12" JBL speaker $29 on black friday at Bestbuy - Page 53 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1561 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
I just played with this again last night. 8x of the JBLs and 2x of the UM18's.

The HS filter doesn't work as well for me as the LS. I should've saved my plots. Maybe I'll do it again to get graphs but I tried it twice. I get more low frequency boost using LS12 [email protected] I did this with both the JBLs and the UM18's. On both the WofT "emerging" scene and the two deep bass scenes in Ready Player One, I got only one solid light on the iNukes. I had the master volume turned up to my regular movie listening level of -15db to -13db. It wasn't reference level, but I'll never listen at reference.

With just one light on the nukes and *plenty* of bass, I think I'm good and I'm not worried about the aggressive EQ. As someone here recently posted in this thread, and I just learned for myself, it can take it.
Thx jc great setup u got.

I have some nearfields but 4 more are on the way and im ready to reconfigure/tinker/get lost in my basement theater for a week or so 😀

I think LS is ideal for most sealed subs, it follows the rolloff while a hs would not have as much before 20.

So even 15db boost you have no mech issues or sound quality issues, that's a lot of boost!

Ive wondered at what point the boost becomes an issue, i guess it would as we push to the limit which as you say we mostly dont do.
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post #1562 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by DesertDog View Post
Out of curiosity, how did you wire up the 12 and how are you powering it? I'm planning on doing 12 of them like that VNF and been trying to decide on the best wiring and powering combo for them.
I have them series/parallel for two 6 ohm loads with two amplifiers. So what it looks like is 3 jbls in series, in parallel with another 3 that are in series. I.e. two 12 ohm loads in parallel = 6 ohm.

I also tried it at 2.67 ohms, (three parallel connections to two jbl's in series) but my amplifier seemed a little less happy about it. I was trying to reduce current draw for the 6 ohm load and it worked ok for that.

9 or 16 is a better number if you're looking for a 4 ohm load. Or an amplifier per 4 jbls. I'm not convinced it really matters that much, they're a pretty easy load as is.

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post #1563 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Thx jc great setup u got.

I think LS is ideal for most sealed subs, it follows the rolloff while a hs would not have as much before 20.
That's exactly it, right there. With the LS I get more boosting above 20Hz. With the HS, I tried to mimic that by upping the frequency where the HS is centered at (or the 3db point I guess is what it represents). I started at 20Hz and went up in 5Hz increments up to 50Hz. In each case, it got better as it started to address the roll-off that starts well above 20Hz. Eventually though, you lose the boost at and below 20Hz. I could never get the HS filter to be as good as the LS filter. I could get it close, but comparing the REW plots, the 10-200 Hz graph would match except for about 25Hz and below where the HS filter would end up down 5db or so at 15Hz relative to the LS filter.

All fun stuff though

As for mechanical or audio issues, I don't hear any. Using WinISD I can verify that there is a power level that will get me to violate the max cone excursion. I don't think I'm close to that.

As for audio quality, I don't know if it's the 8x JBLs or the fact that I've got more subs now, but bass is better. Not louder, better and more well defined.

Also, I learned two new things. One is that the front of my room (under the TV) is a great position for the subs. The UM18's I had up there enjoyed a flat response. A little boost to the bottom end was all I needed. No nasty peaks or valleys. When I put the JBLs up there, same deal. When integrating these things I ran the UM18's (now behind the seating) by themselves and man, what a crappy location. I moved them in every direction as much as I dared but I couldn't fix it. I wouldn't know where to start to fix it it looks so bad.

Which brings me to the second thing I learned; now I know why everyone says multiple subs will smooth out bass response. That nasty response I get from the UM18's behind the seating gets smoothed out once the JBLs are added in and the distances between them (JBLs and UM18's) are tweaked. Like it didn't happen. Which is nice because that UM18 graph, by itself, is awful and now I swept it under the rug
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post #1564 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 07:56 AM
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How about a graph of the JBLs by themselves?

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #1565 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 08:41 AM
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^ Yeah, i have been requesting more people put up their JBL curve’s too, but all i see is me posting mine over and over, LOL.
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post #1566 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 09:18 AM
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Anyone else noticed that JBL has discontinued the CS1214?
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post #1567 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Uther View Post
Anyone else noticed that JBL has discontinued the CS1214?
Long time ago, but they still make the CX1200 (just diff dust cap), and some other models, which are basically the same with diff lipstick on em......

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post #1568 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
How about a graph of the JBLs by themselves?
Will do. Will get it done and posted tonight.
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post #1569 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 10:31 AM
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Long time ago, but they still make the CX1200 (just diff dust cap), and some other models, which are basically the same with diff lipstick on em......
The CS1214's are still around, but I'm sure it is only until inventory is depleted. I ordered 8 from Walmart today.

Yes, I saw the CX1200, but it is considerably more. At its price, it will necessitate waiting for a mega-deal to achieve the same economy.
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post #1570 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 11:08 AM
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2 UM18's and 12 JBL's
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post #1571 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 11:33 AM
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One box checked, two lines.

Would really like to see:
JBLs only
other sub(s) only
all subs together
Someone? Please?


Michael

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post #1572 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
One box checked, two lines.

Would really like to see:
JBLs only
other sub(s) only
all subs together
Someone? Please?
One box/two lines: Left and Right Stereo. Remember I'm music only.


I eq'd them to work together, so the measurements of them separate are very heavily non-idealized and not particularly useful. I do not send the same signal to the JBL's vs. the UM18's.

The order I did things:

Ultimax only. Pull down obscene peaks.
JBL only. Pull down obscene peaks.
Both playing: Set distance, mess with timing for best matching
Both playing, eq JBL only (nearfield): Start beefing up extreme bottom end
Whole System: Run DIRAC to suit target curve

Listen to music, see if balance between front and rear subs feels right. Adjust JBL levels to suit (i.e. if too prominent turn them down, drop JBL crossover, or both).

Re-run DIRAC. I was forced into this method because my DIRAC is 2 channel stereo, so that means it will ultimately apply global eq to all subs, depending on how I have them setup (mono would be global, but you could do L&R subs too and target eq them differently if necessary). This will be much easier once I spring for the 8 channel processor.

Etc.

It's much more of an iterative process the first couple times you mess with these things. Now I could probably re-map things in 1/4 the time but I have a feel for what the JBL's can handle, how to roll them off, eq, etc.

Below is JBL only before eq work, can't remember if this one had any 60hz pulled down or not. I don't usually keep the files since they aren't important to me, and if anything changes I have to start over anyway.
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post #1573 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
I don't usually keep the files since they aren't important to me, and if anything changes I have to start over anyway.
Me, neither. But there are some times when some people would like to see those graphs.
Your process sounds like a good one. I'm sure the results are most satisfactory.
But, yes, we can tinker endlessly.
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post #1574 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 03:12 PM
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2 UM18's and 12 JBL's
That's a fine house-curve you have there sir
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post #1575 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 05:15 PM
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I took a few sweeps of the JBLs and UM18.

First, here's the lay of the land. I wanted to show the orientation of the UM18's with respect to the JBLs.



Here's an unsmoothed sweep of just the JBLs.



Here's the JBLs with the volume turned up louder than I'll ever have it. Only one light on the inuke and the room was rattling pretty good.



Here's the UM18.



I'm not sure what to do about this. Should I try to EQ the peaks? If I do, I risk shifting the phase around with respect to the JBLs. I'm not sure if it matters too much though (I'm not sure how much the phase matches up now throughout the 20-200Hz). I'm not sure about that notch. It's curiously located right about where the JBLs would resonate and the UM18's are directly facing the JBLs....

Here's the center channel, JBLs, and UM18 all together.



Here's my EQ for the JBLs.

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post #1576 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 05:36 PM
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That's a fine house-curve you have there sir
Thanks man! It's my 7th revision to my preferred house curve. I also use a subharmonic synth. A touch of that, with the house curve makes for a super fun music system. I haven't found any music that sounds bad on that curve, although on some I dial down the subharmonic synth. The normal response from people hearing the system is "I had no idea music could sound like this". One word to describe how it sounds is "huge", where somehow the system imparts a tremendous sense of size, whatever that means, I've heard a couple dozen people say the same thing. I think it's related to the curve/synth, but also all those cones, something about that cone area is inescapable if you want the real thing.

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post #1577 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 06:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
I took a few sweeps of the JBLs and UM18.

First, here's the lay of the land. I wanted to show the orientation of the UM18's with respect to the JBLs.



Here's an unsmoothed sweep of just the JBLs.



Here's the JBLs with the volume turned up louder than I'll ever have it. Only one light on the inuke and the room was rattling pretty good.



Here's the UM18.



I'm not sure what to do about this. Should I try to EQ the peaks? If I do, I risk shifting the phase around with respect to the JBLs. I'm not sure if it matters too much though (I'm not sure how much the phase matches up now throughout the 20-200Hz). I'm not sure about that notch. It's curiously located right about where the JBLs would resonate and the UM18's are directly facing the JBLs....

Here's the center channel, JBLs, and UM18 all together.



Here's my EQ for the JBLs.

A really important element of PEQ is to take several measurements and average them and use those same positions over and over.

2 is better than 1...etc...i use the same 8 i use for Audyssey. Its a matter of patience of how much work youre willing to do.

At least one measurement per seat, preferably at least 3 total imo.

By averaging these measurements you will get a smoother starting and ending curve, and a much better idea of your room response.

Since you are doing eq as 2 groups, the jbls and ultimaxes, the right way to integrate them is trial and error imo due to preferences and the big differences in response from near and far.

I would likely do this, as it saves a lot of time in the long run. Do one adjustment at a time and test again. Its tedious but i would EQ as much as possible to the curve you want.

Using averages of several measurements will make what you need to eq much more obvious. What wont be obvious at first is which sub, or both, to adjust to optimize the response. Sometimes the best eq is to actually boost one and lower the other at the same frequency...that usually happens at the trickiest frequencies.

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post #1578 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 06:34 PM
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2 UM18's and 12 JBL's
Damn, very nice!
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post #1579 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 07:28 PM
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Time to head over to the REW thread for input from the gurus there.
My guess is the next step is the check the time alignment with the ETC graph, but please don't take my word for it.
I'm eager to follow your progress.
BTW, how does it SOUND?
It is a really nice graph, though.
Congrats.
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post #1580 of 2305 Old 02-20-2019, 07:40 PM
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For my first (rough) eq pass, I have taken to using a moving mic average all around the area of the main listening position. Play the test tones, literally wave the mic all around, it averages freq response. Then I only use rough low-q filters to clean up obvious peaks, it just gets things more manageable before I use DIRAC. If I had Audyssey, I probably would run that first then eq to my heart's content, but with DIRAC I get to put my house curve as the target curve, so that's my final step each time.
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post #1581 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
A really important element of PEQ is to take several measurements and average them and use those same positions over and over.

2 is better than 1...etc...i use the same 8 i use for Audyssey. Its a matter of patience of how much work youre willing to do.

At least one measurement per seat, preferably at least 3 total imo.

By averaging these measurements you will get a smoother starting and ending curve, and a much better idea of your room response.

Since you are doing eq as 2 groups, the jbls and ultimaxes, the right way to integrate them is trial and error imo due to preferences and the big differences in response from near and far.

I would likely do this, as it saves a lot of time in the long run. Do one adjustment at a time and test again. Its tedious but i would EQ as much as possible to the curve you want.

Using averages of several measurements will make what you need to eq much more obvious. What wont be obvious at first is which sub, or both, to adjust to optimize the response. Sometimes the best eq is to actually boost one and lower the other at the same frequency...that usually happens at the trickiest frequencies.
Thank you! I haven't been doing this. It hadn't even crossed my mind actually. I've been putting the UMIK in the dead center of the seating (which isn't even a seat) and making changes based solely upon that. I'll start with 3 positions; dead center, and then left and right of that (which are actually seats). Hopefully that will smooth out what I'm seeing from the UM18's. (maybe it doesn't look as bad if I measure where the actual seats are rather than dead center).
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post #1582 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 05:24 AM
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The ONLY thing I'd avoid is taking measurements near a boundary (like a wall).

The corner of my sectional is along a wall and if I measure there (and then use it to average), I get a MASSIVE boost in my bass...... Move a few feet back from that and it measures more appropriately.

So pick and choose your measurement locations wisely .

Also while its "intended" for use when calibrating via Audyssey, I found this guide to be helpful for finding some potential measurement schemes for my UMIK mic too.... Read post #5 - 7 in their entirety (so you can understand what each one is looking for and decide which one you want to start with).

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post #1583 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 06:28 AM
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2ohms on an inuke, either the 1000 or 3000 is quite a sweet spot.

I have gotten used 1000dsps for 125 a piece, and getting say 500 watts a channel with dsp at that price is awesome. I have run 4 drivers off a 1000 and a 3000 and it worked great either way.

Dont get hung up on power requirements. At worst you are a bit underamplified that is always an easy fix.
125 a piece? I'm intrigued.
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post #1584 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 09:16 AM
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Also, I learned two new things. One is that the front of my room (under the TV) is a great position for the subs. The UM18's I had up there enjoyed a flat response. A little boost to the bottom end was all I needed. No nasty peaks or valleys. When I put the JBLs up there, same deal. When integrating these things I ran the UM18's (now behind the seating) by themselves and man, what a crappy location. I moved them in every direction as much as I dared but I couldn't fix it. I wouldn't know where to start to fix it it looks so bad.

Which brings me to the second thing I learned; now I know why everyone says multiple subs will smooth out bass response. That nasty response I get from the UM18's behind the seating gets smoothed out once the JBLs are added in and the distances between them (JBLs and UM18's) are tweaked. Like it didn't happen. Which is nice because that UM18 graph, by itself, is awful and now I swept it under the rug
Thanks for posting this experience, it puts some of my concern to bed.

I had moved my two THTs to the back of my room and got some response that was nothing like the front of the room, which is 20X20. It was concerning since the room is square with one entryway that is open. However, since I only have two to work with, I can't see response with all four until I commit to buying and building two more THTs. I understand integration and a lot of the principals, but seeing bad response with testing just created some hesitation to the benefit of running 4 horns in a room.

Maybe I'll go ahead anyways and see what happens. I look forward to adding in some proper EQ and reference some of the quality posts from this thread. Thanks for the info, all. Please carry on!
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post #1585 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 09:18 AM
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Hello,

I am in the middle of building my new home cinema and I have around 270 cubic feet (120cm x 59cm x 40cm) on each side of the center channel under my screen.

How much would fit in that space, three or four JBL?

Thanks,
N.
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post #1586 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Nima View Post
Hello,

I am in the middle of building my new home cinema and I have around 270 cubic feet (120cm x 59cm x 40cm) on each side of the center channel under my screen.

How much would fit in that space, three or four JBL?

Thanks,
N.
By my calculations, 2 on each side.
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post #1587 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 12:18 PM
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How are you liking the jbls being up front?

- 6 BA CR6 array center channel, QSC AD-S82 L/R, 4 jbl 8330a surr , 8 jbl 12" subs w/Inuke 6000. JVC rs420, Denon x4000, Sony x800 -
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post #1588 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post

And remember your amp requirements go down with more drivers. I showed the math in an earlier post. So don't buy more amps, buy more drivers and use the same amp.
Okay, I'll play devil's advocate.

1 12" ported at 300 watts total

or

3 12" sealed at 300 watts total (100 watts each sub)

P.S. I am learning not to quote entire posts!!
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post #1589 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 12:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilkb View Post
@jcmccorm

How are you liking the jbls being up front?
They're going to stay. I like them. Bass sounds better. I can't be certain that it's because I have an array of 12"s up front now vs the UM18's I did have, or that I just have more subwoofers now. I *think* it's the JBLs. Whatever it is, I like it.

It was touch n go there for a bit though. My first pass at EQing this whole thing left me with a REW graph that was almost exactly like what I have now (posted above). Nice response. The problem was that I felt nothing from it. My "go to" movie bass scenes were empty. I was frustrated about it because the UM18's would rattle the place and now I had MORE subs and nothing.

I took another pass at it and the rumble is back and it's better than it was. Not more of it, just better quality.

The only thing I can imagine, especially after reading recent posts about measuring multiple spots, is that I had gotten a nice flat response by measuring in the center of the seating like I always do, but that's not where I sit. I probably had good response where the mic was but not to the right of that where I was sitting.

Anyway, I guess I got lucky on another pass at EQ. The distance (delay) between the two subs (JBLs as a group and UM18's as a group) ended up being different and the distance (delay) between the subs and the mains ended up being a little different from my first pass at it.

Night and day difference as far as tactile feel goes.

Sorry for the long-winded answer Short version is that I like them up front and they'll stay there but it almost didn't happen because of bad EQ.

I've got more things to try with my EQ process to see if I can wring more out of it
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post #1590 of 2305 Old 02-21-2019, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by jcmccorm View Post
I've got more things to try with my EQ process to see if I can wring more out of it
Welcome to measurement and tweaking hell lol...

Best suggestion.... make sure to backup your settings and filters with names that make sense (Date)(Description)(version number) so you can get back to them if you booger something up later on....
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