2 dayton RSS460HO-4 18 vs 4 si ht18s - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 24 Old 10-06-2017, 01:13 PM - Thread Starter
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2 dayton RSS460HO-4 18 vs 4 si ht18s

I have all my home theater speakers lined out now I'm to the subs. My room is 14x33 in an open basement layout. I'm either going with 2 dayton ho 18s in stonehenge ported enclosures or 4 si ht18 v2s in sealed 4cu boxes. What would you recommend?

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post #2 of 24 Old 10-06-2017, 04:28 PM
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4 sealed si HT18's is the black line. (1200 watts per box, no HPF)
2 dayton HO 18's in stonehenge boxes is the red line (900 watts per box, HPF @ 20hz)
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post #3 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 10:50 AM
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I get quite different results than the above graphs. I am just posting the max SPL graph but even the SPL graph looked much different than kaiforce's. He might be using the old SI HT specs as the new ones have quite a bit more output in the upper bass in modeling.

Pretty unlikely 2 [email protected] are going to be within a couple of dB of output in the upper bass to 4 sealed SI [email protected] Just look at databass and compare the old SI to the RSS and they have very similar output at 71v in the long-term compression graphs. http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=89&mset=96 http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=system&id=90&mset=97


I would go with the 4 sealed, you have more output all around. Also, the RSS460 are exceeding xmax in the graph as you can see by the dips so that is pushing them hard and the SI are not even close to xmax.
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post #4 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 12:57 PM
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why not the si HT18 in stonehenge boxes?

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post #5 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 05:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I get quite different results than the above graphs. I am just posting the max SPL graph but even the SPL graph looked much different than kaiforce's. He might be using the old SI HT specs as the new ones have quite a bit more output in the upper bass in modeling.
I used the params for the V2 unit posted on SI's site. Are these incorrect?

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post #6 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiforce View Post
I used the params for the V2 unit posted on SI's site. Are these incorrect?



It looks like you enter your parameters in Qes and Qts(since they are green) so we have different values. I use the way the WINISD help file says to enter them and WINISD auto calculates Qes and Qts as you can see mine are blue. But they are close enough I dont think it would make a 3dB difference in output.

I tried entering your parameters to compare them and WINISD gives me an error for them, I will attach it below.

Also, you said "4 sealed si HT18's is the black line. (1200 watts per box, no HPF)
2 dayton HO 18's in stonehenge boxes is the red line (900 watts per box, HPF @ 20hz)"

I took it you meant 2400watts total for the 4 sealed? That would be 600 per box/enclosure, that is what I used is 2400watt/600 per driver. Maybe you used 1200w total which would make sense how your numbers are 3-4dB less than mine for the sealed SI's. I think this is why we have the difference in numbers.

From WINISD help file.

"The suggested procedure for entering driver parameters is following (check first that "Auto calculate unknowns" option is checked):

1. Enter Mms and Cms

This gives fs. If either is not available, then enter fs and other parameter.

2. Enter Sd, Bl and Re

Now, you should get all but Qms (and Qts), Vas. Please note that Vas may not match exactly what is specified by manufacturer, because exact value of Vas depends on environmental parameters. See FAQ.

3. Enter Rms or Qms.

Either one will do, although I tend to prefer Qms over Rms, because it can usually be measured in driver measurement procedures.

4. Enter Hc, Hg and Pe.

If Hc or Hg or either is available, then enter Xmax and optionally either Hc or Hg if available.

5. Enter number of voicecoils.

This procedure is most accurate. Also note that it also calculates true SPL (1W/1m) value. So it might not match the marketing SPL value, which is generally somewhat vague. Not in all cases, though.

6. Correct Znom, if necessary.

If there are several voicecoils, then you must be careful when entering parameters in that case, because many manufacturers give Bl in voice coils in series, because it yields double value for Bl against parallel connection. If driver manufacturer gives Qes, Bl and Cms or Mms, then you can check how Bl is specified. For that, you can enter following parameters to calculate Re: Qes, Fs, Mms or Cms and Bl. Connection mode can be changed by changing the combobox selection. The driver editor then converts Bl and Re values accordingly.

Equivalently, you can check for Bl by entering:

Qes, Fs, Mms or Cms and Re (for desired connection mode).

If you enter resistance for parallel connection and get about half of advertised Bl, then you know, that Bl was specified that way."
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post #7 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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Erich told me the new ht18s won't work in the stonehenge. Thing is, by room is a large open basement with stairs going up the main level. I just thought maybe ported would be better for this environment. I currently have on inuke 6000dsp which would be good for the 2 ported Daytons. If I went with 4 sealed ht18s would I need 2 inukes?

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post #8 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 09:51 PM
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Post pictures of your space to show everyone what your trying to fill with bass this will help and might change peoples minds with there options on what build down in your basement.
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post #9 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis9 View Post
Erich told me the new ht18s won't work in the stonehenge. Thing is, by room is a large open basement with stairs going up the main level. I just thought maybe ported would be better for this environment. I currently have on inuke 6000dsp which would be good for the 2 ported Daytons. If I went with 4 sealed ht18s would I need 2 inukes?

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Did Erich say why they won’t work in the stonehenge? I am just curious because I have the new HT18 in a ported cube from diysg and it sounds great. I believe the cabinets are similar size and tuning wise. Just different shape. Thanks


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post #10 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 10:25 PM - Thread Starter
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He just said the way the specs work out it needs larger ported box with the v2s.

And here are a few PICS. @eng-399 suggested ported over sealed and I believe that's probably the route I'll be going.

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post #11 of 24 Old 10-07-2017, 10:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I like that the stonehenges are only 16" deep which helps on space with a false wall.

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post #12 of 24 Old 10-09-2017, 08:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nemesis9 View Post
Erich told me the new ht18s won't work in the stonehenge. I currently have on inuke 6000dsp which would be good for the 2 ported Daytons. If I went with 4 sealed ht18s would I need 2 inukes?
Here is the RSS460HO vs. the HT-18v2 in the ported stonehenge:


With room gain and some DSP to pull down a peak ~50Hz I think you'd be fine using the HT-18 in the ported flat pack. The 460 was modeled with 700W because any more would exceed xmax where as the HT-18 was only at about 16mm which is a piece of cake for that driver.

If you're going to go sealed with the HT, in my experience 6 cubes is the smallest you can go for it to reach it's xmax with a safe power level. Any smaller and you'll have to give it unsafe power levels to reach it's xmax. I modeled 4 HT's each in 6 cubes with just enough power to reach xmax vs. 2 of the 460HO's in stonehenges:


The 4 sealed would be my choice and yes, you'll need another 6kW amp.

If you don't have the setup to build your own cab and you like the stonehenge footprint, I would get the stonehenge boxes and seal the port opening. This will probably get you close to 6 cubic feet for the HT's. Stuff with polyfill, apply the proper DSP with low shelf etc.
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post #13 of 24 Old 10-09-2017, 10:02 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Here is the RSS460HO vs. the HT-18v2 in the ported stonehenge:


With room gain and some DSP to pull down a peak ~50Hz I think you'd be fine using the HT-18 in the ported flat pack. The 460 was modeled with 700W because any more would exceed xmax where as the HT-18 was only at about 16mm which is a piece of cake for that driver.

If you're going to go sealed with the HT, in my experience 6 cubes is the smallest you can go for it to reach it's xmax with a safe power level. Any smaller and you'll have to give it unsafe power levels to reach it's xmax. I modeled 4 HT's each in 6 cubes with just enough power to reach xmax vs. 2 of the 460HO's in stonehenges:


The 4 sealed would be my choice and yes, you'll need another 6kW amp.

If you don't have the setup to build your own cab and you like the stonehenge footprint, I would get the stonehenge boxes and seal the port opening. This will probably get you close to 6 cubic feet for the HT's. Stuff with polyfill, apply the proper DSP with low shelf etc.
I guess I'm a little shocked it seems the ht18s out perform the Daytons. I never even thought of sealing the Stonehenge and using the ht18. I liked the Stonehenge because of the depth and would work nice in my wall. So our think 2 ht18 v2s in Stonehenge sealed would be better than the Daytons ported? Or even ported vs ported looks like it does better.

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post #14 of 24 Old 10-09-2017, 10:15 PM
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I'd choose the HT in sealed because it's the optimum volume of cab for the driver. The HT really wants a huge box when it comes to ported and I like the HT over the 460HO because it's significantly more displacement for the dollar.
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post #15 of 24 Old 10-10-2017, 09:03 AM
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@Shreds Why would he need 2 Inuke 6000 to power 4 SI Ht18s?

Wouldn't an Inuke 3000 work if he only wants to give them around 550-600 watts each? He can run 2 per channel at 2ohm on the Inuke [email protected] at 2 ohms per channel.

Edit nevermind I see he already owns an Inuke 6000.

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post #16 of 24 Old 10-10-2017, 11:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Well 4 subs is out of the question for me at the moment. It's going to come down to the 2 in which box.

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post #17 of 24 Old 10-10-2017, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
@Shreds Why would he need 2 Inuke 6000 to power 4 SI Ht18s?

Wouldn't an Inuke 3000 work if he only wants to give them around 550-600 watts each? He can run 2 per channel at 2ohm on the Inuke [email protected] at 2 ohms per channel.
From my understanding, the NU6000 is 2 bridged NU3000's. That is why the 3k is 2 ohm stable and can be bridged but the 6k is 4 ohm stable and can't be bridged, -each channel is technically already bridged.

Since the best case sustained out of a NU6k per channel is ~1200W(average), https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post54641174
...The NU3k would share this number out of both it's channels bridged to 4 ohms or stereo to 2 ohms (600W per channel).

In 6 cubes, the HT-18v2 requires ~1000W to reach it's rated xmax (I will post a video about this in the Dually Mammoth thread soon). This is more than the manufacturer's recommended maximum but has been proven to be safe as long as the user avoids low frequency sustained synthetic tones or clipping the signal chain. For this kind of listening one should go for the HST line.
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post #18 of 24 Old 10-10-2017, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
From my understanding, the NU6000 is 2 bridged NU3000's. That is why the 3k is 2 ohm stable and can be bridged but the 6k is 4 ohm stable and can't be bridged, -each channel is technically already bridged.

Since the best case sustained out of a NU6k per channel is ~1200W(average), https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...l#post54641174
...The NU3k would share this number out of both it's channels bridged to 4 ohms or stereo to 2 ohms (600W per channel).

In 6 cubes, the HT-18v2 requires ~1000W to reach it's rated xmax (I will post a video about this in the Dually Mammoth thread soon). This is more than the manufacturer's recommended maximum but has been proven to be safe as long as the user avoids low frequency sustained synthetic tones or clipping the signal chain. For this kind of listening one should go for the HST line.
So these tests are not correct or done differently? I admit I do not understand much about amp testing.

"With resistive loads, power output at clipping was pretty darn close to:
300Wrms/8ohm/channel
600Wrms/4ohm/channel
1000Wrms/2ohm/channel"

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class...surements.html

Edit also found this. http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/4...#comment-14456

"NU4-6000 - Stereo - 2ohm (essentially a iNuke 3000) "


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post #19 of 24 Old 10-10-2017, 05:25 PM
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So these tests are not correct or done differently? I admit I do not understand much about amp testing.

"With resistive loads, power output at clipping was pretty darn close to:
300Wrms/8ohm/channel
600Wrms/4ohm/channel
1000Wrms/2ohm/channel"
Sure seems suspect to me. But then again he didn't list what source material he tested with, what frequency(ies) used, or the duration of the signal so it's impossible to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
"NU4-6000 - Stereo - 2ohm (essentially a iNuke 3000) "

These are burst data, I listed sustained numbers. You can only guess average power based on these figures. Scroll down to where Luke shows this for sustained output at 20Hz:
2ohm two channels driven:
103Vpp / 663w RMA for 12s





663Waverage -A lot closer to my guess and note: this is not the same amp as a NU3000. The 4 channel DUT still has the PSU of a NU6k which will give it more to work with with only 2 channels driven than the NU3k has to offer.
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post #20 of 24 Old 10-10-2017, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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What about peak power on the Daytons being 1800 vs the ht18s 600? Guess I'm little confused

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What about peak power on the Daytons being 1800 vs the ht18s 600? Guess I'm little confused
Confused about what specifically? The Daytons have a 3" coil and the SI's have a 2.5" coil. So the 3" coil will deal with a bit more power before it melts than the 2.5" coil will. The average power handling of the Daytons is rated at 900W and the SI's is 600W. The peak power handling of the Daytons is rated at 1800W and the SI's is 1200W.

I have confirmed that the SI's will reach xmax in 6 cubes sealed if you give them ~1000W as long as you set up your signal chain properly and not abuse them with sustained low frequency source.

The drivers are both very close to the same efficiency. It comes down to excursion. The SI's have almost double the excursion as the Daytons. This means more output. Look up displacement and how there's no replacement. If you push the Daytons with 1kW of low frequency content in even 4 cubes sealed, you'll be buying new drivers because they'll jump right out of the box regardless of the higher sustained power handling of the coil.

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post #22 of 24 Old 10-11-2017, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
The drivers are both very close to the same efficiency. It comes down to excursion. The SI's have almost double the excursion as the Daytons. This means more output. Look up displacement and how there's no replacement. If you push the Daytons with 1kW of low frequency content in even 4 cubes sealed, you'll be buying new drivers because they'll jump right out of the box regardless of the higher sustained power handling of the coil.
Deleted because apparently I can't read today . My apologies to @Shreds

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I'm confused by this statement.
Yeah I guess so. Read the thread title. Not discussing the Ultimax as they are out of stock at the moment anyway.
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Yeah I guess so. Read the thread title. Not discussing the Ultimax as they are out of stock at the moment anyway.
Yup, reading comprehension is apparently not in my wheelhouse today. You are absolutely right, my apologies. I removed my post as it is absolutely off topic
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