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post #1501 of 2326 Old 02-16-2019, 12:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
What kind of build? What do you aim to accomplish? Nearfield? Riser?
Space or WAF limitations?


I need to get rid of some stuff first, but I'm seriously considering 9 CS-1214 refurbs in three of these:
http://www.qpowerinc.com/details.aspx?product_id=20113


So, you see, a little more information would be helpful.

Michael
I'm thinking of a nearfield type build, no WAF limitations. I guess I'm looking for something in the realm of mid bass and would rather something with a small footprint.
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post #1502 of 2326 Old 02-16-2019, 08:08 PM
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Anyone able to post some images of their iNuke or NX3000D settings?

I just built two boxes, each with two of these drivers and my head is swimming trying to do any adjustments to the NX3000D based off of the random comments I've seen in this thread.
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post #1503 of 2326 Old 02-16-2019, 08:18 PM
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That's because you're supposed to have a way of measuring your room and making the appropriate adjustments.
Otherwise, you're just flying blind.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1504 of 2326 Old 02-16-2019, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
That's because you're supposed to have a way of measuring your room and making the appropriate adjustments.
Otherwise, you're just flying blind.
[IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif[/IMG]
For sure, I'm new to this so I am going a bit blind. I was hoping for a bit of a baseline of what settings people are changing in the NX3000D.

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post #1505 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 06:53 AM
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I finally got my CS1214's finished and installed yesterday.



I put them up front where I used to have two UM-18s in the 4cuft packs. I moved the UM18's behind the only row of seating.

Well they act like they do in WinISD; drop like a rock below about 40Hz. How do you guys get 20Hz out of these? More than 8 of them?

They are more sensitive than the UM18's. The knob on the NU6000D dedicated to the CS1214's is turned down quite a bit from the NU6000D driving the UM18's.

The drop off below 40Hz worked out because of how I wanted to cross these subs together with the mains and UM18s. The mains are crossed to the subs at 100Hz. The CS1214's take over from 100Hz down to 40Hz. From 40Hz and below is the UM18's. Although I need to play with it and listen more, this setup puts most of the bass up front and the tactile (UM18's behind me) in the 20Hz-40Hz range which seems to be working out just right. Explosions and other LF content is tactile. Closing of car doors is not. That's what I wanted. Tactile bass where, IMHO, it belongs, down low.

These were a booger to blend. I started by turning off the UM18's amp and concentrated on blending the CS1214's with the center channel. I ended up with nulls popping up. I did the best I could and then started blending the UM18's with the CS1214's. More nulls. Adjusting the distance for the subs only shifted the nulls around. Once I changed the 40Hz crossover between the CS1214's and UM18's to 24db/oct in the nuke (I started with 12db/oct), I started over and things got a lot better. I guess it's such a narrow frequency band down there that unless you have a steep filter, both the CS1214's and the UM18's interact with each other and the mains. Anyway, I got it smoothed out pretty well.



I lost content below 20Hz because of re-positioning the UM18's. I guess I had some boundary gain with them up against the front wall. They're flat to 20Hz but drop hard below that. I'm ok with that but it was nice to see an REW graph with content below 20Hz. Bragging rights at least

I was hoping for more chest-slam out of the CS1214's and I'm not getting it. I thought the lower cone mass of the CS1214's and more cone area would help that but I'm not getting it. I'll play around a bit more but doubt that there's anything else to do.

I'll play and listen some more. I think I like it the way it is. The alternative is to put the UM18's back up front and put the CS1214's behind the sofa. The rub with that is that I don't want tactile response too high in frequency where it'll be over-used and gimicky.

Subjectively, so far, I like the sound of the bass I'm getting. The UM18's are far from one-note-wonders but for music, the bass (like bass guitar) sounds more defined with the CS1214's up front. I'll have to listen to more content that I'm familiar with.

So far, I like them. I didn't get a "wow this is so much better" experience but if after more listening I like the quality of the bass better, then it's a win. At $29/driver, it's an inexpensive upgrade.
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post #1506 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
These were a booger to blend.
First off, they look great. And your graph looks fine (though I'd like to see it with no smoothing).
Subs are usually blended by moving them around to find the best location for them. You seem to be very location-limited, so that will be a problem.
AIUI, you get these below 40Hz with a big boost from the eq. Since they're not (individually) working too hard, you can get away with that.
It sounds to me, though, that it's worked out perfectly well for you.
Congrats.

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post #1507 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:07 AM
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Everyone gets to do it their way, that's a big part of the fun.

Personally my experience is more cones moving is more feel regardless of spl.

I would boost the 12s with a low shelf a lot, and integrate them with the nearfield subs. Not only will you get more down low, it will go a lot lower, way below 20.

With a multi sub array even in an open room i would work to get flat response to 10hz.

My 2nd opinion is dont be too aggressive cutting the umaxes. I integrate my nearfields as if they are just another sub or set of subs, and also dont want too much feel. Not an issue imo and i dont cut nearfield at all, crossing at 100hz like the others.

Try a lot of things without bias to really find what works. You want those umaxes playing midbass too...if its too much, dial it back a bit...even trying moving the nearfield back 6in or a foot. Things you might not normally try
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post #1508 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:13 AM
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Post a measurement of each channel you have amped separately i guarantee we can make it better! Beautiful finish btw
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post #1509 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nlash View Post
For sure, I'm new to this so I am going a bit blind. I was hoping for a bit of a baseline of what settings people are changing in the NX3000D.
Distance you can guess 1ms delay for each foot as a baseline...

Low shelf a 8 or 10db boost down low and limit power in big time would be my flying blind starting point.
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post #1510 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:37 AM
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Had my screen down and phone at the same time lol.

For those curious on wiring 4 of these. Those are binding posts installed backwards. The side inside the box is wiring 2 in series, then I connect the other box to the binding posts with ring terminals as well as the wire going to one channel of the nu6000dsp giving a 4ohm load.
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post #1511 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
I finally got my CS1214's finished and installed yesterday.



I lost content below 20Hz because of re-positioning the UM18's. I guess I had some boundary gain with them up against the front wall. They're flat to 20Hz but drop hard below that. I'm ok with that but it was nice to see an REW graph with content below 20Hz. Bragging rights at least

I was hoping for more chest-slam out of the CS1214's and I'm not getting it. I thought the lower cone mass of the CS1214's and more cone area would help that but I'm not getting it. I'll play around a bit more but doubt that there's anything else to do.
Do you have a response graph from before the changes so we can compare?
When I hear people talk about "chest-slam" it makes me think that either they are listening at ridiculous concert levels or there is a frequency response hump in the 40 -70 Hz range.
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post #1512 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:53 AM
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@jcmccorm : wow, they look awsome, and great room too

Sure, you can get more extension by using Low Shelf filters. Try a 8-10 dB at 20hz. Don’t worry, they can take it, i have used 15dB no problems

I have shown this before, but this is the close mic measurement(native response) vs the MLP response (nearfield and with EQ):



It might be that using the UM18 in front and the JBL’s nearfield( that’s what i do) is better. But then again i use LS filters on my farfields subs too, LOL.

I have to ask too: what did the curve look like before?
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post #1513 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 07:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Everyone gets to do it their way, that's a big part of the fun.

Personally my experience is more cones moving is more feel regardless of spl.

I would boost the 12s with a low shelf a lot, and integrate them with the nearfield subs. Not only will you get more down low, it will go a lot lower, way below 20.

With a multi sub array even in an open room i would work to get flat response to 10hz.

My 2nd opinion is dont be too aggressive cutting the umaxes. I integrate my nearfields as if they are just another sub or set of subs, and also dont want too much feel. Not an issue imo and i dont cut nearfield at all, crossing at 100hz like the others.

Try a lot of things without bias to really find what works. You want those umaxes playing midbass too...if its too much, dial it back a bit...even trying moving the nearfield back 6in or a foot. Things you might not normally try
Thanks @LastButNotLeast and @RoboAVS !

I had thought about what you're suggesting and thought it might make the blending too difficult. I'll try it though. Just to make sure I understand, you're saying to let both the CS1214's and the UM18's take everything under 100Hz (crossover in the AVR) and work on blending them all together. I'll try it.

I *am* very limited in how much I can move the CS1214's up front. When it was just the UM18's up there I had a little more flexibility but those spots on either side of the center turned out to work really well so I thought the CS1214's would fair well. They actually do; if I run REW with *only* the CS1214's or *only* the UM18's then the response looks good. It wasn't until I added the mains or both the CS1214's and UM18's that nulls started to pop up. I'm assuming that's because of deconstructive interference between them all (since they were all fine on their own). I have a lot more flexibility on moving the UM18's behind the seating so I can play with that.

I will certainly give it a shot to let all the subs work below 100Hz rather than trying to slice it up based on frequency.

I'll try the LS on the CS1214's as well. I was/am concerned about cone excursion though. In WInISD, with 8 drivers with 2000W, I get about 120db for everything above 60Hz. At 20Hz I'm down to 105db and already at the limit for cone excursion. My thought was that I could safely add a HS with negative gain and be left with 105db across the board (20Hz and up). You say I'm ok with a LS boost? I must say, those CS1214's cones sure aren't moving much as it is right now. (kind of funny actually. Lots of sound but those cones are barely buzzing. I guess that's the beauty of more total cone area.)
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post #1514 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
if I run REW with *only* the CS1214's or *only* the UM18's then the response looks good. It wasn't until I added the mains or both the CS1214's and UM18's that nulls started to pop up. I'm assuming that's because of deconstructive interference between them all (since they were all fine on their own). I have a lot more flexibility on moving the UM18's behind the seating so I can play with that.
You need to delay the signal to the nearfield subs. If you only have one signal source, you need a miniDSP.
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post #1515 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
You need to delay the signal to the nearfield subs. If you only have one signal source, you need a miniDSP.
Michael
Thanks! That's what I was doing for blending; adjusting the delay for both the UM18's (nearfield) and the CS1214's. The Yamaha AVR I'm using has two sub outputs with independent delay. I was using the AVR to adjust distances (delays) and the NU6000D's for PEQ/crossover duty. I've got a miniDSPHD2x4 standing by if I need to bring out the big gun
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post #1516 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 08:26 AM
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So the 6000 is powering the UM18s and the 1214s?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1517 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
At 20Hz I'm down to 105db and already at the limit for cone excursion.

105 db of low bass plus room gain is umm... adequate... and pretty much puts you into the "bass elite". If you still find yourself wanting more, just double the power and drivers to go up by 6dB until you find that happy place (if you still have a place at that point)

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post #1518 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 09:36 AM
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What I would try is to use only one sub output on your AVR.


- connect only one input as a mono source into the NX.
- adjust each grouping of subs to individually get good frequency response at MLP
- use a constant tone of 15-20hz to adjust the delay. Front at 0 feet, adjust the delay of the rear subs in one foot increments until they become loudest and have the most constructive interference at that frequency. Fine adjust.
- double check the total combined response in REW and adjust if necessary
- have your AVR adjust distance of your "one sub"



AVRs in general concentrate on achieving good phase at 80 hz. Which is great if your goal is to have one sub. Good phase at 20hz is where all the hard work is for the driver and the amps. If you can use coupling to get a few dB at those frequencies (sometimes 3 - 6!), then you've done well. That's a huge costly upgrade avoided. The AVR will then adjust your "single" sub for 80hz, so you get a nice blend with the satellites AND all the coupling your room will give you. Win - win.

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post #1519 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 09:48 AM
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Looking at your measurements, your subs seem to be out of phase. You can try a HP6 filter of -6 to -10dB at around 24hz, but there's something going on that's causing cancellations below that, which you should address first imo.

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post #1520 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 10:16 AM
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So the 6000 is powering the UM18s and the 1214s?
Nope, sorry, I should've written that better. One NU6000D in Biamp1 mode drives two UM18's (one input to the 6000, and one output each, A and B, to each of the UM18's).
Same deal for the CS1214's except each output of the second NU6000D drives 4 (two enclosures) of the CS1214's.
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post #1521 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 10:27 AM
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Thank you guys for all of the help and suggestions. I really appreciate it. I guess I'll be busy tonight.

Here's a sweep I took immediately before unhooking the UM18's. This is just a CC sweep with just the UM18's up front and the HTM-12 Center Channel (so a "before" picture).

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post #1522 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Thank you guys for all of the help and suggestions. I really appreciate it. I guess I'll be busy tonight.

Here's a sweep I took immediately before unhooking the UM18's. This is just a CC sweep with just the UM18's up front and the HTM-12 Center Channel (so a "before" picture).

You would have been better off turning up the gain on your UM18's 2 or 3db and calling it a day.

Once you have a smooth frequency response in the sub bass region (which you had), good extension (which you had) and enough output to meet the most demanding program material (which I am sure you had) anything more is a waste. Obviously NOT the perspective of most in the DIY bass forum where brief demos of mind numbing, building wrecking bass seems to be the goal.
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Addressing the video side of things, if you can find a way to, even temporarily, hang a black or dark burgundy fabric behind your screen, I believe you will notice an improvement.
Michael

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post #1524 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 11:07 AM
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You would have been better off turning up the gain on your UM18's 2 or 3db and calling it a day.

Once you have a smooth frequency response in the sub bass region (which you had), good extension (which you had) and enough output to meet the most demanding program material (which I am sure you had) anything more is a waste. Obviously NOT the perspective of most in the DIY bass forum where brief demos of mind numbing, building wrecking bass seems to be the goal.
You're not wrong, and the thought has surely crossed my mind that I'm not really ahead of the game with the addition of the CS1214's. But, I've still got some tweaking to do.

One thing different, that this has afforded me, is nearfield subs. The UM18's on there own shook the floor pretty good (I'm on the second floor of a wood framed house). Having them nearfield is different and feels different. Granted, I'm not sure that it's better; one was shaking the floor and thereby my seat, while now I feel the back of the chair shake. They're both good.

I was hoping to get something more from the CS1214's in the upper-bass. They are obviously more sensitive and hopefully with some tweaking, I'll get something tangible.

In the end, more cones moving less means less distortion. As long as my one 20A breaker holds out, I can claim that I gained something.

I *do* want my <20Hz extension back though and I intend to get it.
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@jcmccorm

Can you get the jbls under your left and right mains? Is that just a stand under them? I'd flip the mains upside down to lower the tweeter height after putting the 4 JBL 12s under them. If it's easy to try I'd do it. Corners give you room gain in the lower freq.

With my eq settings music doesn't really sound crazy. Most people, including me, are disappointed. But if I set them up for music I could run them as hot as I want.

What eq settings did you load? I'd throw in John wick 2 tunnel scene and see what you get as is, but I still think they'd do better in the corners under your mains.
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- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
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post #1526 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 12:39 PM
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Yes, I want to be perfectly clear.

With no DSP the JBL's are inferior to many many many other choices. With DSP, and the low cost allowing large quantities of them, you have displacement and cone area for days.... and they become a contender.

My eq settings for my JBL's are basically pull ~60hz down about 15dB, and boost the snot out of down to 10hz. Plus I'm nearfield. I then cross over this whole mess at around 30hz 12db/oct, and have some random upper bass filter to make the slope increase even more after 50hz. This is a lot of DSP.

Many of us here are really combining a few things at once... for me, nearfield, super heavy dsp, a ton of cone area, many many voice coils (think dynamics), etc. I wouldn't just replace a UM18 with some JBL's and think it's an upgrade... it's an upgrade when you replace a UM18 with LOTS of JBL's, then eq and power them to suit your needs.

My main listening position is smack in the middle of this, my head about 10" in front/slightly above the top two middle cones. You can just see my pink post it note for alignment purposes.
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post #1527 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 12:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
@jcmccorm

Can you get the jbls under your left and right mains? Is that just a stand under them? I'd flip the mains upside down to lower the tweeter height after putting the 4 JBL 12s under them. If it's easy to try I'd do it. Corners give you room gain in the lower freq.
Great suggestion. I did this exact same thing recently, flipping my F15s upside down and putting them on top of UM18s in 4cf. It looks menacing, and it could definitely improve room response, so it's worth a try.

Getting the woofers up higher also greatly increased the feeling in my throat and chest from the upper bass.
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Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 02-17-2019 at 02:25 PM.
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post #1528 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 09:37 PM
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Don't throw anything at me.....

Anyone running 1, 2, 3 of these ported, care to speak of what the output is at 250-300 watts per in a small room, 1,500 cu ft.?

I am feeling really inadequate thinking that I might only be running 1, wondering what I'm missing compared to people running 12 in a single room.

I either don't have the budget, space, WAF or combo of them to do what you guys do with 4, 8, 12, 16. I've honestly never even been in a HT with anything close to what you guys have.
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post #1529 of 2326 Old 02-17-2019, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by CheapSpeakerGuy View Post
Don't throw anything at me.....
Anyone running 1, 2, 3 of these ported, care to speak of what the output is at 250-300 watts per in a small room, 1,500 cu ft.?
I am feeling really inadequate thinking that I might only be running 1, wondering what I'm missing compared to people running 12 in a single room.
I either don't have the budget, space, WAF or combo of them to do what you guys do with 4, 8, 12, 16. I've honestly never even been in a HT with anything close to what you guys have.
There is real advantage to going with a minimum of two subs, especially if you are able to place them in different locations. Not only will multiples provide increased output, but also smoother frequency response throughout the room.
In the lowest frequencies, you will need roughly half as many subs and half as much power for the same level of sound output with ported vs sealed. Unfortunately nothing is for free, and the ported box will take up more than twice the space and be more complicated and costly to build.
This chart shows maximum output for each, limited either by power handling ability or cone excursion.
I run 4 similar subs in ported enclosures in a 1500 cuft room and only use their full potential in super bass heavy movie tracks at reference volume. Two should work just fine for normal use.

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post #1530 of 2326 Old 02-18-2019, 06:22 AM
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Guys I'm having a problem and this might be slightly off-topic but it's related.

I have wired 4 of the JBL GX1200s in series parallel to 4 ohms. I have connected this single channel to the output A of a Behringer NU3000D. I purchased a monoprice male RCA to XLR cable and have connected it from my Denon 2500 subwoofer out to the channel A input of the Behringer. When I output a test tone from the receiver to the LFE channel I only get a 60 cycle hum through the JBLs.

When I plug in an electric guitar to the Behringer using a TS 1/4" I get a fine sound with no hum.

Is the fact that the XLR cable is unbalanced (because it's from RCA on other end) making the Behringer output a hum because it thinks it's getting a balanced signal since it's XLR in?

Also for testing I was able to output the Denon 2500 RCA to RCA IN of my old subwoofer and the test tone works just fine. I set the test tone output from the receiver to a 0db gain.

Any help or pointing to where to go for help would be appreciated.

See below pictures just to get people's attention but really doesn't help the question above!

Thank you!
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Last edited by skipford; 02-18-2019 at 06:27 AM.
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