output will utilize the full voltage input of your chosen amplifier. The plug-in you should select for subwoofers is either 2-way or 4-way.

When using WinISD, you need to learn it's a free program and it has quirks. The WinISD version (0.7.0.950) that I'm using doesn't simulate wattage well, so I have to convert wattage into voltage. The formula that I use is volts^2/ohms = watts or (ohms X wattage)^0.5 = volts

BTW, Monoprice site is irritating to use, so don't buy from them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I suggested 700 watts as it keeps the driver safe 24/7 and adding more wattage does little SPL wise unless you double the power and then your in real trouble.

Look at a graph of 700 v 800 v 900 v 1800 watts. For the first three you won't see a huge difference (re one you'd be able to audibly discern) in SPL but it is OVER the excursion of the driver. Hitting it with lots of wattage will roast the driver fast and you need to start doubling power to get enough SPL to discern between the two.

And with TWO of them, he will get some decent gain anyway so why risk it with more than 700 watts?

We are literally arguing over a couple db and at 700 watts the sub is still at around 110 db at 20hz and maxes out at 117 db...

Here are my WinISD graphs. Black is 700w, Red is 800z, Orange is 1400w. Notice the VERY LITTLE difference 800w makes over 700, then look at the excursion graph.

Then look at the fact that 1400w is what it needs to be louder and then its excursion. Not worth it, especially since he's building two of these.

I just stated my opinions and reasoning for recommending the Inuke 6000 over the 3000. The OP can decide what works best for him.

That is what I like about these board is getting different input. Maybe he is a more conservative person and wants to save every little bit of money he can and play it safe giving the subs less power. Or maybe he wants to spend more money now and push his subs to get more output even if it is only a couple dB. Maybe he will see how spending $100 more now can save him money in the long run, by not having to buy another amp or a bigger one.

Just another point of view.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
I suggested 700 watts as it keeps the driver safe 24/7 and adding more wattage does little SPL wise unless you double the power and then your in real trouble.

Look at a graph of 700 v 800 v 900 v 1800 watts. For the first three you won't see a huge difference (re one you'd be able to audibly discern) in SPL but it is OVER the excursion of the driver. Hitting it with lots of wattage will roast the driver fast and you need to start doubling power to get enough SPL to discern between the two.

And with TWO of them, he will get some decent gain anyway so why risk it with more than 700 watts?

We are literally arguing over a couple db and at 700 watts the sub is still at around 110 db at 20hz and maxes out at 117 db...

Here are my WinISD graphs. Black is 700w, Red is 800z, Orange is 1400w. Notice the VERY LITTLE difference 800w makes over 700, then look at the excursion graph.

Then look at the fact that 1400w is what it needs to be louder and then its excursion. Not worth it, especially since he's building two of these.
I just stated my opinions and reasoning for recommending the Inuke 6000 over the 3000. The OP can decide what works best for him.

That is what I like about these board is getting different input. Maybe he is a more conservative person and wants to save every little bit of money he can and play it safe giving the subs less power. Or maybe he wants to spend more money now and push his subs to get more output even if it is only a couple dB. Maybe he will see how spending $100 more now can save him money in the long run, by not having to buy another amp or a bigger one.

Just another point of view.

@javeryh I just checked out your theater build. Nice work. I don't see if you had planned on Crowsons or something like that but that would be a good use of the other channel on the Inuke 6000 if you ran the 2 RSS460 off of one channel Just thinking ahead and spending more money for you

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post #22 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 07:11 AM
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If he wants to buy more amp than he needs that's fine, but I'd still recommend limiting the voltage in the iNuke to save his driver.

I'm always hesitant to suggest you stress drivers beyond excursion unless there is a known real world Xmax that's higher than the rated Xmax.

Example: The Dayton Ultimax is know to have 2 or 3 more mm of excursion than rated. So I modeled to make sure I didn't go an above the real world number which is higher than the rated one.

However I dont know the same about the 460HO so I refuse to suggest living on the edge with someone else's gear and money.

He could adjust up as needed but w a stronger amp he may tempted too much and blow the driver.
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a bigger amp is not a bad choice, if you want a little headroom for the electronics or might have a more demanding need for it in the future. You don't have to turn it up to 11 just because it is sitting there, as tempting as it might be. In that regard if you like the iNukes you should consider the 6000DSP, or if you want more margin, something like the Sanway FP14k + a MiniDSP2x4 or one of the big Speakerpower amps would all be fine choices.

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usable excursion on the 460ho is a little over 20mm or so.

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post #25 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 11:18 AM
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usable excursion on the 460ho is a little over 20mm or so.
Using that information I adjusted my WinISD graphs. Max wattage is now 1650 a side, which gets you RIGHT to 20mm. I'm using a 2nd order Butterworth filter at 19hz.

Black is the original 700w recommendation, Orange is the 1400w recommendation, and the NEW RECOMMENDATION in RED is 1650.

With that information you do likely want the iNuke 6000DSP unit as even though its overrated, it should be able to get "close" to 1650wpc @ 4 ohms if not exceede that barely.

I didnt get too deep into research on the iNukes, and I know they've been tested but photobucket killed most of those pictures
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Oh man I typed a long response and lost it.

I am enjoying the discussion! Sounds like I will be all set with the iNuke 6000DSP.
@EndersShadow and @bscool - it is safe to assume that this will be the last subwoofers I buy for maybe ever unless I get a divorce and somehow end up with the house haha. I don't have any frame of reference for what sounds good or not but I do want things to sound better than a sound bar once the theater room is up and running. Since I'm WAY over max budget an extra $100 or whatever for the more powerful amp won't kill me.
@bscool - I already have 2 other amps that came with my seats to power the buttkickers! It's all a bit ridiculous to me but I wanted to go big on my only shot at the dream theater!
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post #27 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
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Oh man I typed a long response and lost it.

I am enjoying the discussion! Sounds like I will be all set with the iNuke 6000DSP.
@EndersShadow and @bscool - it is safe to assume that this will be the last subwoofers I buy for maybe ever unless I get a divorce and somehow end up with the house haha. I don't have any frame of reference for what sounds good or not but I do want things to sound better than a sound bar once the theater room is up and running. Since I'm WAY over max budget an extra $100 or whatever for the more powerful amp won't kill me.
@bscool - I already have 2 other amps that came with my seats to power the buttkickers! It's all a bit ridiculous to me but I wanted to go big on my only shot at the dream theater!
Since your building 2.... yes you will be BEYOND happy. Depending on room gain (which you cant calculate as its diff in each room and based on sub placement) you should get decent output to around "maybe" 15hz.

Can I ask more details about your room in general. Is it fully enclosed, open on one side, etc. How tall are the ceilings, etc.

Pictures also REALLY help.

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post #28 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 02:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Some basic questions about subwoofers

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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Since your building 2.... yes you will be BEYOND happy. Depending on room gain (which you cant calculate as its diff in each room and based on sub placement) you should get decent output to around "maybe" 15hz.



Can I ask more details about your room in general. Is it fully enclosed, open on one side, etc. How tall are the ceilings, etc.



Pictures also REALLY help.


That is good news! My build thread is in my signature with tons of pics.

The room is about 22' x 14'-6" x 8'. It is fully enclosed with a double door entrance. It was fully soundproofed using double drywall construction and green glue on clips and channels to decouple. The top half of the walls are treated with 1" panels for mostly absorption but I did add some reflection areas in the panels based on recommendations. I built Volt 6s for the 4 surrounds and 1099s for the LCR. I have 4 RSL 34Es in the ceiling for Atmos. The LCRs and subs will be placed behind a 130" AT screen and the first row will be about 10.5' away.

It has been a LONG road but we are coming down to the end. The subs are basically the last piece. This entire project was done by reading a million threads on AVS and copying smarter people than me.
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post #29 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 03:01 PM
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Gotcha. As a LAST thought, if you haven't sealed everything up yet..... I'd run some speaker wire to the REAR of the room as you may want to try the subs up front (as planned) and also at the rear.....

Thats a decently sized space, but I think those subs should do you right.

I'm in a 18x16x8 room thats open all over the place so its actually a lot bigger than that. Even with that, with my 18" ultimax and 4x12's in sealed boxes I'm pretty happy.

I'm sure your setup will make you grin ear to ear.

My Setup | Custom MiniDSP Build | FS: If its For Sale, find it all (here)
Quote: There exists, for everyone, a sentence - a series of words - that has the power to destroy you. Another sentence exists, another series of words, that could heal you. If you're lucky you will get the 2nd, but you can be certain of getting the 1st. - Philip K. Dick
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post #30 of 37 Old 09-09-2017, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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I already ran speaker wire to the back of the room "just in case" haha. There is enough wire for 2 more subs back there but I am guessing I'm done. The 2 Stonehenges plus the buttkickers in every seat better be enough!

Next I have to figure out how to hook it all up!
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