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post #1 of 70 Old 10-21-2017, 02:37 PM - Thread Starter
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HTM vs Fusion

I was wondering if there is a significant difference in the SQ between the HTM and Fusion models. HTM10 would be too big for me. So if I go with HTM model, I would have to pick HTM6. Similarly Fusion 10 would be too big and too heavy for me. So I would have to go with Fusion 8 (not Fusion 6). I am leaning towards HTM6 as they sell an assembled crossover and I am not adept at soldering.

I have used Klipch Reference series bookshelf and towers and also the Klipsch KG series bookself and towers. I had to use manual EQ (drop 2khz by some 4-5 db) to reduce the forwardness of the Klipsch speakers. I dont want to end up with the same SQ when I go with the horn tweeters on HTM or Fusion models. The main reason I picked these DIY models is due to their price and high sensitivity. I will be using Denon AVR 3310CI. Mostly 2.1 music. Now I have Def Tech CLR 2002 for LCR and Sunfire sub. I dont like the Def Techs as the high end is not smooth. I also have Boston Acoustics CR85's and I like them better than the Def Techs.

I would appreciate some feedback regarding the SQ of these horn tweeters (Denova 205+ SEOS/EOS waveguide). Thanks
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post #2 of 70 Old 10-21-2017, 04:59 PM
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I have a fusion6 cc with the EOS horn in the mancave - it puts the klipsch rb51 bookshelf speakers to shame when tested against each other

a pair of the fusion 8' would be very good for almost medium rooms, depending on taste and expectations, add a resaonable sub for music and get happy

you can get the xo's soldered for you for not an immoderate cost, ask around - happens a lot more than we hear about

as the 205 fits the design of the f8 and the 150 is for the f6, then that 205 should be very good for a proven /tested (to death i bet) design
as the 150 in my F6 cc does extremely well, usually music in the mancave, 8.2 system with a denon x4000.

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post #3 of 70 Old 10-21-2017, 05:15 PM
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Nothing to add to the SQ of either speaker , but an option for the XO assembly , google "makerspace" and look in your area for one , they are clubs of sorts you can go to and use equipment , learn things like soldering welding , etc. , I'm sure you could get someone to do them up for you , or teach you how to , so you can do your next set .
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post #4 of 70 Old 10-21-2017, 07:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Just wondering why there is no HTM8. Is it coming soon?
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post #5 of 70 Old 10-21-2017, 07:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Could anyone please let me know the weight of the HTM10 kit and also the correct weight of the HTM10 flat pack. The kit weight is not in the DIYSG website. The HTM10 flat pack is listed as 12lb but for its size and 18mm thick MDF, I thought it would be heavier than 12lbs.
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post #6 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 11:56 AM
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@Mupi , DIYSG is slowly converting the MDF flat packs to a new high grade, Carb 2 compliant, ultralight MDF. I believe the HTM line was the first to be converted, so the HTM flat packs are much lighter than they would be with standard weight MDF. The baffles are still dense MDF that's not light weight.
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post #7 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 12:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks. So ultralight also means ultra coarse? :-) That also means more damping material required? They have also reduced the thickness from 3/4" to 18mm. The image of the ultralight MDF in this link looks very coarse to me. A bit concerned now.

http://www.wurthwoodgroup.com/Medium...ht-P77563.aspx
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post #8 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 03:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mupi View Post
Thanks. So ultralight also means ultra coarse? :-) That also means more damping material required? They have also reduced the thickness from 3/4" to 18mm. The image of the ultralight MDF in this link looks very coarse to me. A bit concerned now.

http://www.wurthwoodgroup.com/Medium...ht-P77563.aspx
That looks like OSB.

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post #9 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 03:49 PM
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There are different brands and different styles of ultralight MDF available on the market. I wouldn't assume they all look or perform alike. I would expect the DIYSG folks to be able to pick the best of the lot.
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post #10 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 04:33 PM
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There is nothing wrong with the ultralight mdf used for the HTM’s. It’s very high quality


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post #11 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 06:08 PM
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There's no difference in the ultralight mdf and the mdf used in the other flat packs......it's just lighter. You really can't tell them apart other than the weight. The front baffles on the HTM 10 and 12" are made from 1" highly refined MDF. It's almost considered high density instead of medium density. The HTM's were designed to be very light weight, so that's why ultralight was used on those first.


I had problems trying to find the right 8" neo magnet woofer for the HTM-8. But I did get some in about a month ago and that model will be getting started very soon.

There will also be a center channel done at some point, we're just debating if it should use 8" or 10" woofers. Kind of leaning towards the 10".

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post #12 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 07:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Eric. So I presume the weight of 12 lbs for the HTM10 flat pack is the correct weight. Could you please give the shipping weight of the HTM10 kit. I read in a post that the Fusion 10 assembled is some 65lbs. I just didnt want to end up with something that heavy after I put together HTM10. Hence the concerns about the weight of the HTM10.

I am sure there are people who would go for a HTM center with 10" woofers. But for many like myself who cant deal with bigger/heavier stuff, 8" would be a good option for the center. In fact if there is going to be a HTM8 bookshelf, then I would most likely go with the HTM8 for bookshelf and center as well. Why not give both 8 and 10 for the center :-)

I have looked at other centers at DIYSG with 8" woofers (I guess Cinema 8) and they probably weigh over 50lb as the flat pack itself is 30lbs. I am hoping a HTM8 center would not be that heavy due to the light weight MDF.

It would be very useful if your website gave the overall weight of each model in the respective sections. It could just be the sum of the weight of all components instead of an accurate weight of the assembled speaker as you are not going to assemble each model just to get the weight. or if you give the weight of the kit and flat pack in their sections, that would be fine too. Right now, some of the kits or flat packs dont have the weight on the web site.
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post #13 of 70 Old 10-22-2017, 09:32 PM
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The Fusion-10 is much less than 65lbs. You might be thinking of the Fusion-12. The Fusion-10 is probably closer to 40lbs.

I haven't bothered with listing weights too much because people sometimes build the kits with their own wood.

I would have to weigh one of the HTM-10 flat packs tomorrow and let you know their weight. They are very light though because we figured some people might actually hang them on the walls behind a screen.

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post #14 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 05:40 AM
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I truly love my Fusion 10's....that is all!
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post #15 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 09:06 AM
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I suppose knowing the weights going in can set a basis wrt to usage / placement / anchoring and the actual physical structure involved . .

everybody's place is different

and there isn't any one of us who hasn't needed / advanced from an extra hand and constructive / imaginative engineering every now and then

but making the weight a factor for the performance of a speaker, yeah, not feeling it - .02

don't think that's a prominent factor when these designed were birthed

when I had the thought and experience that the 15" SEOS horns are totally F'n awesome, and that as maybe those horns in a pair of surrounds couldn't be anything but synergistic in terms of adding to the overall mojo of a system, especially at about 70-75-80 ahead of the MLP
i replaced the F4's with a pair of nice thin 88 Specials.
at 52#, getting them onto the right place and permanently so seemed like some sort of challenge, considering we all want(and sometimes get) universal flexibility (NOT Flexigirls!) for optimal speaker swilt and tivel aiming.

my on wall solution was a pair of #3411 full motion mounts (monoprice) and 9" hangman strips for plop on /plop off ease and assuredness. serendipitously, the studs were in the right place but i was prepared to go to a load plate if needed wrt placement . .

so if the speaker is suitable for both performance and budget and placement options,
the weight becomes secondary and 'dealing' iwth it is just part of the fun . .

Submaximus V3 weighs about 350#. a beefy refrigerator dolly and 2 other guys and my modded dolly it sits on,
a paragon of domesticated speaker for staying where it is put: SIT!

so if the OP needs help wrt to plaecement / whatever due to the weight,

The AVS community is world wide and helpfulness a mere question or 2 away
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post #16 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 10:00 AM
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HTM-10 shipping weight with cabinet: 32lbs

Fusion-10 shipping weight with cabinet: 46lbs

There's probably about 4lbs of packaging material in each one.

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post #17 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 10:09 AM
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Speaker weight may not be an issue for some but it certainly is for others, so the ultralight MDF is a nice added feature that will hopefully expand to being available on many more models. Citing even an approximate total weight for each complete speaker model when built with the DIYSG flat pack would be more useful than shipping weight of individual components which includes the weight of packing materials. As a former webmaster for my wife's no longer active small business I realize what a pain it is to keep a website up to date. But keeping the information more current on the DIYSG website would be something that would be greatly appreciated by many.
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post #18 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
There's no difference in the ultralight mdf and the mdf used in the other flat packs......it's just lighter. You really can't tell them apart other than the weight. The front baffles on the HTM 10 and 12" are made from 1" highly refined MDF. It's almost considered high density instead of medium density. The HTM's were designed to be very light weight, so that's why ultralight was used on those first.


I had problems trying to find the right 8" neo magnet woofer for the HTM-8. But I did get some in about a month ago and that model will be getting started very soon.

There will also be a center channel done at some point, we're just debating if it should use 8" or 10" woofers. Kind of leaning towards the 10".
erich i didnt have a chance to talk to mtg90 but i think the slower sales of the htm6 is due to the high crossover frequency. i will buy some other htms to go with my htm12 lcr but the 6s give pause. it might be worth considering going a little bigger on the htm6 enclosure so folks could cross at 80hz....just my 2c. great to hear you have 8s in progress.
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post #19 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 11:30 AM
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The HTM-6 would have no problem crossing over at 80hz or even a little lower.

I don't think people order them because they seem too small. MTG-90 was thinking about making a short video showing how loud they can actually play because most people would be really surprised. Shame there wasn't a pair at the GTG.

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post #20 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
The HTM-6 would have no problem crossing over at 80hz or even a little lower.

I don't think people order them because they seem too small. MTG-90 was thinking about making a short video showing how loud they can actually play because most people would be really surprised. Shame there wasn't a pair at the GTG.
Send me a pair and I will bring them to the next DFW GtG.
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post #21 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 06:44 PM - Thread Starter
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HTM-10 shipping weight with cabinet: 32lbs

Fusion-10 shipping weight with cabinet: 46lbs

There's probably about 4lbs of packaging material in each one.
Thanks Eric. HTM10 should not be a problem at all. In the case of Fusion10, could you please let me know if you can ship the kit and flat pack separately as they would reduce the shipping weight and it will be easier for me to move it from work to home. I am not sure how to pay for the additional S&H if it all going to be a single order.
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post #22 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
The HTM-6 would have no problem crossing over at 80hz or even a little lower.

I don't think people order them because they seem too small. MTG-90 was thinking about making a short video showing how loud they can actually play because most people would be really surprised. Shame there wasn't a pair at the GTG.
I'm torn right now between the HTM-6 and Fusion-8 for LCR. Do you have a preference between these 2? Thanks.
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post #23 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 08:20 PM
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The HTM-6...
I was going to look at this, but in every browser I get some variation of:AUTHENTICATION REQUIRED http://diysoundgroup.com is requesting your username and password. The site says: “Access Restricted (suspend)”

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The site is being worked on.

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post #25 of 70 Old 10-23-2017, 08:51 PM
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I'm torn right now between the HTM-6 and Fusion-8 for LCR. Do you have a preference between these 2? Thanks.


I vote for the F8. Love mine. At 96db sensitivity, they get louder than you think.
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post #26 of 70 Old 10-24-2017, 05:05 AM
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The site is being worked on.
Oh, that explains that! I was actually poking around trying to figure out how tovget a password reset when I found this thread!

BTW, thanks for all your efforts Eric -- it is much appreciated!

I'm an engineer and what I do is sift through data. The reason I didn't consider the htm6 was efficiency. The cinema 8s, fusion 8s, and the fusion 8 center are all really efficient -- the htm6 a bit less so. I didnt used to worry much about efficiency (I've been building loudspeakers off and in for more than 30 years), but over the last several years I've come to realize that the more efficient speakers just sound a lot more effortless and well, mo betta. I also feel like having a smaller driver for a given frequency usually gives more appreciable detail.

EVERYTHING, of course, is a compromise; but for me, I want the smallest driver in the bass of the satellite that will blend with the chosen sub. IMO the 6" driver would be fine with a 10-12" sub, but if you start looking at an 18", or dual 18" drivers, I think that is a lot to ask for a single 6" driver to meet -- especially at high output levels.

For me the 8" are a good compromise -- small enough to provide good mid-range detail, but large enough to meet the bigger subs well on the low end. I don't have access to the site right now, but I'm thnking I'm remembering that the volt 6s are pretty small (and thus lightweight) and would probably mesh well with a 10-12" sub (I thought they were a little more efficient, but if I had a memory I could have been a doctor! ). In any case I'd lean toward the fusion 8s for those reasons.

Will the site be up soon? I'm having withdrawals!!
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post #27 of 70 Old 10-24-2017, 07:01 PM
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Yes, but how much better is the compression driver in the htm-6 vs. the fusion 8? It's quite a bit more expensive. What is the "real world" difference in sound quality?
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Yes, but how much better is the compression driver in the htm-6 vs. the fusion 8? It's quite a bit more expensive. What is the "real world" difference in sound quality?
Really good question! Personally, I would prefer the mor expensive compression driver flanked by dual 8s, for the reason I listed. Especially for the LCR boxes where most of the sound and or music originates. It doesn't appear to be an option, but I still believe that a single 6, down somewhat on efficiency is going to have a tough time mating with dual 18s! Personally I would happily pay for the upgrade. I think it would also allow a bit lower xover point as well, but that is likely a secondary benefit. Jeff Bagby got a little spare time he could whip the xover of the cinema 8/fusion 8 centers to take the better driver? I'd be willing to ante up in terns of the more expensive drivers AND contribute to the xover mod fund!
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post #29 of 70 Old 10-25-2017, 07:32 AM
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I vote for the F8. Love mine. At 96db sensitivity, they get louder than you think.


I agree. Those F8’s impressed me big time. They really are all most sane people need in a normal (AVS standard) setup.

They sounded really really good. Don’t let the more expensive compression driver guide your decision. More expensive doesn’t equal better. They are chosen for design reasons.

I have heard both the 205 and the 325 and they both sound great in their respective designs.


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post #30 of 70 Old 10-25-2017, 09:32 AM
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I agree. Those F8’s impressed me big time. They really are all most sane people need in a normal (AVS standard) setup.

They sounded really really good. Don’t let the more expensive compression driver guide your decision. More expensive doesn’t equal better. They are chosen for design reasons.

I have heard both the 205 and the 325 and they both sound great in their respective designs.


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Thank you for your insight, this really helps. Makes my decision easier. I have been looking at the f8 for quite a while now as it seems fit my respective setup the best, size-wise - especially since they offer the horizontal center channel. Just thought the htm-6 could be a substantially better speaker since it has more expensive components.
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