12" JBL speaker $29 on black friday at Bestbuy - Page 70 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2071 of 2274 Old 04-28-2019, 02:44 PM
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https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...fer-array.html
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post #2072 of 2274 Old 05-01-2019, 07:30 PM
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Anybody running 8 of these off a NX3000D (~160W each)? Seems like that amp is more ideal for 2x2 or 1x9. I would have just gone with the NX6000D but the recent price increase makes it not such a great deal anymore. I thought about buying 1 more JBL for a magic square, but these will be my only farfield subs and I’m assuming 2 boxes will be better for room response.
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post #2073 of 2274 Old 05-01-2019, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MDJones View Post
Anybody running 8 of these off a NX3000D (~160W each)? Seems like that amp is more ideal for 2x2 or 1x9. I would have just gone with the NX6000D but the recent price increase makes it not such a great deal anymore. I thought about buying 1 more JBL for a magic square, but these will be my only farfield subs and I’m assuming 2 boxes will be better for room response.


I’m running four off of one channel on the inuke3000dsp predecessor to the NX. I could easily add another four on the second channel.


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post #2074 of 2274 Old 05-01-2019, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by usc1995 View Post
I’m running four off of one channel on the inuke3000dsp predecessor to the NX. I could easily add another four on the second channel.


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Are you running them farfield with boost on the low end? Any issues with headroom?
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post #2075 of 2274 Old 05-02-2019, 12:58 AM
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Originally Posted by usc1995 View Post
I’m running four off of one channel on the inuke3000dsp predecessor to the NX. I could easily add another four on the second channel.


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Hello! Could you post your Inuke settings? Are your 4 on 1 channel connected as series/parallel, giving a 4Ohm load to the Amp?
Thanks for your interest
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post #2076 of 2274 Old 05-02-2019, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MDJones View Post
Are you running them farfield with boost on the low end? Any issues with headroom?
I am running them up front in my room with a boost below 20hz. I followed the directions in this post but I am still fine tuning everything https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...z-dcx2496.html

I have the gain set at about 1 o'clock which is plenty loud in my room so I imagine I have a lot more head room if I decide I need it.
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post #2077 of 2274 Old 05-02-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by vn800art View Post
Hello! Could you post your Inuke settings? Are your 4 on 1 channel connected as series/parallel, giving a 4Ohm load to the Amp?
Thanks for your interest
Regards
Alessandro
I wired them in series/parallel to make a 4 ohm load. I followed the attached diagram as this was my first time doing anything like this. I followed this post for boosting below 20 hz https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...z-dcx2496.html
@LastButNotLeast recommends this as a starting place LS6 +9dB @ 20Hz for your inuke.
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post #2078 of 2274 Old 05-06-2019, 03:22 PM
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So right now I have 18 of these subs total. Currently only have eight wired and boxed up connected to both channels of an inuke 6k. I'm going for 2 of the magic square array but would I be better off putting all 18 in the front of the theater? My initial thought was 9 in the front and 9 at the rear of the theater behind the second row of seating but not sure if it will make a difference overall and placement with that much cone area. Can someone with far better experience than I, please chime in?

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post #2079 of 2274 Old 05-06-2019, 06:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlkmgr View Post
So right now I have 18 of these subs total. Currently only have eight wired and boxed up connected to both channels of an inuke 6k. I'm going for 2 of the magic square array but would I be better off putting all 18 in the front of the theater? My initial thought was 9 in the front and 9 at the rear of the theater behind the second row of seating but not sure if it will make a difference overall and placement with that much cone area. Can someone with far better experience than I, please chime in?
Locating several subs in different locations in a room helps to smooth over all bass response and not just for the main listening position, but all seats.
Front wall center and Back wall center is a combination that generally tests well.
If the goal is simply maximum SPL then stack them all as close together as possible.
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post #2080 of 2274 Old 05-08-2019, 12:25 AM
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Would something like this work? I really have zero carpenting skills and would prefer something pre assembled. https://www.toms-car-hifi.de/subwoof...inuslive?c=112. It says 50l (36l net).

Plan is to use 4 (so 8 in total) of them each on the side walls in front of the couch. I have have RCA and power cables on each side. Would it be better to run each array of 4 of an NX3000?.

Next would be 4 at the back of the couch nearfield. I am currently running Klipsch Ultra KW120 12" dual up front.

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post #2081 of 2274 Old 05-08-2019, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Nima View Post
Would something like this work? I really have zero carpenting skills and would prefer something pre assembled. https://www.toms-car-hifi.de/subwoof...inuslive?c=112. It says 50l (36l net).

Plan is to use 4 (so 8 in total) of them each on the side walls in front of the couch. I have have RCA and power cables on each side. Would it be better to run each array of 4 of an NX3000?.

Next would be 4 at the back of the couch nearfield. I am currently running Klipsch Ultra KW120 12" dual up front.
There is hope, even for folks like us:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...fer-array.html
Without measurements, it's impossible to tell where the "best" place for ANY of your subs is.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-au...et-graphs.html
And you need some form of eq, either the NX3000D or a miniDSP in the chain. The advantage of running two sets of four is that you can eq them separately. The disadvantage, of course, is that you lose the second channel for something else. A BOSS, for example:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html
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post #2082 of 2274 Old 05-08-2019, 05:53 AM
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Hi Michael,

Nice one, I need to find a box like that here in Europe.

I simulated room placement inside REW with the room simulator and will of course use a MiniDSP (2x4HD)

Does anyone know where to find nice boxes in the old world i.e. Europe?

Thanks,
N.
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post #2083 of 2274 Old 05-08-2019, 06:11 AM
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Try this, I bought from them, they could have other shapes as double or single boxes:
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F263100795507
Btw, I'm in Italy.
Regards
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post #2084 of 2274 Old 05-12-2019, 04:54 PM
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Hey everyone. I'm going to try to build 4 boxes (my first time building sub boxes) in order to use the JBL speakers and could use some help. I know getting prebuilt is a good route, but I wanted to build a box for a while and this looks about as easy as it'll get, so want to give it a try.

I'm going with 1 speaker per box for ease of modeling, but will eventually design 2 per box. I'd be putting them into a wife approved entertainment center design when its all said and done and will create a tread to show how it goes down the line.

Ok, to my issue. I used subbox.pro site to try to build out the subs and boxnotes software, but getting some different results. I'd like to go with 1.7 cuft internal, which seems to be optimal for these guys, but not sure what number I should be looking at for internal.

Here is the sub I did using the JBL specs. https://subbox.pro/en/b/Ir709raip
The one from boxnotes is attached. The sizes are completely different and I'm not sure which, if either, would be the best way to go.

If anyone already has done an optimal box for these, I'd love to see it and I could just tweak it to fit my needs. I'll be putting it into sketchup eventually to try to work it into an entertainment center.

While I have you -- another question or two. Do I need bracing for these (noticed the prebuilt boxes didn't have them)? And for the stuffing, I use 1.5 Walmart pillows per box based on @Chris Popovich recommendation and use some adhesive to glue them to the inside of the box?

Appreciate the help!
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post #2085 of 2274 Old 05-12-2019, 05:26 PM
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The good news is the EXACT internal size and amount of stuffing is flexible.

Your thoughts are perfectly in line on all accounts. If you are doing multiples you likely dont need bracing for your purpose...but if you glue in some braces its guaranteed to work well.

Box size...larger goes lower and or uses less power. But larger doesnt provide a huge difference while using multiples does. So sure ideally a 2 or 3cft box might be "better" but wastes a lot of space another sub could use...or 2 per box as you mentioned.

Keep it simple cheap straight forward and repeatable. My best advice. The magic is cheap easy multiples moreso than doing it perfectly.
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post #2086 of 2274 Old 05-12-2019, 08:47 PM
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Remember, use ~1.5 lbs of stuffing per cuft of net enclosure space... so 1.5 lbs for a 1 cu ft enclosure, 2.25 lbs for 1.5 cu ft enclosure, 3 lbs for 2 cu ft enclosure etc. Don't forget to subtract driver volume from your enclosure volume.

I would make one comment on box size. The lower the volume of the box, the harder the motor has to work against the air spring. We can overcome this with DSP and power but it's not free. Distortion increases significantly way down low, especially if you have a nasty house curve (which you should). My point being if you can avoid shoehorning them in to tiny enclosures, I would do so. Modelling doesn't show much of a difference between 1.5 cu ft and 1.25 cu ft (without considering driver volume) but I can hear quite a difference when pushed hard down low. I.e. it matters somewhat. Take this with a grain of salt, I agree with RoboAVS that you don't need an ideal enclosure, just don't get too crazy with shrinking it down. I prob wouldn't go above ~2 cu ft, unless you have space for days. I don't like 1 cu ft with these. 1.5+ ea. if you can is my anecdotal sweet spot recommendation if you're looking for 3-4 of these to compete with an ultimax in a 4 cu ft sealed box. To each their own, your mileage may vary, don't take wooden nickles, etc.
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Last edited by Chris Popovich; 05-12-2019 at 08:56 PM.
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post #2087 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 05:52 AM
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So here is my plan: I can purchase those JBLs from Harman here in Europe for around 40 Euros each. Then I will get double 12" boxes with 1.5 cf volume times two. I am planning to use 6 boxes. 4 on the side walls between main speakers and surrounds either lying on the floor or vertical next to the speakers and 2 double boxes behind the couch. That with the existing Klipsch KW120 Subs should give me a nice tickle I suppose?

I am not sure on the amps yet. I think I will go with a MiniDSP 2x4HD for the delays etc. I think each twin box should have his own channel in order to work with delays and gains correct? So two NX3000 (without DSP) for each side wall?

Edit: I am reading this whole thread in the parallel again and it seems nearfield subs are not to everyones liking. Maybe 4 in the back are too much? I could start with the 8 on the sidewalls and then move to the nearfield ones.

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post #2088 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 07:38 AM
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So you are buying 12 subs? If so, yes 12 will do the job lol.
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post #2089 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 07:54 AM
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So you are buying 12 subs? If so, yes 12 will do the job lol.
Yes but I am wondering if I should start with 8 and leave the nearfield experiment to another time. I read your comments about nearfield and I fear that I would also be to "distracted" by the constant back massage.
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post #2090 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 09:48 AM
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I really appreciate the feedback, RoboAVS and Chris. Good to know I'm not too far off. I'm thinking I won't include bracing since it doesn't sound like its essential and would complicate this thing that I'm already overthinking.

I'm planning on going with a 1.7 net internal per speaker with external dimensions around 20" x 15" x 20". For stuffing, it is looking about 2 1/2 pillows per box (1.7 net internal cuft × 1.5 lbs of stuffing per cuft = 2.55lbs of stuffing).

Does this sound about right? I mocked it up using JBL specs below.
https://subbox.pro/en/b/4XqDjRVeC
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post #2091 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Nima View Post
I read your comments about nearfield and I fear that I would also be to "distracted" by the constant back massage.
A lot of us go out of our way for that "back massage."
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-de...y-theater.html
Keep in mind that it's not "constant," but only supplements the deep bass. When a big truck passes your house, you don't just hear it, you feel the rumble. That's fun to reproduce.

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post #2092 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 11:01 AM
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Yes but I am wondering if I should start with 8 and leave the nearfield experiment to another time. I read your comments about nearfield and I fear that I would also be to "distracted" by the constant back massage.
Most of us have different opinions of nearfield, and if we like it how much.

My opinion is build all 12 but focus on farfield first. Having a great farfield response is much harder to create imo. Nearfield by its proximity makes response easy to handle across multiple seats.

The critical point I want to make is this -- although I strongly feel nearfield is awesome, I also believe the flexibilty to turn it off separate from the farfields, and equally important a separate setup provides the ability to alter how strong the nearfield should be as you begin to use it, and what frequencies it handles.

I choose, for now, to have my nearfield be subtle. its obvious when a giant robot takes a step, or something explodes, but otherwise you might not know its on for many listeners. It adds a clear physical push of air to the onscreen action.

Nearfield in general, from my own POV, adds a physical feel/heaviness to bass which is both cool and slightly distracting. Most people are not used to feeling bass except in a theater or at a concert. If you have a very good farfield response with multiple subs you can easily hear/feel the difference when you add a well integrated set of nearfields.

Also every room is different. In any sealed room doing multiple 12s....I cant stress enough to go sealed for nearfield. As an example, I have big ported subs flat to 10hz in room. But when I added 4 smaller sealed nearfield subs with lots of capability, I can not only reach down to 5 and below flat, I have the headroom to boost that bottom end below 20 (and below 10hz too down to where equipment rolls off gently below 5hz). Since under 20hz needs a lot of spl, it seems an amazing bonus to me to get this.

So my nearfield is subtle at most frequencies above 20hz, but is integrated in such a way I can boost from 20 and down in a beautifully increasing curve down to about 5.

So to conclude this ramble, nearfield can not only add feel but potentially the bottom end that few can experience fully. Build them now, but integrate them separately after setting up the rest. Having the flexibilty to alter your nearfield without having to redo the rest imo is a no brainer.

If you cant improve farfield with nearfield, dont do it! Ported and sealed together covering the full sub range can be very challenging...and rewarding.
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post #2093 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 11:19 AM
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I run 8 up front and I like them a lot. I still get a massage on the loud deep stuff...John wick tunnel scene was chest thumping.

You can make nearfield not as crazy by doing a highpass at 35hz or so, but to me thats a waste. I would rather run 12 up front from 15-80/90/100hz then 8 up front and 4 nearfield at 15-35/40hz (or whatever cut off you want, the higher the cut off the more localization). I ran a POS kenwood 8 nearfield for awhile but only ran it to 40hz and if I sat in the right place it actually worked well since it was so close. I had to turn the xover all the way down though to get a good sound.

While I think its a waste to run them from 15-35/40hz...they are cheaper than most bass shakers. With that I would start with 8 upfront and see how you like it, if you need more and have the room, Id run another 8 upfront for 16 LOL. I just like the farfield effect alot more than nearfield. it seems to envelope you more instead of just bash you. I ran 4 nearfield for awhile and it was cool, but for me it was too in my face and a waste of what the jbl's are meant for. 4 jbl's have more midbass than an 18...so why run them from 15-40hz when they shine from 40-80hz over an 18?

All just personal preference.

Another guy in this thread I talked into running farfield over nearfield and I forget his input on it...think he put 8 12's up with his LCR and then 2 18's behind his couch. Maybe he will Chime in.

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post #2094 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 02:05 PM
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Mine (see avatar) are right behind me/us. Not distracting at all.
I replaced a ButtKicker with one JBL in the back of my seat (see BOSS thread). Separate purposes, separate eqs. Working great.
So ten JBLs in use, two in storage as backup.
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post #2095 of 2274 Old 05-13-2019, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Most of us have different opinions of nearfield, and if we like it how much.

My opinion is build all 12 but focus on farfield first. Having a great farfield response is much harder to create imo. Nearfield by its proximity makes response easy to handle across multiple seats.

The critical point I want to make is this -- although I strongly feel nearfield is awesome, I also believe the flexibilty to turn it off separate from the farfields, and equally important a separate setup provides the ability to alter how strong the nearfield should be as you begin to use it, and what frequencies it handles.

I choose, for now, to have my nearfield be subtle. its obvious when a giant robot takes a step, or something explodes, but otherwise you might not know its on for many listeners. It adds a clear physical push of air to the onscreen action.

Nearfield in general, from my own POV, adds a physical feel/heaviness to bass which is both cool and slightly distracting. Most people are not used to feeling bass except in a theater or at a concert. If you have a very good farfield response with multiple subs you can easily hear/feel the difference when you add a well integrated set of nearfields.

Also every room is different. In any sealed room doing multiple 12s....I cant stress enough to go sealed for nearfield. As an example, I have big ported subs flat to 10hz in room. But when I added 4 smaller sealed nearfield subs with lots of capability, I can not only reach down to 5 and below flat, I have the headroom to boost that bottom end below 20 (and below 10hz too down to where equipment rolls off gently below 5hz). Since under 20hz needs a lot of spl, it seems an amazing bonus to me to get this.

So my nearfield is subtle at most frequencies above 20hz, but is integrated in such a way I can boost from 20 and down in a beautifully increasing curve down to about 5.

So to conclude this ramble, nearfield can not only add feel but potentially the bottom end that few can experience fully. Build them now, but integrate them separately after setting up the rest. Having the flexibilty to alter your nearfield without having to redo the rest imo is a no brainer.

If you cant improve farfield with nearfield, dont do it! Ported and sealed together covering the full sub range can be very challenging...and rewarding.
Interesting! You're doing ported farfield and sealed nearfield? I'm contemplating doing the same. I'm running sealed up front right now but have room for two full marty's up front with UM18's. What keeps me from doing it is the nearfield (JBLs) sealed. The Marty's do a phase switch by the time you get down to tuning right? How hard is it to integrate the sealed nearfield with that?
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post #2096 of 2274 Old 05-14-2019, 09:41 AM
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I run 8 up front and I like them a lot. I still get a massage on the loud deep stuff...John wick tunnel scene was chest thumping.

You can make nearfield not as crazy by doing a highpass at 35hz or so, but to me thats a waste. I would rather run 12 up front from 15-80/90/100hz then 8 up front and 4 nearfield at 15-35/40hz (or whatever cut off you want, the higher the cut off the more localization). I ran a POS kenwood 8 nearfield for awhile but only ran it to 40hz and if I sat in the right place it actually worked well since it was so close. I had to turn the xover all the way down though to get a good sound.

While I think its a waste to run them from 15-35/40hz...they are cheaper than most bass shakers. With that I would start with 8 upfront and see how you like it, if you need more and have the room, Id run another 8 upfront for 16 LOL. I just like the farfield effect alot more than nearfield. it seems to envelope you more instead of just bash you. I ran 4 nearfield for awhile and it was cool, but for me it was too in my face and a waste of what the jbl's are meant for. 4 jbl's have more midbass than an 18...so why run them from 15-40hz when they shine from 40-80hz over an 18?

All just personal preference.

Another guy in this thread I talked into running farfield over nearfield and I forget his input on it...think he put 8 12's up with his LCR and then 2 18's behind his couch. Maybe he will Chime in.
I fully understand why some do LPF the nearfields, especially if cranked up relative to farfield it can and will distract imo.

But I agree with you on the filters. Thats why I suggest getting farfield right first, then add nearfield and using gain you can easily test what you like.

i get why people use multiple subs in different ranges, but my take is this -- the best positions for my subs are known. i have no interest in having 2 or 3 different subs in each spot stacked or next to each other to accomodate what does ULF, bass and midbass best. Instead i have all subs including nearfield playing the same range -- 1 to 100hz (crossover).

Localization nearfield occurs because either there are not enough farfield subs well placed or the nearfields are simply too loud compared to the farfield. But...I get Im me, others love a huge shake. In those cases they do need a LPF somewhere to push down 80hz and up.
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post #2097 of 2274 Old 05-14-2019, 10:07 AM
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Interesting! You're doing ported farfield and sealed nearfield? I'm contemplating doing the same. I'm running sealed up front right now but have room for two full marty's up front with UM18's. What keeps me from doing it is the nearfield (JBLs) sealed. The Marty's do a phase switch by the time you get down to tuning right? How hard is it to integrate the sealed nearfield with that?
In my sealed treated theater (vs untreated living room theater thats open) I was shocked how much room gain I get down low. A LOT. So much it makes me wish I haad considered sealed all around, but then again I would need 10 or 12 big sealed subs to match just my farfield ported. Space considerations matter. I knew I had room gain, because the model vs sweeps showed some nice gain from 25 down to 10...but I never had a shot to get much below 10hz...and boom, nearfield subs away from all walls and corners have huge gain. I will post my measurements and integration at some point when I get up the nerve to figure how I can easily post pictures...maybe Im missing something but it seems way harder than just attaching a file.

If you follow the mtg90 strategy, you figure you have an existing farfield response, a new nearfield response, and then the combination of the two. You should test "how much" nearfield you want for days or weeks ahead of time before going to a final integration. If you dont, the integration may go on for months trying to tweak them together.

The challenege of integrating nearfield sealed to ported farfield is 2 fold -- does the spl increase as it should....AND...is the feel there?

The spl increase is easy to see of course. Measure farfield by itself, measure nearfield by itself, then measure both together. As you allude to, the rough integration without changing delay or phase will likely show mostly a big increase above the ported tune. The trick then is how to minimize the area where there is little or no gain. Phase and or distance will get you there. It can be challenging but it can be done well. In my case, from roughly 15hz to 25hz the sum of far and near is the same or a bit lower than the individual results, the rest is significantly higher -- above and below that range.

So spend some time trying different delays, phase settings and then once its optimized, you want to do some subjective feel tests. You will always feel your nearfields...but are the farfields making the feel better worse or same? If feel goes down you still have integration problems.

Once delays and phase are set, then you do EQ. NOW this sxxx gets way tricky --
If your response allows the nearfields to be in phase with the farfields, EQ should be easier, but still requires that you step thru each change one at a time. You want to fix that range between 15 and 25, you may need to boost one set, the other set, both....or, quite possibly reducing one source in that range will INCREASE output because they interfere in that range with those delay settings.

If they are out of phase with each other, it adds another layer which is....doing the opposite EQ you think in many cases!

Regardless, the process of EQ (if used) is best done one band at a time, solve one dip or peak at a time. Remember if boosting both results in worse response they are canceling each other there. I found this process fun and rewarding and easier than I though (figured might be impossible).
Im a measuring fool, I measure everything.

If someone is interested in my measurements, please give me easy step by step instructions to post them using my Samsung S8 or a Samsung touchpad. I used to post from my computer all the time but dont use it anymore and have a lot of troublefinding a place to just attach a picture file. LOL and yes I have a computer sciemce degree 😂 i have not tried tapatalk if that is better?
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I will post my measurements and integration at some point when I get up the nerve to figure how I can easily post pictures...maybe Im missing something but it seems way harder than just attaching a file.

With Windows, open the file explorer, locate the images, drag and drop them into the "Drag and Drop File Upload" section of AVS on the browser. Click on the "Go advance/preview post" button, on the bottom you will notice the attachments. Right click on the desired photo and select "copy link location". On the toolbar of the AVS message section, click the little photo icon "insert image" paste in the link you copied earlier Now that is annoying enough for a beer or three! Just remember to post responsibly and whatever you do, do not elevate yourself to admin privileges in the command prompt and type in diskpart, that could end badly.
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post #2099 of 2274 Old 05-14-2019, 10:33 AM
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If someone is interested in my measurements, please give me easy step by step instructions to post them using my Samsung S8 or a Samsung touchpad. I used to post from my computer all the time but dont use it anymore and have a lot of troublefinding a place to just attach a picture file. LOL and yes I have a computer sciemce degree i have not tried tapatalk if that is better?

Tapatalk is very easy to use. Easy to attach photos and a much cleaner look than mobile AVS in a browser. Highly recommend it.

Leave it at 8 ohms and call it a day :)
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post #2100 of 2274 Old 05-14-2019, 10:38 AM
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