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post #121 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 06:15 AM
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12" JBL speaker $29 on black friday at Bestbuy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
Hey guys I have a question...

I thought the difference between the 1200 and the 1214 was just 1 coil vs. 2 but then I came across this on JBL's site:

https://www.jbl.com/on/demandware.st...lish%20EU).pdf

It shows a driver with 2 magnet slugs instead of one and claims 21mm as one way xmax instead of 12mm. Anyone measure the xmax on one of these in real life and if so, which model number was it? Is the CS a different driver than the CX?
Interesting.... the plot thickens (related to the 1200)

From this thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
I grabbed a pair of these just to check out, I thought I would share the T/S specs I measured on one after some break in:

* This data was exported from DATS the Dayton Audio Test System
*
* Manufacturer: JBL
* Model: CS1214 #1
* Piston Diameter = 260.4 mm
* f(s)= 25.57 Hz
* R(e)= 3.439 Ohms
* Z(max)= 40.8 Ohms
* Q(ms)= 6.488
* Q(es)= 0.5972
* Q(ts)= 0.5468
* V(as)= 104.6 liters (3.694 cubic feet)
* L(e)= 3.16 mH
* n(0)= 0.2792 %
* SPL= 86.56 1W/1m (90.72dB 2.83v/1m)
* M(ms)= 147.4 grams
* C(ms)= 0.263 mm/N
* BL= 11.68

A few other thoughts, I would not use these past about 15mm as the spider really locks up beyond that point and audible distortion ramps up quite a bit when trying to push them further. But they are nice and quiet up to rated xmax. The 1260w/1262w followed a similar pattern. Likely designed with durability in mind to prevent over excursion and bottoming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
Identical specs to the CS1214 (meaning the CX1200).
https://a.d-cd.net/a59817u-960.jpg

Looks like all JBL did is change the name in the technical sheet.

Only difference between the woofers is likely to be the dust caps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
mtg90 measured the t/s parameters on this 1214 and they were a little different from the published specs.
But lastly, here is a direct compare between the two spec sheets....

Notice the one from Matt (from his quote) looks different than the one you just posted @Shreds

If the T/S from Matts are right, its the same driver. Otherwise I'm not sure what to say....



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post #122 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 06:21 AM
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@Shreds , from what I've read consensus is the only difference between the CS1214 and CX1200 is the dust cap. Examining images of the two drivers the only visible difference appears to be the dust cap. It's widely believed the 21mm Xmax for the 1214 is an error and it should be the same 12mm as the 1200. I believe Xmax is calculated by (Hvc-Hag)/2, which equates to 12mm on both the 1200 and 1214. But someone with better technical knowledge than me will have to verify that.
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post #123 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 06:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
^^ Are you sure?
I'm not sure of anything, that's why I'm asking but I'm sure that the spec sheet and the "specification sheet" are different.

Looks like different mag slugs to me:


One way to find out... free air the thing and measure the travel. Who's up for making a video?
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post #124 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I'm not sure of anything, that's why I'm asking but I'm sure that the spec sheet and the "specification sheet" are different.

Looks like different mag slugs to me:

One way to find out... free air the thing and measure the travel. Who's up for making a video?
Did you see my TS side by sides of the images for the drivers? Looks like they just got lazy on making it perfect on each one lol.....

Here are the manufacture driver pics of each driver, looks like the same slugs to me.

CX1200


CS1214


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post #125 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
I'm not sure of anything, that's why I'm asking but I'm sure that the spec sheet and the "specification sheet" are different.

Looks like different mag slugs to me:


One way to find out... free air the thing and measure the travel. Who's up for making a video?
As have been showed with pics and spec drawings above of both: they look the same. The 21mm one way Xmax is a conondrum however.

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post #126 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 06:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post

It will be replacing this:

Love this pic

In fact so much so, i just ordered 4 of these. Damn you

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post #127 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Love this pic

In fact so much so, i just ordered 4 of these. Damn you
LOL... its the box from this build here in case you want the specs for some reason lol. I bought it off Raylon about a year plus ago with the Infinity 1260s in it and then moved to the JBL 1200's (since I bought 16 of them lol). ... As you can see its only 8" deep but in my case, I am working on making it fit my sectional better than it does now (wife wont go for a wider sofa table which would help quite a bit for now.

If I had my actual druthers, I'd build a sofa table (that was actually a sub box) across the entire back of my sectional that was 14" deep x 30" tall x 110" long. On the side facing the seats there would be a 1" inset and then all 16 12" drivers would be loaded back there lol. 8 rows of 2 drivers each with a bit of spacing.... I would then attach that box to a very thin riser that my sectional was on and I'd get all the tactile feel and SPL I'd ever need lol. But thats not happening
Nalleh and wassup like this.

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post #128 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 07:12 AM
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As someone who spent part of my life in the publishing business, the most likely explanation for the 21mm Xmas in some CS1214 specs is that it was a simple transposition of 12 to 21 that wasn't caught by proof readers. It's one of the more common mistakes made in the publishing business.

Darn you people! My TN-1220HO is working just fine. I don't really need something that will essentially duplicate its performance. But the allure of the no cuts, no glue sonosub has overcome my inherent nature not to spend money foolishly. Amazon is getting a new shipment of CS1214s in a few days and I just placed my order. So $89.80 now committed to the project.

I think I'm going to revive the not cuts/no glue thread started by @LastButNotLeast and post the rest of my experience there, returning this thread to discussion more specifically related to the driver:

avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2205849-sonotube-proof-concept-no-cuts-no-glue.html
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post #129 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave in Green View Post
As someone who spent part of my life in the publishing business, the most likely explanation for the 21mm Xmas in some CS1214 specs is that it was a simple transposition of 12 to 21 that wasn't caught by proof readers. It's one of the more common mistakes made in the publishing business.

Darn you people! My TN-1220HO is working just fine. I don't really need something that will essentially duplicate its performance. But the allure of the no cuts, no glue sonosub has overcome my inherent nature not to spend money foolishly. Amazon is getting a new shipment of CS1214s in a few days and I just placed my order. So $89.80 now committed to the project.

I think I'm going to revive the not cuts/no glue thread started by @LastButNotLeast and post the rest of my experience there, returning this thread to discussion more specifically related to the driver:

avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/2205849-sonotube-proof-concept-no-cuts-no-glue.html
Yeah, if the inverse was true (its supposed to be 21 NOT 12)...... then we would have a whole nother monster on our hands lol.... but given the sim's with the driver and Matts testing, I'm going with 12mm as the rated XMax and 15mm as the "real world limit" XMax if you REAAAALLLLY want to push it. My current plan to power these leaves them under that by a fair margin and I'm totally ok with that lol....

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post #130 of 2352 Old 04-06-2018, 09:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shreds View Post
One way to find out... free air the thing and measure the travel. Who's up for making a video?
I got you dawg. Gonna run the ST ship flip scene at +10 over reference.
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post #131 of 2352 Old 04-07-2018, 07:29 AM
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I've yet to see a CS-1214 specification sheet that shows its Hvc-Hag/2 = 21mm. The only CS-1214 spec sheet I've seen citing its Hvc and Hag shows Hvc = 32mm and Hag = 7.8mm. Basic math says 32mm - 7.8mm = 24.2mm/2 = 12.1mm.
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post #132 of 2352 Old 04-12-2018, 09:00 AM
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Hmm, discovered another version of this driver: GTX1200. Same spec different dust cap:

https://eu.jbl.com/GT-X1200_.html






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post #133 of 2352 Old 04-12-2018, 04:14 PM
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Yup looks like the European version


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (so ignore any typos grammatical errors because my iPhone predictive text stinks)

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post #134 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 12:56 AM - Thread Starter
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wow, honored that I started a thread with this much interest. I do have the gt5's which made me a fan. Despite being a cheap driver, they really look the part.

For the money, I think they're great. I really wanted to do the dual opposed setup with 4 of these or maybe 8. They aren't on special now but I'm guessing they will be on special again somewhere or in some form.


keep up the great work!

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post #135 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 01:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Yup looks like the European version


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (so ignore any typos grammatical errors because my iPhone predictive text stinks)
Yup, found these GTX in Sweden for half of what i paid for the 4 CS i got here in Norway. What would be better, 4 in 2ft3 boxes or 8 in 1ft3 boxes?

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post #136 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Yup, found these GTX in Sweden for half of what i paid for the 4 CS i got here in Norway. What would be better, 4 in 2ft3 boxes or 8 in 1ft3 boxes?
I'm going to guess (dont have models in front of me).... that 8 will give you more SPL around 50hz and up, while giving you the same low end as 4 in larger boxes. The smaller boxes will be able to (and need) more wattage to reach XMax than the larger boxes....

So if your looking for kick, get 8 in smaller boxes. Your low low might roll off a bit compared to 4 in larger boxes, but you should be able to add DSP to bring that up, assuming you have enough power for it.

Personally buy em while you can. You can always build bigger boxes, and the cost of wood tends to be stable.... finding more drivers at that price (once they are almost or are gone) is normally much harder.

Thats why I bought 4 extra 1214's. Can't beat 26 bucks a driver. They are now north of 40 a pop here in the US.

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post #137 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 06:28 AM
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You’re not making this easy for me! I though i was set with 4 .....


Well, considering 1 inuke 6K:

4x CS, 2 in series=8ohm on each channel= 1100 W pr channel /2= 550W pr driver.
8x CS, 2x2 in series+parallel=4ohm on each channel= 2200W pr channel /4= 550W pr driver

Correct?

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post #138 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 06:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rr14 View Post
... They aren't on special now but I'm guessing they will be on special again somewhere or in some form. ...
The last few units of discontinued JBL CS1214 drivers with identical performance to the CX1200 are still available but I would expect stock to run out in the near future as only a few vendors are still advertising them. I ordered mine through Amazon @$42 each and they're scheduled for delivery to my home today. Given that msrp for the CX1200 is $130 and they are occasionally on sale at half price (~$65) the $29 sale price may well have been a one-time deal for last year's Black Friday that may not be repeated as vendors don't put the same items on sale every Black Friday. I consider the current CS1214 price of $42 to realistically be the lowest price we can expect to see for any version of this driver or I wouldn't have pulled the trigger.
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post #139 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
You’re not making this easy for me! I though i was set with 4 .....


Well, considering 1 inuke 6K:

4x CS, 2 in series=8ohm on each channel= 1100 W pr channel /2= 550W pr driver.
8x CS, 2x2 in series+parallel=4ohm on each channel= 2200W pr channel /4= 550W pr driver

Correct?
I think your right... its too early for me to start doing ohm math lol.... but the 8 drivers (in smaller boxes) should be ok with 550 watts per driver. I'm not so sure that the larger box (with the same wattage given to the driver), will keep it under 15mm of excursion....

And again, if the goal is tactile feel/punch that tends to be in the upper end of the frequency range, where more drivers in smaller boxes will help. Plus the more drivers you have, the less they have to move to really provide some punch, which isnt a bad thing at all. And the less they move, the lower the distortion, which is also good....

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post #140 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 04:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
What would be better, 4 in 2ft3 boxes or 8 in 1ft3 boxes?

Here you go....

8 CS1214 each in a 1 cf box for a total of 8 cf (blue)
4 CS1214 each in a 2 cf box for a total of 8 cf (red)

So here is the thing.... I was right lol...

Excursion


The larger box can only handle 1200 watts COMBINED (300 watts per driver) before it gets close to XMax (I intentionally left some in the tank)
The smaller box can handle 5000 watts COMBINED (625 per driver) before getting around the same amount of cone movement....

However, look at the MASSIVE SPL differences...... especially in the "chest kick area (around 60hz).

@ 60hz: 132 v 123
@ 40hz: 128 v 120
@ 20hz: 115 v 109

PS I put a 4th order lowpass at 80hz since thats what most AVR's tend to set the LFE channel too, and thats what order filter they use as well...
SPL




Keep in mind, these are BEFORE room gain (which if you are super close, you may not get...

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post #141 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 05:53 PM
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Just to close out the CS1214 Xmax question, mine arrived today and the detailed tech data sheets accompanying the drivers show Xmax is 12.1mm. The 21mm shown on the CS1214 marketing sheet is erroneous.
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post #142 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 08:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Here you go....

8 CS1214 each in a 1 cf box for a total of 8 cf (blue)
4 CS1214 each in a 2 cf box for a total of 8 cf (red)

So here is the thing.... I was right lol...

Excursion


The larger box can only handle 1200 watts COMBINED (300 watts per driver) before it gets close to XMax (I intentionally left some in the tank)
The smaller box can handle 5000 watts COMBINED (625 per driver) before getting around the same amount of cone movement....

However, look at the MASSIVE SPL differences...... especially in the "chest kick area (around 60hz).

@ 60hz: 132 v 123
@ 40hz: 128 v 120
@ 20hz: 115 v 109

PS I put a 4th order lowpass at 80hz since thats what most AVR's tend to set the LFE channel too, and thats what order filter they use as well...
SPL




Keep in mind, these are BEFORE room gain (which if you are super close, you may not get...

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Ok, unless i am missing something; that’s insane !!!
So step one:
4x CS,+ one Inuke 6K and some wood= 109 dB @20hz (more as you go up)
Add 4xCS(small increase in total cost)= 115 dB @20hz (more as you go up)

Altough the curves look the same (and my test show the same) , i don’t see any downfall with more driver in smaller boxes.

Anyway, as you say nothing a inuke DSP or a Minidsp can’t fix.

As i watched my drivers earlier doing the EOT test, i was amazed at the amount of cone movement on this cheap ass S-O-B as the Hz went down. It really performs exellent for what it is. Even down to 10Hz.

And main point: in nearfield placement even if it doesn’t match my farfield sono’s , the TR is MILES better. Amazingly so !
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post #143 of 2352 Old 04-13-2018, 08:19 PM
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Ok, unless i am missing something; that’s insane !!!
So step one:
4x CS,+ one Inuke 6K and some wood= 109 dB @20hz (more as you go up)
Add 4xCS(small increase in total cost)= 115 dB @20hz (more as you go up)

Altough the curves look the same (and my test show the same) , i don’t see any downfall with more driver in smaller boxes.
Agreed, as long as you have enough power on the circuit to make sure the amp gets all it needs, your golden... The only thing larger boxes do is flatten the response, by bringing down the top end.


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As i watched my drivers earlier doing the EOT test, i was amazed at the amount of cone movement on this cheap ass S-O-B as the Hz went down. It really performs exellent for what it is. Even down to 10Hz.

And main point: in nearfield placement even if it doesn’t match my farfield sono’s , the TR is MILES better. Amazingly so !

Yes.. per my sim's 4 of these perform the same as a single Ultimax 18 from about 40hz down, above that they perform BETTER than a Ultimax.

And when I bought them (27 per driver) for a cost of 120 you could get similar performance to a Ultimax UM18 (325 dollars)

Thats a price to performance ratio for sure!
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post #144 of 2352 Old 04-14-2018, 03:47 PM
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Agreed, as long as you have enough power on the circuit to make sure the amp gets all it needs, your golden... The only thing larger boxes do is flatten the response, by bringing down the top end. ...
I'm still trying to get my head around the fine nuances. For car use JBL recommends an optimum sealed enclosure size of 1.0cf per driver. It's generally been accepted that for home use there's no real benefit going beyond 1.7cf sealed. I assume that an NU3000DSP would have more than enough power to get maximum safe SPL from two drivers even at the minimal 1.0cf per driver. I also assume the DSP allows the overall response to be flattened and the bottom end extended so anything gained or lost in any area of the FR at any enclosure size between 1.0cf-1.7cf can be compensated for.

So with the above assumptions it sounds as if there would be no difference in overall performance between having 1.0cf or 1.7cf per driver other than the smaller enclosure requiring more of the amp's available power and a different DSP curve from the larger enclosure. In other words, given adequate amp power and DSP is there any reason to try to be closer to 1.0cf or closer to 1.7cf per driver or does it really not matter?
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post #145 of 2352 Old 04-14-2018, 04:24 PM
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I'm still trying to get my head around the fine nuances. For car use JBL recommends an optimum sealed enclosure size of 1.0cf per driver. It's generally been accepted that for home use there's no real benefit going beyond 1.7cf sealed. I assume that an NU3000DSP would have more than enough power to get maximum safe SPL from two drivers even at the minimal 1.0cf per driver. I also assume the DSP allows the overall response to be flattened and the bottom end extended so anything gained or lost in any area of the FR at any enclosure size between 1.0cf-1.7cf can be compensated for.

So with the above assumptions it sounds as if there would be no difference in overall performance between having 1.0cf or 1.7cf per driver other than the smaller enclosure requiring more of the amp's available power and a different DSP curve from the larger enclosure. In other words, given adequate amp power and DSP is there any reason to try to be closer to 1.0cf or closer to 1.7cf per driver or does it really not matter?
The relationship between box size, power, and DSP is tricky. If your not familiar with WinISD, you really should try to work with it. I've simmed more drivers/boxes, etc than I care to admit lol..

With the program and the file for the driver, you can take a look for yourself.

Whats mainly important is that you understand just how much power (in the box size you decide on) you can give the driver before problems, while also factoring in the DSP.

The only real way to figure that out is to simulate it with WinISD and being able to run a bunch of models at the same time and see how things change as you adjust box size, power and other things...
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post #146 of 2352 Old 04-14-2018, 06:33 PM
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Thanks to the contributions from others who understand the fine nuances of speaker building a lot better than I ever will I feel like I have a good general grasp of what it takes to make these JBL drivers work in a sealed configuration. Others have already run dozens of simulations and arrived at a narrow range of optimized enclosure size extending from JBL's 1.0cf recommendation up to 1.7cf. I'm comfortable working within that range and am just interested in the general concept of what if any practical changes to expect from the low to the high side of that range given more than adequate amp power and DSP.
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post #147 of 2352 Old 04-14-2018, 07:17 PM
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If I had my actual druthers, I'd build a sofa table (that was actually a sub box) across the entire back of my sectional that was 14" deep x 30" tall x 110" long. On the side facing the seats there would be a 1" inset and then all 16 12" drivers would be loaded back there lol. 8 rows of 2 drivers each with a bit of spacing.... I would then attach that box to a very thin riser that my sectional was on and I'd get all the tactile feel and SPL I'd ever need lol. But thats not happening
I concur.



Cept you don't need no riser with 16 12's an inch from your couch.
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post #148 of 2352 Old 04-14-2018, 08:21 PM
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I concur.



Cept you don't need no riser with 16 12's an inch from your couch.
Whose build is that?

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post #149 of 2352 Old 04-14-2018, 09:08 PM
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Mine.
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post #150 of 2352 Old 04-15-2018, 06:46 AM
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My factory car stereo didn't sound very good....I doubt the bass went much below 70-80Hz and I drive a lot so figured I would add a small cheap sub to make things sound a little better. I went, Imo, waaaaaay overkill by using this driver but the fact is, it was cheaper than using a smaller sub. I paid around $43 for the driver and got a fully assembled sealed, carpeted, wired box for around $26(.67 ft^3 net) with free shipping from Amazon. It was substantially cheaper than the boxes for smaller subs. Any 8 or 10" sub would have cost more money. Got what I think is a decent amp, maybe slightly more than needed(1000 watt Pioneer). At moderate volumes, it sounds pretty darn good considering how much I spent. One of my factory door speakers was blown so I put in a decent pair of JBL 6.5's to replace them. However, with the lower extension of the sub and output capability, things start to sound terrible long before I approach the subs output capability. Too many rattles and vibrations! But it really made for some very nice reinforcement down low at moderate volumes, and with the manual remote volume control knob that the amp came with, you can really boost the low end when listening quietly.

Thanks to this thread I got a better sub for less money than if I had bought a powered setup or a smaller sub.

One thing that was a little surprising to me is that I was expecting A LOT of cabin gain in the lower frequencies since, its a car. I tried Bass I Love You to check out the low frequency flutter that I get on my home system from what I believe are the 15-20Hz signals in the song. There must be A LOT of rolloff in either the amp, my phone(iTunes?), the sub/cab itself, or all combined because I can't really get any of that rumble/flutter effect from the song even at MUCH higher volumes than I would EVER listen. Honestly not much of a concern at all, since this was not the purpose, but it still surprised me how there just isn't enough output low enough to notice the effect.

Last edited by bear123; 04-15-2018 at 06:59 AM.
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