12" JBL speaker $29 on black friday at Bestbuy - Page 52 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1531 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 06:43 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post
...
you may know this, but if not, because the equal loudness contours are compressed on the low end, a smaller increase in level is required to provide a subjectively larger increase in output.

this is why bass seems to get louder relative to the rest of the content as the volume knob is turned up.

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post #1532 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
you may know this, but if not, because the equal loudness contours are compressed on the low end, a smaller increase in level is required to provide a subjectively larger increase in output.

this is why bass seems to get louder relative to the rest of the content as the volume knob is turned up.
I have seen that chart before but always from the "insensitivity to low frequencies" stand point.
Thanks for the new perspective.

Last edited by DavidK442; 02-18-2019 at 12:40 PM.
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post #1533 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 07:32 AM
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Guys I'm having a problem and this might be slightly off-topic but it's related.

I have wired 4 of the JBL GX1200s in series parallel to 4 ohms. I have connected this single channel to the output A of a Behringer NU3000D. I purchased a monoprice male RCA to XLR cable and have connected it from my Denon 2500 subwoofer out to the channel A input of the Behringer. When I output a test tone from the receiver to the LFE channel I only get a 60 cycle hum through the JBLs.

When I plug in an electric guitar to the Behringer using a TS 1/4" I get a fine sound with no hum.

Is the fact that the XLR cable is unbalanced (because it's from RCA on other end) making the Behringer output a hum because it thinks it's getting a balanced signal since it's XLR in?

Also for testing I was able to output the Denon 2500 RCA to RCA IN of my old subwoofer and the test tone works just fine. I set the test tone output from the receiver to a 0db gain.

Any help or pointing to where to go for help would be appreciated.

See below pictures just to get people's attention but really doesn't help the question above!

Thank you!
Nice riser! I bet you can't wait to get that rockin'.

Sounds like you've tried it all; it's got to be the cable. I'm at work or I'd go 'ohm' mine out for you to verify what pin connects to what. Sounds like you've got a GND/shield connected to the hot side of the balanced pair going into the nuke.
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post #1534 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Nice riser! I bet you can't wait to get that rockin'.

Sounds like you've tried it all; it's got to be the cable. I'm at work or I'd go 'ohm' mine out for you to verify what pin connects to what. Sounds like you've got a GND/shield connected to the hot side of the balanced pair going into the nuke.
Thank you!

I did go ahead last night and order a replacement of the XLR/RCA cable. So I will be able to try another one. In the meantime I'm considering buying a RCA male to 1/4" TS cable. But everyone else is using the XLR connector to RCA, right? And no issues.
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post #1535 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Thank you!

I did go ahead last night and order a replacement of the XLR/RCA cable. So I will be able to try another one. In the meantime I'm considering buying a RCA male to 1/4" TS cable. But everyone else is using the XLR connector to RCA, right? And no issues.
Yes. Maybe a dumb question, but make sure you've got the XLR plugged in all the way into the Behringer. I had a heck of a time plugging mine in; it was a tight fit.
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post #1536 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 01:47 PM
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So, as jcmccorm knows, I am pretty much mirroring his build, albeit with different positioning of the enclosures in my room. That said, I'm getting ready to order the electronic components to go along with the enclosures that are under construction and want to ensure I am getting the correct connectors, wall plates, and enough wire. Here is my understanding on hookup of the four enclosures (4 8 Ohm enclosures resulting in 2 enclosures wired in parallel to present two, separate 4 ohm loads) to an NX6000D:

1) Yamaha AVR LFE Output 1 to NX6000D Input Channel A via single RCA (male) to single XLR (male)
2) Set NX6000D to BIAMP1
3) This is where I have questions, the NX6000D manual uses a traditional hi/low bi-amp configuration as an example, which is not what we are doing. What is confusing is their example describes the ouput as all done via Output Channel A and a 4-pole speakon, but then goes on to say that the low frequency output uses Channel B, 2+/- and the high frequency uses Channel A, 1 +/-, even though it only describes using Output A. So, here are my questions:

3A) Does the BIAMP1 setting combine the output from A and B all into Output A and then split it between poles 1 and 2 within the speakon (i.e., the physical Output B connector is not used)? This is confusing because I always thought that biamping took a single input and split it into two separate output channels (i.e., Input A crossed over to send high freq to physical Output A and low freq to physical Output B), but this is not at all how the manual reads.

3B) The manual describes setting the crossover frequencies for Channels A and B based on the traditional bi-amp (high on one, low on another), but I assume for our application, we are just setting low on both and that the amp does not prevent identical crossover settings for each channel?

3C) Assuming one physical output like the manual describes, the amp is then placing output channel A on pole 1 and output channel B on pole 2, so, I would need to split the 4-pole output into two 2-pole outputs, with each of the 2-pole outputs then being split in parallel, one to each enclosure, correct?

Now, here what how I THOUGHT it was supposed to work:

Using LFE input to Input A, set amp to BIAMP1, set a LP crossover (e.g., 80 Hz) for both Output A and B, then run a 2-pole speakon out of Output A and another 2-pole speakon out of Output B (I would then split each of the individual outputs via a parallel speakon, which would give me the four total outputs, one for each 8 Ohm enclosure)

Obviously, depending on how the amp handles this, it will really affect the quantity of wiring, connectors, and wall plates I need to buy, not to mention how I build the speakons.

I appreciate your help!!
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post #1537 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Yes. Maybe a dumb question, but make sure you've got the XLR plugged in all the way into the Behringer. I had a heck of a time plugging mine in; it was a tight fit.
Ok, Good news and issues. I re-connected the XLR today in the amplifier and I do not get a 60 cycle hum and I do get the test tone signal from the Denon receiver.

I turn the gain dial on the amplifier all the way up and I barely hear base. I switched the amplifier mode to bridged and turned all the way up I can get the 1 green dot on the level signal indicator on the amplifier.

I have the test tone on the receiver gain increased now to +6 db.

Is it supposed to be so quiet?
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post #1538 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Uther View Post
So, as jcmccorm knows, I am pretty much mirroring his build, albeit with different positioning of the enclosures in my room. That said, I'm getting ready to order the electronic components to go along with the enclosures that are under construction and want to ensure I am getting the correct connectors, wall plates, and enough wire. Here is my understanding on hookup of the four enclosures (4 8 Ohm enclosures resulting in 2 enclosures wired in parallel to present two, separate 4 ohm loads) to an NX6000D:

1) Yamaha AVR LFE Output 1 to NX6000D Input Channel A via single RCA (male) to single XLR (male)
2) Set NX6000D to BIAMP1
3) This is where I have questions, the NX6000D manual uses a traditional hi/low bi-amp configuration as an example, which is not what we are doing. What is confusing is their example describes the ouput as all done via Output Channel A and a 4-pole speakon, but then goes on to say that the low frequency output uses Channel B, 2+/- and the high frequency uses Channel A, 1 +/-, even though it only describes using Output A. So, here are my questions:

3A) Does the BIAMP1 setting combine the output from A and B all into Output A and then split it between poles 1 and 2 within the speakon (i.e., the physical Output B connector is not used)? This is confusing because I always thought that biamping took a single input and split it into two separate output channels (i.e., Input A crossed over to send high freq to physical Output A and low freq to physical Output B), but this is not at all how the manual reads.

3B) The manual describes setting the crossover frequencies for Channels A and B based on the traditional bi-amp (high on one, low on another), but I assume for our application, we are just setting low on both and that the amp does not prevent identical crossover settings for each channel?

3C) Assuming one physical output like the manual describes, the amp is then placing output channel A on pole 1 and output channel B on pole 2, so, I would need to split the 4-pole output into two 2-pole outputs, with each of the 2-pole outputs then being split in parallel, one to each enclosure, correct?

Now, here what how I THOUGHT it was supposed to work:

Using LFE input to Input A, set amp to BIAMP1, set a LP crossover (e.g., 80 Hz) for both Output A and B, then run a 2-pole speakon out of Output A and another 2-pole speakon out of Output B (I would then split each of the individual outputs via a parallel speakon, which would give me the four total outputs, one for each 8 Ohm enclosure)

Obviously, depending on how the amp handles this, it will really affect the quantity of wiring, connectors, and wall plates I need to buy, not to mention how I build the speakons.

I appreciate your help!!
Hey Uther, how you *think* it should work is how it really does work (at least for me). I may go take a look at the manual again when I get home. I remember it being really confusing.

I've got RCA->XLR from the AVR to input A of the 6000D.
Set it to Biamp1 mode.
Turn off the crossover. Unless you're doing something I've forgotten that you posted about, your AVR will handle the crossover.
I used 1+/1- on output A and 1+/1- on output B. (the cables and connectors were wired up the same).

You'll end up adding some EQ in the Parametric EQ tab.
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post #1539 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Ok, Good news and issues. I re-connected the XLR today in the amplifier and I do not get a 60 cycle hum and I do get the test tone signal from the Denon receiver.

I turn the gain dial on the amplifier all the way up and I barely hear base. I switched the amplifier mode to bridged and turned all the way up I can get the 1 green dot on the level signal indicator on the amplifier.

I have the test tone on the receiver gain increased now to +6 db.

Is it supposed to be so quiet?
What's the master volume set at? If you're only getting one LED on the amp, I think your source/input is too low.
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post #1540 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
What's the master volume set at? If you're only getting one LED on the amp, I think your source/input is too low.
I turned it up to 75 on the receiver and put the gain to +12 db on the receiver. THE SUBWOOFER LEVELS NOW SOUND GOOD/AUDIBLE

So I kinda figured out more since my last post:

THE HDMI CONNECTED TO A TV IN THE OTHER ROOM (brand new Monoprice 30' certified HDMI cable) creates the 60 cycle hum.

And as I turned the volume up to the receiver it does not affect the volume of the hum. It's just really loud whenever the receiver is on and set to output to LFE and the HDMI is connected on both ends. If the HDMI is only connected to the receiver it does not make this loud hum.

This is a ground issue isn't it?

Last edited by skipford; 02-18-2019 at 04:28 PM.
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post #1541 of 2566 Old 02-18-2019, 04:41 PM
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Probably.

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1542 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 06:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uther View Post
So, as jcmccorm knows, I am pretty much mirroring his build, albeit with different positioning of the enclosures in my room. That said, I'm getting ready to order the electronic components to go along with the enclosures that are under construction and want to ensure I am getting the correct connectors, wall plates, and enough wire. Here is my understanding on hookup of the four enclosures (4 8 Ohm enclosures resulting in 2 enclosures wired in parallel to present two, separate 4 ohm loads) to an NX6000D:

1) Yamaha AVR LFE Output 1 to NX6000D Input Channel A via single RCA (male) to single XLR (male)
2) Set NX6000D to BIAMP1
3) This is where I have questions, the NX6000D manual uses a traditional hi/low bi-amp configuration as an example, which is not what we are doing. What is confusing is their example describes the ouput as all done via Output Channel A and a 4-pole speakon, but then goes on to say that the low frequency output uses Channel B, 2+/- and the high frequency uses Channel A, 1 +/-, even though it only describes using Output A. So, here are my questions:

3A) Does the BIAMP1 setting combine the output from A and B all into Output A and then split it between poles 1 and 2 within the speakon (i.e., the physical Output B connector is not used)? This is confusing because I always thought that biamping took a single input and split it into two separate output channels (i.e., Input A crossed over to send high freq to physical Output A and low freq to physical Output B), but this is not at all how the manual reads.

3B) The manual describes setting the crossover frequencies for Channels A and B based on the traditional bi-amp (high on one, low on another), but I assume for our application, we are just setting low on both and that the amp does not prevent identical crossover settings for each channel?

3C) Assuming one physical output like the manual describes, the amp is then placing output channel A on pole 1 and output channel B on pole 2, so, I would need to split the 4-pole output into two 2-pole outputs, with each of the 2-pole outputs then being split in parallel, one to each enclosure, correct?

Now, here what how I THOUGHT it was supposed to work:

Using LFE input to Input A, set amp to BIAMP1, set a LP crossover (e.g., 80 Hz) for both Output A and B, then run a 2-pole speakon out of Output A and another 2-pole speakon out of Output B (I would then split each of the individual outputs via a parallel speakon, which would give me the four total outputs, one for each 8 Ohm enclosure)

Obviously, depending on how the amp handles this, it will really affect the quantity of wiring, connectors, and wall plates I need to buy, not to mention how I build the speakons.

I appreciate your help!!
Hey Uther, how you *think* it should work is how it really does work (at least for me). I may go take a look at the manual again when I get home. I remember it being really confusing.

I've got RCA->XLR from the AVR to input A of the 6000D.
Set it to Biamp1 mode.
Turn off the crossover. Unless you're doing something I've forgotten that you posted about, your AVR will handle the crossover.
I used 1+/1- on output A and 1+/1- on output B. (the cables and connectors were wired up the same).

You'll end up adding some EQ in the Parametric EQ tab.
Thanks, glad to hear I'm not crazy. That should be a lot easier to hook up than what the manual was leading me to believe.
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post #1543 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 06:28 AM
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Another question: would I be better off getting the miniDSP and the 6000 without DSP, or just stick with the 6000D and so the mini DSP? I'm not worried about resale as I'll keep the amp, even if I end up repurposing it at some point.

I guess it comes down to how difficult is it too program the 6000D based on the REW analysis?
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post #1544 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 06:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Uther View Post
Another question: would I be better off getting the miniDSP and the 6000 without DSP, or just stick with the 6000D and so the mini DSP? I'm not worried about resale as I'll keep the amp, even if I end up repurposing it at some point.

I guess it comes down to how difficult is it too program the 6000D based on the REW analysis?
If you don't care about resale, the regular 6000 and a MiniDSP is going to be far more capable. Filters <20Hz, 3 other channels for future use, USB streaming capability to check your signal chain, and BassEQ capability (see my sig if interested).

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post #1545 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 07:31 AM
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If you don't care about resale, the regular 6000 and a MiniDSP is going to be far more capable. Filters <20Hz, 3 other channels for future use, USB streaming capability to check your signal chain, and BassEQ capability (see my sig if interested).
Yup. I'm not sure of the actual BW (on the low end) of the 6000 vs 6000D but I can tell you that I'm running into this problem with the 6000D. It's not a biggie; I've gotten these JBLs flat to 20Hz and they roll-off from there but I'm thinking that I might start using a miniDSP for DSP work instead of the 6000D.

The 6000D is *really* easy to add EQ to. So is the miniDSP. It's just that the 6000D won't let you enter any frequency less than 20Hz. There's ways around that by adding high-shelf or low-shelf filters at 20Hz but I wonder what frequency the 6000D ends it's EQing. Also, even though a miniDSP allows you to EQ below 20Hz, would it matter if you're still using the 6000 or 6000D as the amp?

Anyone know?
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Yup. I'm not sure of the actual BW (on the low end) of the 6000 vs 6000D but I can tell you that I'm running into this problem with the 6000D. It's not a biggie; I've gotten these JBLs flat to 20Hz and they roll-off from there but I'm thinking that I might start using a miniDSP for DSP work instead of the 6000D.

The 6000D is *really* easy to add EQ to. So is the miniDSP. It's just that the 6000D won't let you enter any frequency less than 20Hz. There's ways around that by adding high-shelf or low-shelf filters at 20Hz but I wonder what frequency the 6000D ends it's EQing. Also, even though a miniDSP allows you to EQ below 20Hz, would it matter if you're still using the 6000 or 6000D as the amp?

Anyone know?
Something else to consider:

The 6000D is only rated to output to 20 hz. Somebody told me that the amp is outputting signal below that frequency, but it's not rated to. I never have understood what that means practically. Like if you turn off the EQ on the iNuke and EQ the signal with miniDSP, when the amplifier receives the signals below 20 hz what is it doing with them?
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post #1547 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
Yup. I'm not sure of the actual BW (on the low end) of the 6000 vs 6000D but I can tell you that I'm running into this problem with the 6000D. It's not a biggie; I've gotten these JBLs flat to 20Hz and they roll-off from there but I'm thinking that I might start using a miniDSP for DSP work instead of the 6000D.

The 6000D is *really* easy to add EQ to. So is the miniDSP. It's just that the 6000D won't let you enter any frequency less than 20Hz. There's ways around that by adding high-shelf or low-shelf filters at 20Hz but I wonder what frequency the 6000D ends it's EQing. Also, even though a miniDSP allows you to EQ below 20Hz, would it matter if you're still using the 6000 or 6000D as the amp?

Anyone know?
Something else to consider:

The 6000D is only rated to output to 20 hz. Somebody told me that the amp is outputting signal below that frequency, but it's not rated to. I never have understood what that means practically. Like if you turn off the EQ on the iNuke and EQ the signal with miniDSP, when the amplifier receives the signals below 20 hz what is it doing with them?
That should be easy to verify with REW or the like. If you EQ below 20Hz and REW is measuring signal, then the amp is outputting it. If they had something like an HP filter in the amp, you would see a huge cliff below 20Hz, but most people are reporting nice output down to 10Hz or less with 8 or more of the JBLs.
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post #1548 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 07:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Uther View Post
Another question: would I be better off getting the miniDSP and the 6000 without DSP, or just stick with the 6000D and so the mini DSP? I'm not worried about resale as I'll keep the amp, even if I end up repurposing it at some point.

I guess it comes down to how difficult is it too program the 6000D based on the REW analysis?
If you don't care about resale, the regular 6000 and a MiniDSP is going to be far more capable. Filters <20Hz, 3 other channels for future use, USB streaming capability to check your signal chain, and BassEQ capability (see my sig if interested).
I'm curious, what are people doing with the other output channels of the miniDSP? Strictly more amps for subs? Wouldn't the usual LCRs, surrounds, and presence speakers be adequately handled by the AVR, or are people just bypassing the AVR EQ for these speakers because of the ease of use of the miniDSP with REW and UMIK1?
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post #1549 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 09:27 AM
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My MiniDSP is used just for my subs.

I plan to use just one Input from my Denon, and EQ all 4 subs all together best I can and then let Audyssey XT32 and SubEQ have at them when I'm done to flatten things out.

I may even have to loop an Output from Channel 1 into the Channel 2 INPUT to increase the delay, but wont know till it comes time to EQ them.

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post #1550 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 09:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skipford View Post
Something else to consider:

The 6000D is only rated to output to 20 hz. Somebody told me that the amp is outputting signal below that frequency, but it's not rated to. I never have understood what that means practically. Like if you turn off the EQ on the iNuke and EQ the signal with miniDSP, when the amplifier receives the signals below 20 hz what is it doing with them?
It has to do with roll-off as the frequency goes below 20 hz. Everything has some kind of roll off, but it depends on how you are expecting response whether or not it will be an issue. If the amp only starts rolling off significantly at 8 hz and you are only expecting response to 14 hz in room, you won't be bothered by that roll off. I believe notnyt's amp testing thread details the 6000(d?) roll off for low frequencies.
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post #1551 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 09:54 AM
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Shreds tested the 6000DSP and published the results:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post54674618

You can also use a shelf to make it flat to 10Hz:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post54726062
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I would appeeciate any comments about boosting the low end...such as have you boosted 10 or 12db and when doing so have you encountered any issues? I know it can be done with the proper amount of power but id like so actual takes on how it worked out.

Whats the most you tried boosting the low end and what was the result like?
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post #1553 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 11:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron7awol View Post
Shreds tested the 6000DSP and published the results:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post54674618

You can also use a shelf to make it flat to 10Hz:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post54726062
Thanks!

Looks like we're good down to 6Hz (-3db).

The rest is getting the DSP to do my bidding.
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I may even have to loop an Output from Channel 1 into the Channel 2 INPUT to increase the delay, but wont know till it comes time to EQ them.
That's what I did. Works great.
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post #1555 of 2566 Old 02-19-2019, 02:02 PM
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Yes, I want to be perfectly clear.

With no DSP the JBL's are inferior to many many many other choices. With DSP, and the low cost allowing large quantities of them, you have displacement and cone area for days.... and they become a contender.

My eq settings for my JBL's are basically pull ~60hz down about 15dB, and boost the snot out of down to 10hz. Plus I'm nearfield. I then cross over this whole mess at around 30hz 12db/oct, and have some random upper bass filter to make the slope increase even more after 50hz. This is a lot of DSP.

Many of us here are really combining a few things at once... for me, nearfield, super heavy dsp, a ton of cone area, many many voice coils (think dynamics), etc. I wouldn't just replace a UM18 with some JBL's and think it's an upgrade... it's an upgrade when you replace a UM18 with LOTS of JBL's, then eq and power them to suit your needs.

My main listening position is smack in the middle of this, my head about 10" in front/slightly above the top two middle cones. You can just see my pink post it note for alignment purposes.
Out of curiosity, how did you wire up the 12 and how are you powering it? I'm planning on doing 12 of them like that VNF and been trying to decide on the best wiring and powering combo for them.

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What size disconnects are you using to connect to the sub terminals or are most people just soldering? Same question from the driver to the back of the speakon connector in the cabinet. The driver manual doesn't list a size and PE has a bunch of different sizes - even some specific to neutrik/speakon.
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Out of curiosity, how did you wire up the 12 and how are you powering it? I'm planning on doing 12 of them like that VNF and been trying to decide on the best wiring and powering combo for them.
I used a NU6K, 3 in series =12 ohms and then two of those 12 ohms in parallel for a totalt of 6ohms pr amp channel.
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I used a NU6K, 3 in series =12 ohms and then two of those 12 ohms in parallel for a totalt of 6ohms pr amp channel.
I was thinking of that or maybe doing 2 NX3000s then putting 4 per channel. If I do that I'd have to have an interconnect between the 2 boxes for the 4 drivers that are split between the 2. My thinking there was that it would let me drive them at 4 ohms and leave me with an extra channel. I can then easily add more in the future or play around with BOSS. Doing that will complicate things slightly but the boxes are never going to move so it should be ok.

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post #1559 of 2566 Old 02-20-2019, 02:33 AM
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^ A NU3K at 4ohm would be about ~150 W RMS pr driver compared to a NU6K at 6 ohm ~400 W RMS pr driver. Doable but not optimal.

And yes, i have three boxes, so i had interconnects in the middle box, but using speakons that is easy

I now have one more NU6K, and use 4 pr channel on 3 of those 4 channels for a 4 ohm load pr channel, ~ 500 W RMS pr driver. Last channel is used for Buttkickers
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post #1560 of 2566 Old 02-20-2019, 04:57 AM
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
I would appeeciate any comments about boosting the low end...such as have you boosted 10 or 12db and when doing so have you encountered any issues? I know it can be done with the proper amount of power but id like so actual takes on how it worked out.

Whats the most you tried boosting the low end and what was the result like?
I just played with this again last night. 8x of the JBLs and 2x of the UM18's.

The HS filter doesn't work as well for me as the LS. I should've saved my plots. Maybe I'll do it again to get graphs but I tried it twice. I get more low frequency boost using LS12 [email protected] I did this with both the JBLs and the UM18's. On both the WofT "emerging" scene and the two deep bass scenes in Ready Player One, I got only one solid light on the iNukes. I had the master volume turned up to my regular movie listening level of -15db to -13db. It wasn't reference level, but I'll never listen at reference.

With just one light on the nukes and *plenty* of bass, I think I'm good and I'm not worried about the aggressive EQ. As someone here recently posted in this thread, and I just learned for myself, it can take it.
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