12" JBL speaker $29 on black friday at Bestbuy - Page 84 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #2491 of 2557 Old 09-10-2019, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
Hope you have some form of eq in the chain; these benefit from a boost at the low end.
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Hi,

I have a minidsp that I will use.

Thanks,

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post #2492 of 2557 Old 09-12-2019, 02:44 AM
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how many of these can i run with a single n3000d?
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post #2493 of 2557 Old 09-12-2019, 03:04 AM
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i think actually a better question would be, properly encased and powered with a single n3000d how would 4 of these compare to the 2 10" monoliths i currently have in my HT, is it apples to oranges? would they be able to play well together? are they best suited for NF duty? i have 4 unused i picked up a while ago just ordered a minidsp HD a umik and n3000d on the way and im sure HD has some mdf just waiting for me. how would these be best incorporated into my current build? my mains are from DIYSG htm-12's with volt 6 surrounds and c34e atmos.
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post #2494 of 2557 Old 09-13-2019, 08:48 AM
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In the spirit of cheap 12s, sonic has hifonics 12s for 55 a pair shipped right now

https://www.sonicelectronix.com/item...ubwoofers.html
Is this a pretty good sub to use for a BOSS platform? Looks decent.
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post #2495 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 10:39 AM
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how many of these can i run with a single n3000d?
I'm running 8 each on a pair of n3000ds. Each channel of each amp gets 4, wired together to present a 4 ohm load. It's mind boggling how much base I'm getting out of 16 of these. I don't have the amps turned up anywhere near max. It's more like at 2/3 max volume per channel.

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post #2496 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 10:55 AM
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Is this a pretty good sub to use for a BOSS platform? Looks decent.
xmax of 6.5mm is not a good spec. Might be good enough for a BOSS.
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post #2497 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 10:59 AM
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I'll shortly be building a second-row platform with 4x JBL drivers, sealed, and powered by a Yung 500w w/ 6db boost at 25hz. This is a low-budget build for my brother who would re-use his Dayton SUB1200 otherwise, so expectations are reasonable. Movie playback and high SPL also won't be the primary use... my guess is the room will be used at least 60% for sports/entertaining and 40% for family movie nights. Critical listening isn't really their style. Speakers will be 7x BIC Formula in-walls powered by an Onkyo NR-905. Display will be an Epson 3000 on ~135" painted wall screen. The room is large, roughly 5,600 ft^3 with carpet/pad on concrete and drop-ceiling.

I have a few modeling-related questions:

  • Assuming the boost will eat up a good bit of the 500w of power, what input power should I be using to model and check for cone excursion limits?

  • I think I'll have around 20 ft^3 of volume available in the platform. Should I use it all, or limit the sub cavity to somewhere around 8 ft^3? That seems to be the recommended airspace (2 ft^3 per driver) for managing cone excursion. 20 ft^3 models better for response but, depending on how much power is actually available excluding what the boost eats up, cone excursion looks like it could be a problem.

  • As has been recommended to be prior, should I just leave the bottom of the enclosure open to the carpet below it, or build it as a completely sealed enclosure? Does this change based on 8 ft^3 vs 20 ft^3? Is there any risk of "farting" if I leave the bottom open on plush carpet?

Thanks in advance!

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post #2498 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Hopkins View Post
Assuming the boost will eat up a good bit of the 500w of power, what input power should I be using to model and check for cone excursion limits?
Look at the Max SPL graph, it will account for excursion limits and power limits. Since that shows you max output, you can tailor the native response to any shape below that curve. The best way of visualizing it is look at the Max SPL graph and instead of visualizing boost on the low end, visualize cutting the top end, at the end of the day they are the same thing.

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I think I'll have around 20 ft^3 of volume available in the platform. Should I use it all, or limit the sub cavity to somewhere around 8 ft^3? That seems to be the recommended airspace (2 ft^3 per driver) for managing cone excursion. 20 ft^3 models better for response but, depending on how much power is actually available excluding what the boost eats up, cone excursion looks like it could be a problem.
It's a common misconception that one should reduce the size of an enclosure to "manage excursion" and/or to "increase power handling". Look at it this way, excursion=SPL, and if it takes less power to cause a given amount of excursion, that's just increased efficiency.
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post #2499 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 01:29 PM
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A smaller box can be chosen as a mechanical means of controlling excursion but remember it's always at the expense of efficiency and of course frequency response. These need a lot of boost way down low, anything you can do to decrease that will be helpful. I'd give a go to the full volume you have available. You can always use DSP down the line to trim your frequency response as needed if you're unhappy.

As far as "sealing" the bottom of the box, this is fairly important. If you don't... at best it'll act like a leaky sealed box. At worst you'll get weird noises and poor performance. Can you build the box such that the bottom is the last thing you'd add, and try it out first?

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post #2500 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 01:56 PM
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Can you build the box such that the bottom is the last thing you'd add, and try it out first?
That's the plan. It's going to be 2x10 sides and MDF or plywood top... so insetting an MDF/plywood bottom after the fact wouldn't be an issue except for possibly exceeding 4x8 panel sizes (equally problematic for the top which will be outset). The only reason I even considered leaving the bottom open is an earlier poster saying the pressure difference would be minimal and shouldn't cause any issue with that much internal volume (essentially operating IB... I guess?).

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post #2501 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 01:56 PM
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A smaller box can be chosen as a mechanical means of controlling excursion but remember it's always at the expense of efficiency and of course frequency response.
Sure, it can be done, I've just never seen the point of trying to mechanically control SPL (call it excursion but at the end of the day it's SPL) by reducing efficiency in this manner. Along with greater efficiency, the bigger box option also will have lower distortion. If there were a benefit to reducing volume, the IB guys would be doing themselves a disservice, but the opposite is true.

In Stephen's specific case, the 20cf option is a no-brainer not only for the reasons stated above, but with his plan to power the 4 JBLs with the 500W amp, the 20cf option gives an additional 3.5dB of output <20Hz, and excursion doesn't even hit the 15mm of usable excursion the JBLs have, so no HPF are necessary and there's no need to worry about excursion.

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post #2502 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 02:13 PM
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Sure, it can be done, I've just never seen the point of trying to mechanically control SPL (call it excursion but at the end of the day it's SPL) by reducing efficiency in this manner. Along with greater efficiency, the bigger box
option also will have lower distortion. If there were this supposed benefit to reducing volume, the IB guys would be doing themselves a disservice, but the opposite is true.
I think we've had a discussion about this before; I can explain it to you, but I can't understand why for you. IMO modern day DSP makes this all but irrelevant. If I had to garner a guess, I would assume it came from car audio guys complaining about bottoming out subs on bass heavy material; this would have been pre-DSP days, and a mechanical high pass would be the ticket in such a situation; trade off some of the lowest notes for a few more dB where most of their music (and SPL) content was. Not ideal, but it worked. IB is the opposite, but that's why people tend to use so much displacement capability -high excursion eats up what you got fairly easily.

Really no need to consider this method anymore IMO.

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post #2503 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 02:36 PM
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In Stephen's specific case, the 20cf option is a no-brainer not only for the reasons stated above, but with his plan to power the 4 JBLs with the 500W amp, the 20cf option gives an additional 3.5dB of output <20Hz, and excursion doesn't even hit the 15mm of usable excursion the JBLs have, so no HPF are necessary and there's no need to worry about excursion.
In 20 ft^3 sealed with 4 drivers, 500w power, and 6db of boost centered at 25hz and Q=2.0 I'm seeing excursion jump to 22.269mm at 24.32hz... is this a problem with how I've entered the T/S parameters (which does not pass WinISD integrity check), the filter (Parametric EQ), some other problem with my modeling, or how it would actually behave? Keep in mind, this amp has 6db of boost fixed at 25hz and cannot be changed. I'm not looking at having active DSP unless I just stumble across a used iNUKE somewhere along the way at which point I could indeed tweak as desired/needed.

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post #2504 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 03:27 PM
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These things are great but won't do 22mm clean, I'm not even sure they'll do 22mm dirty.
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post #2505 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 04:10 PM
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In 20 ft^3 sealed with 4 drivers, 500w power, and 6db of boost centered at 25hz and Q=2.0 I'm seeing excursion jump to 22.269mm at 24.32hz... is this a problem with how I've entered the T/S parameters (which does not pass WinISD integrity check), the filter (Parametric EQ), some other problem with my modeling, or how it would actually behave? Keep in mind, this amp has 6db of boost fixed at 25hz and cannot be changed. I'm not looking at having active DSP unless I just stumble across a used iNUKE somewhere along the way at which point I could indeed tweak as desired/needed.
If you enter 500W as power and then add the +6dB filter, you're quadrupling power at 25Hz, which the amp isn't even capable of. That's why you're seeing excursion go so crazy, but it's not actually possible.

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post #2506 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 04:15 PM
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Pretty good price right now on Amazon for $40:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0788X6JJ9...v_ov_lig_dp_it
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post #2507 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 04:16 PM
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Here's what the native response will actually look like with that 25Hz boost. Notice how the entire curve fits under the Max SPL curve below it:


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post #2508 of 2557 Old 09-20-2019, 04:32 PM
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Also, since you have 20cf to play with, I have to at least mention the possibility of going ported and gaining a ton of output/headroom. I quickly modeled a very low tune and it bests the sealed all the way down to 9Hz, as a possibility.

I'm not sure if you'd be able to use your amp as-is (does it have a HPF?) but the huge amount of additional output might make it worth it to you to get a MiniDSP or amp with DSP. We can easily change tune if desired, and in any case, with 20cf we can keep port velocity easily below 20 m/s with any desired tune.

Not trying to push ported on you, I just think it's worth strongly considering, that's all.


Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 09-20-2019 at 05:57 PM.
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post #2509 of 2557 Old 09-21-2019, 01:45 PM
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For sure ported looks a million times better. Even if you have a HPF in the amp, it may be a great way to get some free output. Most of us are using sealed, smaller boxes, a ton of drivers, lots of power and a ton of DSP. If you don't have a ton of drivers, you don't have DSP, you don't have that much power, and you DO have a bunch of volume, GO PORTED!!!!


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post #2510 of 2557 Old 09-21-2019, 05:54 PM
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Also, since you have 20cf to play with, I have to at least mention the possibility of going ported and gaining a ton of output/headroom. I quickly modeled a very low tune and it bests the sealed all the way down to 9Hz, as a possibility.
Just to make sure I'm reading this right -- that's 4x the "$29" drivers in this thread, yeah?

I understand the ~20cf, but what's the port length/size? (I'm probably blind -- apologies if it's in that image!)

Might have to make some sawdust one of these days, next time that driver is on sale... just starting to figure out what to do in a new shared-use space, but "as long as the box is 20cf" flexibility might make this one interesting!

Thanks!
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post #2511 of 2557 Old 09-21-2019, 07:16 PM
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Just to make sure I'm reading this right -- that's 4x the "$29" drivers in this thread, yeah?

I understand the ~20cf, but what's the port length/size? (I'm probably blind -- apologies if it's in that image!)

Might have to make some sawdust one of these days, next time that driver is on sale... just starting to figure out what to do in a new shared-use space, but "as long as the box is 20cf" flexibility might make this one interesting!

Thanks!
Yes, that's 4 of these cheap JBLs and roughly 1000W total

I don't remember exactly what the port size was and I didn't save the model, but it doesn't really matter, we can easily size the port(s) appropriately depending on your tuning goal. At 20cf a reasonable port velocity is achievable at essentially any tune, and making it happen is trivial. I'm sure that quick model had a large square port because that's where I start, but port shape can be whatever you want. If you want to pursue this further, let me know and I'll be happy to tailor something specific to your goals. It doesn't have to be 20cf either, that was just one good example.
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post #2512 of 2557 Old 09-21-2019, 07:48 PM
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Yes, that's 4 of these cheap JBLs and roughly 1000W total

I don't remember exactly what the port size was and I didn't save the model, but it doesn't really matter, we can easily size the port(s) appropriately depending on your tuning goal. At 20cf a reasonable port velocity is achievable at essentially any tune, and making it happen is trivial. I'm sure that quick model had a large square port because that's where I start, but port shape can be whatever you want. If you want to pursue this further, let me know and I'll be happy to tailor something specific to your goals. It doesn't have to be 20cf either, that was just one good example.
Thanks! I appreciate it. I'm kinda liking the idea of "four shockingly cheap drivers makes something magical" -- it's not as engineering-marvel-y as, say, tapped horns and their "small and/or cheap driver + space and complexity and effort = fun surprise" but I think the box flexibility could be really useful.

I have space under a foosball table I am eyeing right now that should get me in the neighborhood of 20ft^3... if I decide to go that way, I truly appreciate your offer to help -- this community is awesome!
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Ported? Heretics I say! (Where is that wink, wink, wink emoticon when you need it.)
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How does two dual 12" JBL subs in 1.5cf/sub (4 driver in total) compare to two Klipsch R-120SW? In sense of frequency response and SPL.
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Would these just not work well at all in a horn configuration? I'm kind of surprised, but maybe that's because I really don't know what's needed for a good horn speaker. I'll have room in my riser for ~20 cubes or more, if there's any benefit to it. Right now I think I'm leaning towards a BOSS setup of some kind, just to try it out.
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post #2516 of 2557 Old 09-23-2019, 04:06 PM
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Would these just not work well at all in a horn configuration? I'm kind of surprised, but maybe that's because I really don't know what's needed for a good horn speaker. I'll have room in my riser for ~20 cubes or more, if there's any benefit to it. Right now I think I'm leaning towards a BOSS setup of some kind, just to try it out.
Long ago, back when displacement and watts were expensive and building materials cheap smart people learned how to squeeze maximum output using innovative cabinet design. These days with decent $30 subs and dirt cheap high power digital amps building convoluted tapered horns isn’t necessary.
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post #2517 of 2557 Old 09-23-2019, 08:07 PM
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Would these just not work well at all in a horn configuration? I'm kind of surprised, but maybe that's because I really don't know what's needed for a good horn speaker. I'll have room in my riser for ~20 cubes or more, if there's any benefit to it. Right now I think I'm leaning towards a BOSS setup of some kind, just to try it out.
Check out the following post. In the very last set of graphs, he threw the JBL into the Lilwrecker, response and output per $ is still looking like a winner

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...&postcount=976
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post #2518 of 2557 Old 09-24-2019, 02:46 AM
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Originally Posted by notfastenough View Post
Check out the following post. In the very last set of graphs, he threw the JBL into the Lilwrecker, response and output per $ is still looking like a winner



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-d...&postcount=976
Yessss! That's what I was looking for. Don't know how I haven't seen it before, thanks!

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post #2519 of 2557 Old 09-25-2019, 09:20 AM
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I've thought about ported, but it would add some complexity to the box (since it has to be carpeted and port length would dictate they be outward-facing and visible instead of upward under the couch) and the Yung amp does lack an HPF. As long as the driver/amp combo will work as modeled with minimal risk of bottoming, I'm pretty sure my brother will be perfectly happy with the output as modeled... actually he'll probably be indifferent since the vast majority of the usage will be college football and basketball, but at least I won't feel like I did his otherwise decent theater a disservice by letting him reuse the old Dayton SUB1200.

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post #2520 of 2557 Old 09-25-2019, 11:40 AM
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I've thought about ported, but it would add some complexity to the box (since it has to be carpeted and port length would dictate they be outward-facing and visible instead of upward under the couch) and the Yung amp does lack an HPF.
Just so you know, port length doesn't actually dictate that the ports can't be upfiring under the couch, we could do that easily. The other reasons not to do ported may be enough to stop you, but don't let port location stop you, they can be where ever you want them to be.

Take the Red Pill (BassEQ) BassEQ Demo Clips
Video: Sony 85" X900F @ 80" eyes-to-screen (49.4° viewing angle)
Audio: Denon AVR-X4400H 7.2.4 Atmos
Mains: Fusion-15 LR, Custom Tapered Ported Volt-6 Center, Ported Volt-10 Surrounds, Custom 45°/45° Double-Angled Ported Volt-6 Atmos
Subs: The Two Towers (HT18 32cf 11.5Hz x 2), UM18 4cf x 2, Crowson MAs x 4

Last edited by aron7awol; 09-25-2019 at 11:47 AM.
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