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post #181 of 2704 Old 04-17-2018, 05:58 PM
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Thanks for that @EndersShadow . Kind of cool that these little sucker can keep up with the big boys

I was wondering myself what the xmax was on the SI18. I forget, and it’s no longer on the website.

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post #182 of 2704 Old 04-17-2018, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nalleh View Post
Thanks for that @EndersShadow . Kind of cool that these little sucker can keep ut with the big boys

I was wondering myself what the xmax was on the SI18. I forget, and it’s no longer on the website.
I'm sure some googling could find it on this site I'm just too lazy to do it lol.....

Anyway, as you can see, the 12s can keep up in the right size box. You go ported, the 18's walk all over the 12's all the day long.

In larger sealed boxes (like 8cf) the 4 12's still beat the 18's by a couple db all the way down, and even more so above 50hz.

Keeping in mind this only works with while the 12s stay low price wise lol.... they get back up to 100 bucks a pop or whatever their MSRP is, the price to performance v a HT18 or UM18 gets harder to justify.....

So like I said, if looking for a single UM18 for a sealed build, buy four of these if you can for less than a UM18 and you can still get similar performance if not better. But they all need to be in the same box
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post #183 of 2704 Old 04-17-2018, 06:44 PM
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^^ yup, found it:

HT18 Dual 2 ohm voice coils
Re3.6 ohms
Fs21 Hz
Qes0.47
Qms3.9
Qts0.42
Le5.1 mH
Sd117841 mm^2
Vas299.3 L
Bl19.3
Mms416 g
Cms357.3
Sensitivity (1w/1m)89.7 db
Xmax22.5 mm

So it turns out one SI18 has the exact same VD, or driver displacement(swept volume) as 4x CS1214 : 5,3 liters ! Who knew??

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post #184 of 2704 Old 04-17-2018, 06:57 PM
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My simulations and I lol..... However as shown the simulation shows the CS1214 have a bit more chest punch....
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post #185 of 2704 Old 04-17-2018, 09:09 PM
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And just for good measure, all three:

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post #186 of 2704 Old 04-17-2018, 10:10 PM
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Wal-Mart is showing the JBL CS1214 for $35.29ea.
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post #187 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 08:49 AM
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Hmm, wild idea.
Reading about PSA S7201 and it’s ”manifolds”. In a effort to optimize tactile response, instead of mounting 4, 8 or more CS in a front firing box design, would it be any difference mounnting them i a manifold design right behind each seat back. Istead of a flat front baffle with a lot of driver, in the front baffle, make something like this:


This way you could get 4-6 or 8 12” litterally in the ” footprint” of your back.

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post #188 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 10:04 AM
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^I'm not following lol....

Your image is of a IB manifold, and these drivers "could" be used for IB, though I wouldn't suggest it as they aren't ideal (based on my limited understanding)

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post #189 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
^I'm not following lol....

Your image is of a IB manifold, and these drivers "could" be used for IB, though I wouldn't suggest it as they aren't ideal (based on my limited understanding)
Yes, it’s IB manifold pic, but think PSA S7201. It kind of has a IB manifold in the front baffle, doesn’t it. Like that. Regular sealed enclosure, but instead of all mounted inline on the front baffle of the enclosure, it has a ”IB manifold” in the front baffle, like the PSA.
For example take the S7201 and lay it down and mount it behind the couch with the cavitys facing forward into the seat back. Same thing.

Let me put it this way : 4x PSA S1801 side by side behind the couch VS 1x PSA S7201 laying down behind the couch.

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post #190 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
^I'm not following lol....

Your image is of a IB manifold, and these drivers "could" be used for IB, though I wouldn't suggest it as they aren't ideal (based on my limited understanding)
Think more like this, but sealed on the sides.


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post #191 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 10:42 AM
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Gotcha. No idea how that would model or perform lol.... my brain is busy elsewhere and I can’t comprehend right now how these middle drivers are working in this layout lol...


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post #192 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 11:32 AM
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... my brain is busy elsewhere and I can’t comprehend right now how these middle drivers are working in this layout lol...

The slim middle section, upper and lower sections on the left and the whole right side are one sealed chamber. This is what it looks like:

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post #193 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 12:21 PM
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This is from an article where one of the owners and designers of the PSA 7201 talks a little about it's design-

Meet the S7201.

The S7201 is, as PSA claims, “a massive subwoofer capable of massive amounts of heart pounding bass.” Standing at 55-inches tall (36.5-inches deep and 22-inches wide) and weighing a whopping 295-pounds, the word massive might not be appropriate.

Perhaps colossal would be more fitting? Prodigious? Gargantuan?

No matter the descriptor you choose to embrace, the S7201 is primed to grab the attention of bass heads far and wide. It offers a heavily braced sealed cabinet design with a Reactive Force canceling driver array loaded with four 18-inch high excursion drivers. Powering the show is a 4000 Watt RMS (8000 Watt Peak) amplifier with DSP, capable of driving a show that can hit down to 6Hz in a room (quasi anechoic rating is: 15Hz-200Hz +/-3dB).

According to Vodhanel, “Co-founder Jim Farina and I have always admired our old B4+ design from 2003. It was a large ported sub that used both Push Pull and Reactive Cancelling driver arrangements. So, when the time came to discuss a new flagship product, we decided that we wanted to reap the benefits of both of those design considerations.”

[​IMG]
(Power Sound Audio)“Push Pull” typically refers to a design that has an even number of drivers, half of which are oriented (and wired) in such a way that their cones move "in" toward the driver motor, while the others move "out" and away from the driver motor. Vodhanel says that implementing Push Pull helps to minimize distortions caused by driver motor non-linearities.

“An example of Reactive Cancelling would be our S3601 subwoofer or smaller S3000i model. These subs have drivers that are mounted on opposing baffles and the system is designed to allow them to share the same polarity. So, both move ‘in’ and ‘out’ at the same time. The benefit is that the moving mass of each driver is equal in opposite directions, which means they cancel and cabinet vibrations are kept to a minimum… even at extreme output levels,” said Vodhanel. “It isn't difficult to find examples of products using one of these engineering practices, but there aren't many home audio products that incorporate both. And doing so in a 295-pound monstrosity with four 18-inch drivers is just sweet icing on the cake.”
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post #194 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 02:52 PM
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Meet the S7201.
Already covered:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/113-su...quad-18-a.html
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post #195 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 02:58 PM
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Correct.

Just posting it here to show that it is a combination of two different designs, push-pull and reactive cancelling.

I myself am quite interested in hearing if anyone has played around with this combo in the DIY realm........

And if they can explain it to Me!!
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post #196 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 03:14 PM
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I'd definitely stick with front firing subs. No way you feel the bass the same in that configuration. Push-pull in a sealed cab, ported, horn, etc it all comes down to proximity. Proximity matters period. Just moving the subs 6 inches back changes the perception. You're feeling waves and the particle velocity. Farther away you go the velocity isn't the same.

I've had multiple subs near-field and by far the coverage I have now is unbeatable. Simply because there isn't a seat on the couch that doesn't have 2-4 drivers behind it. When my bro and I demoed the 8 subs in the same cabs I have now we were both sitting on the same couch roughly 3ft away. When we played each individual sub at a time whatever sub was behind us was felt much more then the one behind the other. All this talk about one sub being more "tactile" than another I think is bs. It's simply proximity and SPL. If it's ported than the air from the port contributes and makes it more pronounced so ported is more tactile in that sense.

I'd go front firing hands down. Even 8 will be enough but for $35 you might as well go with 16.
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post #197 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 04:02 PM
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Wal-Mart is showing the JBL CS1214 for $35.29ea.
But you can only order 12 at a time.
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post #198 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 05:44 PM
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Simply because there isn't a seat on the couch that doesn't have 2-4 drivers behind it. When my bro and I demoed the 8 subs in the same cabs I have now we were both sitting on the same couch roughly 3ft away. When we played each individual sub at a time whatever sub was behind us was felt much more then the one behind the other.:
That’s precisely my point. No matter where you sit, there will only ever be 2-4 driver firing into your back, and the rest just goes past you. With ” the manifold nearfield” design you can have 4-8 firing into your back. You focus the soundbeam.

When i measured my DO sono’s close mic, the dB was the same everywhere within the endplate and driver. Not until i moved the mic outside of the driver surround did it decrease. I seem to remember reading the same about the IB manifold, as long as the mic is inside the manifold, it is practically close mic. Measure a normal sealed sub close mic, and then move the mic 1 inch !! away from the cone, and the dB goes down.

In my case i have a two seat recliner couch with a angled centersection, so only two MLP’s, so if i build a box for each seat with two rows of three drivers in each(6total), the ”pressure wave” will be spread out from an area of ca 3 ft wide by 2 ft high(3x12”wide and 2x12” high)= 6ft2.

If i mount them in a manifold 1 ft wide by 2 ft high by 1 ft deep(2x12” on the left wall, 2x12 on the right wall and 2x12 on the back wall), the ”pressure wave” will now be concentrated in a 1x2 ft area=2 ft2. Place that opening of the enclosure precisely behind each MLP, and you simply focus the beam to each seat.

You know: Shock Wave

Anyway, i’m just speculating here.....

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post #199 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 05:59 PM
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That’s precisely my point. No matter where you sit, there will only ever be 2-4 driver firing into your back, and the rest just goes past you. With ” the manifold nearfield” design you can have 4-8 firing into your back. You focus the soundbeam.

When it measured my DO sono’s close mic, the dB was the same everywhere within the endplate and driver. Not until i moved the mic outside of the driver surround did it decrease. I seem to remember reading the same about the IB manifold, as long as the mic is inside the manifold, it is practically close mic. Measure a normal sealed sub close mic, and them move the mic 1 inch !!, and the dB goes down.

In my case i have a two seat recliner couch with a angled centersection, so only two MLP’s, so if i build a box for each seat with two rows of three drivers in each(6total), the ”soundwave” will be spread out from an area of ca 3 feet wide by 2 feet high(3x12”wide and 2x12” high)= 6ft2.

If i mount them in a manifold 1 feet wide by 2 feet high(2x12” on the left wall, 2x12 on the right wall and 2x12 on the back wall), the ”soundwave” will now be concentrated in a 1x2 feet area=2 ft2. Place that opening of the enclosure precisely behind each MLP, and you simply focus the beam to each seat.

You know: Shock Wave

Anyway, i’m just speculating here.....
Except bass doesn't work that way...it's a long/high wave that gets larger as you go lower in frequency and you can't "focus" it. In a speaker yes that's what wave-guides are used for with higher frequencies but lower frequencies especially those below 80hz are omnidirectional and afaik won't work like that. You can build it however you like, but there's a reason all the guys doing near-field builds do front firing. I had my entire Raptor system behind me and it wasn't any better since they fired up and down. But hey whatever floats your boat.
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post #200 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 06:25 PM
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Except bass doesn't work that way...it's a long/high wave that gets larger as you go lower in frequency and you can't "focus" it. In a speaker yes that's what wave-guides are used for with higher frequencies but lower frequencies especially those below 80hz are omnidirectional and afaik won't work like that. You can build it however you like, but there's a reason all the guys doing near-field builds do front firing. I had my entire Raptor system behind me and it wasn't any better since they fired up and down. But hey whatever floats your boat.

Yes, you’re right. I said wrong, i didn’t mean soundwave, i meant pressure wave, as that is what nearfield is all about. You focus the pressure wave.

That is why you feel more TR from the 12’s right behind you and not as much from the ones on the sides.

But like i said, i am just speculating, and it would make the box both bigger and more complicated.

I guess i have to test it somehow first........

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post #201 of 2704 Old 04-18-2018, 07:19 PM
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I don't think you can "focus" a pressure wave either other than the orientation of the driver itself. When I said proximity I meant with regard to your couch, chair, etc. in a front firing position. How would that manifold be any different than a driver facing any other direction? It'd be an interesting experiment though I'd bet money the front firing would win.
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post #202 of 2704 Old 04-20-2018, 04:29 PM
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Expected back in stock 7/6
https://www.parts-express.com/behrin...-dsp--248-6710
Of course, lots can happen between now and then.

You might want to try their site:
http://www.musictri.be/Categories/Be...O/store-finder
Michael

Well, this is the second confirmation:

Hi Jan,

This model is discontinued by the supplier and can not be reached anymore.

It will be replaced with this:
https://www.gear4music.no/en/PA-DJ-a...Amplifier/2G7Z
https://www.gear4music.com/us/en/PA-...Amplifier/2G7T
It's not for sale yet but they are working to get them out to retailers. We do not know date on the only one.

Hope it helps.

With best regards,

Ida | Sales and Customer Services | Norwegian Market Advisor | Gear4Music Ltd.
Kettlestring Lane, Clifton Moor, York, YO30 4XF | United Kingdom |

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post #203 of 2704 Old 04-20-2018, 06:08 PM
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I don't see DSP on either of those.
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post #204 of 2704 Old 04-21-2018, 03:48 AM
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How are you guys dealing with powering many of these 4ohm subs? Seems like a number of these off something like the 6000dsp would be problematic due to ohm loads.
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post #205 of 2704 Old 04-21-2018, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by pengy99 View Post
How are you guys dealing with powering many of these 4ohm subs? Seems like a number of these off something like the 6000dsp would be problematic due to ohm loads.
Combinations of 4 in parallel and series on each channel would achieve the 4 ohm load best suited for the NU6000.
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post #206 of 2704 Old 04-21-2018, 06:55 AM
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Originally Posted by DavidK442 View Post
Combinations of 4 in parallel and series on each channel would achieve the 4 ohm load best suited for the NU6000.
Ah ok I found an example. Not being experienced with wiring more than 2 subs to a channel had me scratching my head. Looks like this works for each channel.



Very tempted to order 8 of these and a Inuke3000dsp to power them. Seems like the 6000 would be overkill for 8. Would be much easier to fit several small boxes rather than 2 large ones in my room. EDIT: or maybe not and 6000 is the ticket?

Last edited by pengy99; 04-21-2018 at 07:14 AM.
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post #207 of 2704 Old 04-21-2018, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pengy99 View Post
Ah ok I found an example. Not being experienced with wiring more than 2 subs to a channel had me scratching my head. Looks like this works for each channel.







Very tempted to order 8 of these and a Inuke3000dsp to power them. Seems like the 6000 would be overkill for 8. Would be much easier to fit several small boxes rather than 2 large ones in my room. EDIT: or maybe not and 6000 is the ticket?

Depends on box size. Smaller boxes the drivers can soak up more wattage. I’ve got example graphs a few pages back that show wattage needed to get to Xmax.


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post #208 of 2704 Old 04-21-2018, 03:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pengy99 View Post
Ah ok I found an example. Not being experienced with wiring more than 2 subs to a channel had me scratching my head. Looks like this works for each channel.



Very tempted to order 8 of these and a Inuke3000dsp to power them. Seems like the 6000 would be overkill for 8. Would be much easier to fit several small boxes rather than 2 large ones in my room. EDIT: or maybe not and 6000 is the ticket?
Yup. That's the configuration per channel.

I am driving 4 similar 12's (Infinity's) in large ported enclosures (efficient) with an NU3000DSP and can blink the red clip light with no sign of distress from the subs. For 8 drivers I would definitely step up to the 6000, especially for sealed.
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post #209 of 2704 Old 04-22-2018, 11:14 AM
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Ended up buying 8x CS1214 and the 6000dsp. May not actually use both channels of the amp. May not actually use all 8 subs. That said, the NU6000dsp ($308) was way to close in price to actually buy the NU3000dsp ($279). If I don't use all the subs I can probably just return them to my local Walmart or unload them on CL so it made sense to not risk them selling out. Now to build a couple boxes and hook up 4 of them just to see if I actually want 8.
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post #210 of 2704 Old 04-22-2018, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by pengy99 View Post
Ended up buying 8x CS1214 and the 6000dsp. May not actually use both channels of the amp. May not actually use all 8 subs. That said, the NU6000dsp ($308) was way to close in price to actually buy the NU3000dsp ($279). If I don't use all the subs I can probably just return them to my local Walmart or unload them on CL so it made sense to not risk them selling out. Now to build a couple boxes and hook up 4 of them just to see if I actually want 8.


Awsome

Yeah, i hooked up 4 and ended up ordering 8 MORE That’s how good they are.

And as discussed earlier, it’s better to have 8 in small boxes than 4 in bigger ones. And with small boxes, 4 on each NU6K channel is perfect

When i get my 12 up and running i wil try 6 on each channel in series parallel for 6 ohm total and see how that works.

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Last edited by Nalleh; 04-22-2018 at 11:36 AM.
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