12" JBL speaker $29 on black friday at Bestbuy - Page 81 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2401 of 2441 Old 08-04-2019, 09:39 PM
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I'm certainly not against having a bunch of these suckers. I just wanted to throw it out there for people with more modest ambitions that these are still a viable option. I'm sure 8 or more is awesome, but I was able to accomplish my goals with only 4. It fixed some holes in the response, tightened up the bass, and can still manage to give me a headache on que. My room is only about 15x15 though, so the smaller size helps. By next week I'll probably want 4 or 12 more.

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post #2402 of 2441 Old 08-06-2019, 08:17 PM
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I did a thing. And it is awesome! Thanks to everyone here! Results so far are amazing!

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post #2403 of 2441 Old 08-11-2019, 01:34 PM
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Replaced my first driver in the Organ donor. The old one works but had some Voicecoil rub.

So question... Anyone have a spare CS1214 to sell (at a reasonable friend/family price) so I can stay stocked with 4 extras hehehehe....

And yes I only want the CS1214 as I want all the drivers to match looks wise.

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post #2404 of 2441 Old 08-11-2019, 04:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Four is fine as a "magic square;" the next step up is to nine (3x3). Eight speakers are hard to wire together as far as the load on the amp is concerned.
I was planning on going with 8 on 2 channels (4 each channel), but saw this and was wondering why it would be harder on the amp?
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post #2405 of 2441 Old 08-11-2019, 04:24 PM
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I was planning on going with 8 on 2 channels (4 each channel), but saw this and was wondering why it would be harder on the amp?
I believe he meant 8 on one channel. Your 4 pr channel would be the magic square he is talking about pr channel
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post #2406 of 2441 Old 08-11-2019, 06:20 PM
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Project update:

Not only do I not like my triple twelve design, but also the guys helping (finish carpenters) meant well but are not accurate enough for my purposes. Enter plan B.

Plan B:

quad twelve, dual opposed, 29" tall, 16" wide, 26" deep. Box volume is at the bottom of what I like, but the size & shape are super do-able, very versatile, and flexible with respect to house orientation (side ways... stacked.... by themselves... like awesome legos). I'll make up for the lower box volume with a million of them. Bracing is overkill, most of it is interlocking but not all (for manufacturability). It should be nice and stout when done.

Drawing plans out with NX. Will lay out, and have everything cut by local CNC shop. Once the first one is done, the rest will be cookie cutter.

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post #2407 of 2441 Old 08-11-2019, 06:43 PM
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I think it's 16" deep and 26" wide. Firing side to side, right?
They'll be far enough apart not to be firing into one another?
Michael

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post #2408 of 2441 Old 08-11-2019, 06:50 PM
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For some of them, yes, they'll be side firing (so 16" deep). They'll still fire at each other but as long as they have 4" or so between them it shouldn't matter. They'll have more than 4" by a large margin. When room allows I'd rather have them be 26" deep, out only a couple inches from back wall, but we'll see. It's going to be FUN to assemble and start messing around with the best sort of legos.
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post #2409 of 2441 Old 08-11-2019, 07:05 PM
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Very HEAVY LEGOs.

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post #2410 of 2441 Old 08-12-2019, 07:37 AM
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couple quick questions as I lost track of this thread now that it's 60+ pages! lol

are there any deals currently?

and anyone have t/s parameters for modeling?

thanks!

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post #2411 of 2441 Old 08-12-2019, 02:50 PM
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and anyone have t/s parameters for modeling?


https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...l#post55986386
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post #2412 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 04:20 AM
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Unfortunately, the carpeting covering the sub boxes I purchased is disintegrating in several spots. So now my boxes look bad. I could strip the carpeting off entirely and repaint them. However, as mentioned in my prior posts, it turns out that the boxes aren't as big as advertised -- the website described the volume using the outer dimensions of the wood, not the actual size of the internal space, and I neglected to double check the calculations that were advertised. So rather than invest time sprucing up boxes that are smaller than ideal, I think I'm going to build new ones. Fortunately, my friend who is an excellent carpenter is retiring from the Navy on Labor Day weekend and can help me build them while he takes a few months off before his next job.

This brings me to a couple actual questions (I know, FINALLY) --

I'd prefer my sub boxes to stick out into the room as little as possible. Is there a minimum box depth beyond which it might start to adversely affect the performance of one of these JBL drivers?

Is 1.5 cubic feet still the consensus for the ideal internal volume?

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post #2413 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 09:42 AM
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I like 1.5, but I'd settle for 1.2 if you had enough. I wouldn't go much below that... maybe if you had a million of them (shifty eyes).

As far as depth goes, standard is two inches behind the driver. These are fairly shallow drivers. If you're going through the trouble of making a nice box, I would give a LITTLE more wiggle room in the event that some day you decide you want to keep the boxes but upgrade the drivers. Mounting depth is 6-1/16", call minimum internal box depth 8". You could probably squeeze that a little less, I'd try to stretch it another inch or so, not so much for this performance, but if you want to upgrade down the road, it'll give you more options to just bolt in more performance. If you don't care about that, I'd go with a 9.5" or 10" deep box (external dimensions, assuming 3/4" single wall material).
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post #2414 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 09:50 AM
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My 6 twin boxes are 8.5 inches (22cm) deep. Everything working nice and smoothly with my 12 babies. Net volume is 100 Liters per twin box. Recently discovered BEQ and I am in bass (ULF) heaven. Thank you guys for this thread. [IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif[/IMG][IMG class=inlineimg]/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif[/IMG]
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post #2415 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Popovich View Post
I like 1.5, but I'd settle for 1.2 if you had enough. I wouldn't go much below that... maybe if you had a million of them (shifty eyes).

As far as depth goes, standard is two inches behind the driver. These are fairly shallow drivers. If you're going through the trouble of making a nice box, I would give a LITTLE more wiggle room in the event that some day you decide you want to keep the boxes but upgrade the drivers. Mounting depth is 6-1/16", call minimum internal box depth 8". You could probably squeeze that a little less, I'd try to stretch it another inch or so, not so much for this performance, but if you want to upgrade down the road, it'll give you more options to just bolt in more performance. If you don't care about that, I'd go with a 9.5" or 10" deep box (external dimensions, assuming 3/4" single wall material).
How big is too big, or should I aim for 1.5 on the dot?

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post #2416 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 11:04 AM
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I'm disappointed in myself for not doing the calculations to figure out, before I purchased and used them, that the QPOWER HD 12 four hole boxes are smaller than advertised. I just assumed 1.6 cubic feet of "airspace" meant the interior measurement.

The outer dimensions they advertise give 7.2ft external. What were your boxes once you measured them? Internal or external...
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post #2417 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 11:05 AM
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With signal shaping/limiting, there is no such thing as too big. They just become infinite baffle at some ridiculous box size. Realistically, in the vicinity of 1.5 is pretty good, plus or minus a little as long as you have enough to reach your goals.

Remember, models show estimated targets. They're a rough guideline, not really that accurate real world, particularly if you're plugging in values from a data sheet, not measuring actual woofer parameters. In my experience these don't perform as well with the smaller boxes, to an extent that's more significant than a model suggests (could dB, no big deal.... eh... not so much).

This is exacerbated by my use of a subharmonic synth.

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post #2418 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 11:09 AM
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How big is too big, or should I aim for 1.5 on the dot?
The differences are small, but the bigger the better. Only a dB or 2 difference down low between 1.2 and 1.5 cubic ft.
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post #2419 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 11:12 AM
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The outer dimensions they advertise give 7.2ft external. What were your boxes once you measured them? Internal or external...
They were, at least at the time, listed as 1.6 cuft per sub, or 6.4 cuft total. They are... external dimensions. Actual internal dimensions were pretty close to 1.2 cuft IIRC. External were spot on for 1.6cuft whatever that's worth (to me: nothing). Still works fine, just don't be surprised if they get cranky super low and loud. Boost wise it's a big difference at 16hz between the two, regardless of what the models say.

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post #2420 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 11:16 AM
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The outer dimensions they advertise give 7.2ft external. What were your boxes once you measured them? Internal or external...
I believe each box is just barely over 1.2 cubic feet internally. Based on the advertised "airspace" of 1.6, I thought I was getting something bigger. I'm happy with the subs in these boxes. If the carpeting wasn't disintegrating, I wouldn't bother replacing them. But if I'm going to have to go to the trouble of stripping the carpeting and repainting them, I might as well build new ones that are over 1.5 cubic feet internally.

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post #2421 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 11:19 AM
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They were, at least at the time, listed as 1.6 cuft per sub, or 6.4 cuft total. They are... external dimensions. Actual internal dimensions were pretty close to 1.2 cuft IIRC. External were spot on for 1.6cuft whatever that's worth (to me: nothing). Still works fine, just don't be surprised if they get cranky super low and loud. Boost wise it's a big difference at 16hz between the two, regardless of what the models say.

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I believe each box is just barely over 1.2 cubic feet internally. Based on the advertised "airspace" of 1.6, I thought I was getting something bigger. I'm happy with the subs in these boxes. If the carpeting wasn't disintegrating, I wouldn't bother replacing them. But if I'm going to have to go to the trouble of stripping the carpeting and repainting them, I might as well build new ones that are over 1.5 cubic feet internally.
Interesting, because the dimensions say 17x14x52.25, and that's 7.2 external. Unless they've changed something during the time from then to now... ?
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post #2422 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 11:36 AM
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How is it interesting? Pretty simple to take a tape measure, inside or outside, measure actual, multiply 'em, divide by 1728 and you get your volume, inner or outer. What ya bought isn't what ya got. They have tons of different versions, who is to say you're looking at the same thing I picked up? Never mind if they changed anything.

This is common with these pre-made boxes, MANY are not what they're advertised for. At least with sealed it's less of a big deal. I picked up a ported box, spec'd at a 38hz tuning. Actual tuning, validated with testing, 57hz. Ridiculous difference! I subtracted port area with foam blocks to get it back to the tuning I wanted, which isn't my favorite method but it was for the commuter car so who really cares... fixed the rest of response with DSP.

I suggest you do the quick math with listed external dimensions, then derive internal volume based on expected internal dims given wall thickness and don't forget to subtract braces/dividers. If it's even close to what's spec'd, probably fine. If you end up shy half a cubic foot per driver... meh. What do you expect for the price (shipped!).

Don't get me started on TS parameters. Those spec'd by JBL are not what I tested. We have guys living and dying by model races made with averages/junk input. It's sealed, so all is generally forgiven, but I'm a test guy so I'd rather have no data than junk data. I do miss the days of believing spec sheets though, life was easier lol.

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post #2423 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 12:00 PM
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Here is close mic measurement of the JBL in a 1.3 ft3 vs a 1.5 ft3 box. Pretty much the same FR.

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post #2424 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 12:22 PM
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Us: "hey only 30dB down at 10Hz, we can work with that!" lol

Lines are on top of each other. I only note the difference at loud volumes. My 1.6 cuft go deeper before distress vs. my 1.2's -it's not subtle. Doesn't matter when you have a pile of them, but for the 4 in the computer room it was a big difference.

Edit: looking at that response curve... when you have a bunch of them, how incredibly sensitive are they in the midbass?!?! With enough you can get 110dB with a watt. Thermal compression? Ha!

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post #2425 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 12:56 PM
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How is it interesting? Pretty simple to take a tape measure, inside or outside, measure actual, multiply 'em, divide by 1728 and you get your volume, inner or outer. What ya bought isn't what ya got. They have tons of different versions, who is to say you're looking at the same thing I picked up? Never mind if they changed anything.


I suggest you do the quick math with listed external dimensions, then derive internal volume based on expected internal dims given wall thickness and don't forget to subtract braces/dividers. If it's even close to what's spec'd, probably fine. If you end up shy half a cubic foot per driver... meh. What do you expect for the price (shipped!).



Chris

Interesting because it's the specs on the website for the 4 hole box, and they give something different with what you guys come up with. Internal dimensions, minus the 3 braces/separations, gives about 6 ft exactly.

Does anyone know the internal volume of the sub? Maybe 0.1 cubic feet?

Based on those specs, for the current box, it's very close to 1.5, and not 1.2.

But, like you say, the website is probably wrong.
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post #2426 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 12:59 PM
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Don't get me started on TS parameters. Those spec'd by JBL are not what I tested. We have guys living and dying by model races made with averages/junk input. It's sealed, so all is generally forgiven, but I'm a test guy so I'd rather have no data than junk data. I do miss the days of believing spec sheets though, life was easier lol.

Chris
Did you post your measured parameters anywhere? I'm gonna measure mine as well, because a close-mic sweep turned out way lower than what modeling programs predicted.
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post #2427 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 01:17 PM
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Interesting because it's the specs on the website for the 4 hole box, and they give something different with what you guys come up with. Internal dimensions, minus the 3 braces/separations, gives about 6 ft exactly.

Does anyone know the internal volume of the sub? Maybe 0.1 cubic feet?

Based on those specs, for the current box, it's very close to 1.5, and not 1.2.

But, like you say, the website is probably wrong.
Ah, I don't know what the website states anymore. Remember, there are several. My confidence is because I do know what the actual measurements of the actual boxes that showed up are, and they aren't what I purchased. They still work. Just good to know. I'm done with these little carpeted disasters though, which is why I'm getting quotes for CNC work on the plans that are not finally properly done. Hey, if I'm going to have a lousy design it could at least be my own!
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post #2428 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 01:20 PM
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Did you post your measured parameters anywhere? I'm gonna measure mine as well, because a close-mic sweep turned out way lower than what modeling programs predicted.
I don't remember! I should pull a driver out and do some testing. For my purposes I don't really care any more; they're going into certain sized boxes, I'm going to equalize the friggin' snot out of them, and make 'em do what I want regardless of what they think they want.
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post #2429 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 01:24 PM
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Ah, I don't know what the website states anymore. Remember, there are several. My confidence is because I do know what the actual measurements of the actual boxes that showed up are, and they aren't what I purchased.
I'll probably order me 2 more JBLs next time they are on sale, then get one of these 4 hole boxes just to play around with.

But if it aint the size that the website says, I'm sending it back lol. I'm just morally opposed to 1.2 cubic feet lol
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post #2430 of 2441 Old 08-14-2019, 01:48 PM
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Us: "hey only 30dB down at 10Hz, we can work with that!" lol

Lines are on top of each other. I only note the difference at loud volumes. My 1.6 cuft go deeper before distress vs. my 1.2's -it's not subtle. Doesn't matter when you have a pile of them, but for the 4 in the computer room it was a big difference.

Edit: looking at that response curve... when you have a bunch of them, how incredibly sensitive are they in the midbass?!?! With enough you can get 110dB with a watt. Thermal compression? Ha!

I actually ended up with 1 ft3 pr driver. I have them in a nearfield placement and here is compression sweep with 12 of them, on one NU6K (6ohm pr channel).



Yup, they are sensitive, i have probably boosted them 8-10dB down low, and had to turn them down about ~30dB up top!!! to get that curve.

And since this is NF measured at MLP, there isn’t much room gain.
Chris Popovich likes this.

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