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post #2191 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 03:32 AM
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I have found Dirac gets confused with too much going on and crazy high peaks. I end up pulling down something ridiculous like 15-20dB around 60Hz, before I let Dirac sniff around and make the world a better place. I also mess with the gain on the amplifiers to suit my needs. What do I mean like that? I mean mains amp may be a 1502 with the 1.4V setting. Sub amp is bridged and on the .775V setting, so electrical signal wise in the minidsp it LOOKS like not much low frequency info is going on. I.e. I ain't clipping my minidsp on the bottom end. This is why I have ~300 watts/channel on mains and ~6kw or so for everything else. Think of it as subwoofer boost without eating up minidsp headroom. You guys with receivers can't easily do that, but it's the equivalent of setting your mains as -3dB or -6dB instead of 0; sub level at a given point went up relatively speaking. This is all more important because I do my subharmonic synthesis BEFORE I touch eq/minidsp/Dirac (kinda have to, otherwise it's all weird and wonky sounding, and we can't have that).

It's also another reason to use a billion subs. That first watt goes further, making everything easier.
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post #2192 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 03:42 AM
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Chris I am using the NAD only as a Pre and run my Klipsch CF-3 through my Parasound 2205. The curve I applied with Dirac pulls down the Mid and High end, it's a Harman curve from Markus.

For the JBLs I use an XLS 2502 on the .775 setting. The MiniDSP rarely goes into the yellow area. I reckon I still have enough headroom?

Edit: So how much should I do via REW/AutoEQ and the MiniDSP and how much with Dirac? At the moment, as you can see, the heaviy cutting and boosting at the lower end is all down within the MiniDSP. Dirac is just the icing on the cream. Is that approach ok?

TIA

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post #2193 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 04:04 AM
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It sounds fine, but those super sensitive klipsch are taking things the wrong way for easy of implementation. That's alright!

I try not to do too much boosting with Dirac. I, too, have a curve that's similar to the Harmon curve. The peak of my target frequency response is maybe +3dB for Dirac, by far I'm doing more cutting than anything else. I may be giving up a little S/N ratio in exchange for not clipping. I'm ok with that.

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post #2194 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 04:17 AM
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That's why I bought 4 dual 15 boxes and then made a baffle for 12s. 1.75ish per sub in the end. Used loctite and screws to seal the baffle to it. That was when Ebay had 20% off coupons so I didn't pay much at all. Hope those coupons return
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post #2195 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 04:20 AM
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Mine have 1.7 per sub.
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post #2196 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
Guys the sims are sims. Do not take them to the bank until you've run the real thing in real space.

Sim wise it's not a huge deal, but remember these are budget drivers. What I have personally observed is that my 4 sealed/stuffed 1.25 cuft JBL's used for my computer system distort on loud low frequencies FAR earlier on the SPL spectrum than the same in ~1.6 cuft enclosures. Let's think about it; smaller box, more boost, more power, more heat, more air non-linearities, more reliance on the cheap motor..... anyone surprised at more distortion? To me that's expected when you spend some time thinking about it.

If you have enough of them I don't think it matters, but I don't like these drivers as much in 1.25 cuft as I do in 1.5cuft+, and they probably stop being worth their space (IMO) above 2 cuft unless you just have mountains of available volume.

Note that I DO use a subharmonic synth, and that adds significantly to the 15-35hz content, so this is going to be more obvious to me than you guys (most likely).
Yup, I agree. Thats why I went overkill on the number of drivers. I don't really push the 4 drivers I have now (1.5 cf each), and I'm tripling the number when my 3 other subs are installed. And of the 4 subs total, 2 of them (with 4 subs each) will be nearfield reducing the SPL loss you have the farther away from them you move. Each will be less than 3 feet from the main LP's and a total of 8 feet (2.5m) from the centerline of the room. This allows me to flexibility when programming my boost given the power I have on tap (4 amps total, one for each cabinet, and each one capable of 2000 watts plus bridged), while keeping the overall gain low, hopefully limiting distortion.

IE I planned for overkill, hoping to use no more than 50% of its potential at even my loudest, to ensure clean un-distorted bass..... now we will see if it pans out in real life in a few more weeks once everything is in and installed......

And each driver will have about 1.5 if not 1.8cf per so they aren't choking on lack of air inside their box....

I cannot wait to get all 4 hooked up and EQ'd. Thats happening the third weekend of July when I have the entire weekend with no kids/wife and can just run test tones and tweak all day...
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post #2197 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 06:28 AM
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so they aren't choking on lack of air inside their box..
Thanks to Chris, I have so much stuffing in each box, there's probably no air.

Michael

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post #2198 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 06:54 AM
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Thanks to Chris, I have so much stuffing in each box, there's probably no air.

Michael
Stuffing is my other problem. I calculated the amount using the incorrect internal volume listed for the HDPower box. Now that I realize the box is smaller, I also realize that I put too much stuffing in the boxes -- a full 2 pounds per cubic foot. I guess I'm going to have to unscrew the drivers and lighten it up.

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post #2199 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 06:57 AM
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No, you won't. As long as the cone has room to move, you're (probably) okay.
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2200 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 07:02 AM
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Crap... I bought 2 2-hole boxes with 1.25 per driver (before any displacement) because the form factor is PERFECT.

2 of them with the line up perfect with the 1*4 (57.5") Ikea kalax top and bottom to make a faux tv stand that lines up EXACTLY to my 60" kuro. It seems like a PERFECT no building-required "diy" solution... Was also considering hiding another couple 2x2 boxes with 1x2 kalax (3") as side-tables or plant stands...

I have a maelstrom x18 in 6cu to maybe help fill in down low... Also have an si ht18 in 4 cu that I planned to sell because the form just doesn't work (and eventually replace with the extra 1*2 pairs)

The modeling says this should be ok I think (not sure how much of the 1.25 is lost to displacement) and I don't have tools or space to work...

Should I just ride it out and do as planned???

Here is the kallax 1x4 I'm referring to (there's even a glass top you can get for a better look/protection):
https://m2.ikea.com/us/en/p/kallax-shelf-unit-black-brown-40275846/

And the box I have (x2):
https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_1583_Dual-12-3-4-MDF-Sealed-Subwoofer-Enclosure-Belva-MDFD12.html

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post #2201 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 07:40 AM
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This "s" problem is getting really annoying.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-fo...364-115-s.html

Michael
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Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2202 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 09:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
This "s" problem is getting really annoying.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/43-fo...364-115-s.html

Michael
FWIW I just ignore those posts entirely. Not going to spend my time deciphering hieroglyphics even if I have the key lol....

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post #2203 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 10:20 AM
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Wow I just managed to escape enhanced view (which I hate but sometimes won't turn off) and see what people are talking about
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post #2204 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 10:37 AM
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Now THAT post came out fine.
You might want to let Admin know what you've done (link in post 2201); that may provide a clue to a solution.

Michael

Did you really need to quote that entire post in your reply?
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post #2205 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 10:38 AM
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I just condensed my 2 recent posts and added more info after exiting enhanced mobile view
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post #2206 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 10:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Now THAT post came out fine.
You might want to let Admin know what you've done (link in post 2201); that may provide a clue to a solution.

Michael
It looks like what the linked thread said is accurate: enhanced mobile view on chrome browser...

I really dislike enhanced mobile view but sometimes it refuses to turn off
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post #2207 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 10:40 AM
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Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
It looks like what the linked thread said is accurate: enhanced mobile view on chrome browser...

I really dislike enhanced mobile view but sometimes it refuses to turn off
suggest installing tapatalk on your phone. easy to use, and then no worries....

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post #2208 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 11:40 AM
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OMG I just watched that wormhole ride in Interstellar. Wow!

Edit: Just read on Data Bass that there is supposed to be clipping in that soundtrack, thought it sounded weird at times. So the clipping is in the recording?

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/topic/4...n-poll-closed/

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post #2209 of 2295 Old 06-12-2019, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goonstopher View Post
Just add more stuffing. Should be fine.
Michael

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post #2210 of 2295 Old 06-13-2019, 05:49 PM
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Backstory - I've been lurking here a long time but I've been designing and building speakers (well, subs) since around 2002. Familiar with WinIsd and recently REW. I purchased 8 JBLs back in Aug 2018 and left them sitting in a closet due to lack of time to do anything with them.

Fast forward to now...a coworker and I work for a small engineering company. He has a lot of side-projects and hobbies, many of which require a CNC machine. So he built one. I mentioned my idea for building a sub enclosure and off he went (using Fusion 360). I told him I needed internal bracing, gave him a rough outline of what I wanted to do and I think the results turned out great. Cutting has already started.


https://www.instagram.com/p/BvWuHEpASgn/
https://www.youtube.com/user/sbirdranch/videos


My constraints were : (1) I could only buy 2'x4' MDF since I don't have a truck (2) I'm limited in height for enclosure since I will place them under my projection screen.

Given the above I designed an enclosure with 4 JBLs each, slightly offset vertically to fit the height constraint. Dimensions are roughly 24x42x13(?). Enough for about 50L per driver.


Ultimately I'll have two of the enclosures and will compare them to my current setup to see what can stay and what needs to go. Currently have a couple Crown XLS 1002 amps but may purchase additional amps if I keep the existing pieces.


Subs will be in rather large basement, concrete slab, unfortunately. Dimensions are 40' x 15' by 8'.
Current setup is two PA-460, ported and built to Dayton's recommended size (~5.6 cu ft) and a sealed Stryke (now Acoustic Elegance) AV-15 (purchased roughly 2002). Honestly I wish I would have bought a couple of those at the time because they are really, really good drivers with a nice aluminum cone. Especially when I had it in a 250L ported 16hz enclosure before I moved...but I digress. www.web.archive.org/web/20030604123845/http://stryke.com/AVseries.html


Anyway, once we (he) gets everything cut, I'll assembly one enclosure and post results. Thanks for all the ideas and knowledge shared in the past.


Edit: Ignore the 3" circle cut outs on the sides. There will be one cut out on the back for speaker post connection.
Finally managed to get box 1 of 2 done. Location in pictures is not final location just taking picture for size comparison to PA-460s.


I did a quick calibration with REW and MiniDSP. Attached images with raw results, DSP, and comparison to existing PA-460 + AV15. Need a lot more testing and obviously room treatment. Couple of concerning nulls that are present regardless of subs measured...
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post #2211 of 2295 Old 06-14-2019, 07:33 AM
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For size restraints I wonder how these would do on 4 sides of a cube, Might work for space constraints. Could make an easy end table lol.

Last 3 movies I watched with no subs and have been blasting just 7.0 The more I listen the less I want to turn the subs back on. Its been a nice test though because ive realized my speakers can handle high volume really well and I noticed my subs are overpowering for no reason. So if I turn them back on the levels will be way low to start and ill gradually raise them to match lcr. Some people think audyssey doesnt set everything up well, im learning it just needs to be turned up louder. Im 1 click hot on my nu6000dsp from where audyssey put it, and new volumes I need to be 1-2 clicks below.

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post #2212 of 2295 Old 06-14-2019, 08:20 AM
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It's all a matter of personal preference. Some people aren't happy unless their fillings fall out and the walls crack.
I'm not quite that extreme (yet), but I miss the subs when they're off.
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post #2213 of 2295 Old 06-14-2019, 09:58 AM
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Trilkb,

That sounds to me like you gotta work on your target room curve. I like the Harmon Curve as a start, but find that often I boost 60-100hz a dB or so less, 100-200hz definitely at least a dB or two less, and 40hz and under +3dB. It's a little heavy on the 16hzish content but it's fun. What I'm getting at is that I'm super sensitive to overblown mid and upper bass. Come back to the dark side. We miss you.
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post #2214 of 2295 Old 06-14-2019, 10:40 AM
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Quote:
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Trilkb,

That sounds to me like you gotta work on your target room curve. I like the Harmon Curve as a start, but find that often I boost 60-100hz a dB or so less, 100-200hz definitely at least a dB or two less, and 40hz and under +3dB. It's a little heavy on the 16hzish content but it's fun. What I'm getting at is that I'm super sensitive to overblown mid and upper bass. Come back to the dark side. We miss you.
hahaha.

I dont have overpowering mid bass, im just learning im looking for a more balanced sound at higher levels. Previously id have people over and id run it hot for the aw factor but then problem was if I was at volume 65 before I was going up to 70. So lately with subs off Ive been going up to 77-80db and the dialogue is just so much better/clearer to me. At that volume before the subs would be killing the room lol. We will see how it goes.

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Guys I should know this but too lazy to look.

What size disconnects do you need for the positive and negative connectors on the subs?


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post #2216 of 2295 Old 06-14-2019, 11:21 AM
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Guys I should know this but too lazy to look.

What size disconnects do you need for the positive and negative connectors on the subs?

And anyone have a source for insulated versions of those and the Y version of what you need for the neutrick plug installed for the speaker wire?


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post #2217 of 2295 Old 06-14-2019, 11:29 AM
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You know what would really make my Father's Day complete? If BestBuy put these babies on sale for $29.99 again on Sunday. That'd be great.

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post #2218 of 2295 Old 06-14-2019, 12:54 PM
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Played Star Trek into the Darkness tonight and a few times just for maybe a quick millisecond the Crown XLS 2502 showed the red clipping light during some intense ULF scences (ship jumping out of warp).

It was super quick and I could not hear any distortion.

Reducing MV -2 dB and it did not do that.

Just I be worried about the light or is this normal?
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post #2219 of 2295 Old 06-15-2019, 09:51 AM
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Not that I should be surprised, but I learned (confirmed) that content is a huge part of testing subs. I played a few minutes of Avengers Infinity War off of Netflix a few days ago and wasn’t that impressed. By contrast, I watched an old Game of Thrones episode last night with a neighbor, and the bass was thumping really hard. So much so that I actually dialed back the amps a little after I had previously cranked them to the top during the Avengers excerpt.

After getting popped in the chest with bass during GoT, I’m very impressed with the subs so far! I still need to dial everything in, but they showed last night that they’ll be up to the task. For those who haven’t read this thread’s history, I have 16 of them, each in a 1.3 cubic foot enclosure (actual interior space before adding the driver), and I’m running them with a pair of Behringer NX3000D amps — each amp channel is driving four drivers wired together so they collectively present a 4 ohm load.

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post #2220 of 2295 Old 06-15-2019, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue View Post
Not that I should be surprised, but I learned (confirmed) that content is a huge part of testing subs. I played a few minutes of Avengers Infinity War off of Netflix a few days ago and wasn’t that impressed. By contrast, I watched an old Game of Thrones episode last night with a neighbor, and the bass was thumping really hard. So much so that I actually dialed back the amps a little after I had previously cranked them to the top during the Avengers excerpt.

After getting popped in the chest with bass during GoT, I’m very impressed with the subs so far! I still need to dial everything in, but they showed last night that they’ll be up to the task. For those who haven’t read this thread’s history, I have 16 of them, each in a 1.3 cubic foot enclosure (actual interior space before adding the driver), and I’m running them with a pair of Behringer NX3000D amps — each amp channel is driving four drivers wired together so they collectively present a 4 ohm load.
Good deal! I started out with a pair of UM18's but added 8 of the JBLs after reading this thread. The JBLs, in number, certainly can get the job done.

As for content, I've found that the Marvel movies are "about right" most of the time if not a little light in the bass overall. I'm not sure if the Netflix version is different (certainly could be). I've found that "Aquaman" is a bit overboard and my nearfield bass borders on annoying. It's not enough to turn them down though as every other movie I've tried is spot on so I don't want to mess with it.
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