HST-18/PA-460 to Dual BMS18n862??? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 07:14 AM - Thread Starter
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HST-18/PA-460 to Dual BMS18n862???

Currently running an HST-18 and a PA460 each in a 4ft^3 sealed box driven by an Inuke 6kdsp. The single HST gives me right around reference level output at 20 Hz(114 dB sine wave, 117dB burst), and the 460 gives me a drastically improved top end(mid-upper bass) when crossed at 120Hz with my 6.5" bookshelf speakers.

I've considered an amp upgrade to get a couple more dB out of the HST, but I fear the bang for the buck would be pretty darn low considering the 460 hits pretty damn hard up high by itself.

Since I am around reference level down low from the single HST-18, I've been considering selling the HST and 460 and getting matching dual BMS 18n862 drivers. Cost would be around $1450 new for both drivers shipped. From what I can tell the Inuke should drive them close to max output down low since data-bass used 89v for max long term output, and combined with their high sensitivity, they should really shine up top.

Looking for what I hope will be the best all around dual purpose HT/music setup. I am making an assumption that the dual BMS drivers will match or exceed the single HST down low, while giving similar overall performance to something like Funk's FW18 on a budget.

After selling my HST, this should cost less than $1k. I like the idea of having high sensitivity subs to supplement my small bookshelf speakers while getting above reference level output down low in my room(to 10Hz or lower with room gain)

Thoughts? Modeling?
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post #2 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 08:25 AM
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What is lacking in your current setup?

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post #3 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 08:34 AM
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I'd try a large ported cab for the HST. Then get another 460. Put the two 460s in your 4ft3 sealed cabs, and the HST in something big.
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post #4 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 09:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
What is lacking in your current setup?

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Well the HST/460 combo performs very well together. But as a hobbyist, I can't help wondering if dual matching 18n862's just wouldn't perform better overall. Perhaps a couple more dB headroom down low. More capability above 40Hz with lower distortion. More even output across the entire frequency range from both subs in their differing locations.

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post #5 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Samps View Post
I'd try a large ported cab for the HST. Then get another 460. Put the two 460s in your 4ft3 sealed cabs, and the HST in something big.
Didn't mention this is in my 2500ft^3 main living room. Large ported is not an option. I believe I would have above reference capability(close to 120 dB) to below 10 Hz given my current capability with the single HST and the comparative results on data-bass between the two drivers.

In a bigger or dedicated room I would probably go this route.
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post #6 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 09:28 AM
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+1 on porting the HST-18.

Looks like you have a $1k budget. Buy another HST-18 and PA460 and port the HST-18s into the mid teens - full marty size.

You're going to loose a couple hundred on the resell of the HST-18, so you might as well work with it. LLT porting is going to give so much more output than sealed. You will probably see around 15-20dB increase in lower LFE going from a single sealed HST-18 to dual LLT HST-18s. All for about $1k. Use your current sealed cab for the 2nd PA460.
You might think you will loose output below tune, but it will still be more than a single sealed sub. The only difference is driver excursion. Depending on the amp you buy, you could easily get away with a 10-12hz LPF and not worry about exceeding xmax/xmech.

Theres hardly any content below 10hz anyway, and even the content below 10hz, isn't going to be played with huge authority (output) from a single under-amped sealed HST-18.

@eng-399
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ask @MKtheater about how his transition from sealed to LLT has gone.

EDIT: I suppose throw away this post since I just read yours - I guess
If you want more 40hz output with less distortion, port the PS460s and tune around 30-35hz and apply a HPF with a DSP amp or miniDSP. Don't use a LPF on the HST-18s.

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post #7 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 10:53 AM
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Don't do it. You'll lose 12db below 25hz by removing the HST.

What you should do is:
1) Port two HST-18's with the existing 6kdsp (14-20db's)
2) and then buy a 3kDSP and power 4 460's with it dual-opposed to save on space. (6-12db's)

Or better yet
2) Buy another 6kdsp and two BMS's to add to the ported HST's, and throw the 460's in the garbage. (moar deebeez!)
Depending on future budget and future desires.

-Never enough bass.
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post #8 of 18 Old 12-10-2017, 11:05 AM
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Generally though:
the more cone-area and the more coil-area = the better

Because:
To displace lots of air requires lots of cone area x excursion (i.e. loudness.)
and to make it move, you need more coil/magnets.

That is why people have 32 subwoofers instead of 1.
Watts are merely are there to push them. (Note: More watts = More heat.)

more coil = more metal
more metal = better cooling
more metal = handles more watts
Instead of 1 x 1kW, 32 x 32kW (i.e. a hell of a lot LOUDER!)
It's just a matter of space and budget...

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post #9 of 18 Old 12-11-2017, 04:53 AM
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the sensitivity on the 18n862 isn't quite as high as on the PA460 and the impedance peak in a similar sized cab would be lower, so that may impact where compression occurs. that said, 2 > 1. :-)


one advantage of dual 18n862 may be the flexibility to place them near the mains in a way that allows for an even higher crossover point, perhaps 150hz, which would give more overall headroom if you listen loud and the locations work for overall bass response.


given what you have, I'd probably be inclined to 'add to' instead of 'replace'. adding *3* more PA460's and then configuring the system to run them full range would probably be the lowest cost upgrade. that could allow for a pair (or perhaps all four) to take over mains duty from the highest crossover point that your system will allow, while at the same time increasing your low end capability by about 6db at 30hz and a little less under that (with more sources overall response could be better too).

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post #10 of 18 Old 12-11-2017, 05:09 AM
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post #11 of 18 Old 12-11-2017, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the sensitivity on the 18n862 isn't quite as high as on the PA460 and the impedance peak in a similar sized cab would be lower, so that may impact where compression occurs. that said, 2 > 1. :-)


one advantage of dual 18n862 may be the flexibility to place them near the mains in a way that allows for an even higher crossover point, perhaps 150hz, which would give more overall headroom if you listen loud and the locations work for overall bass response.


given what you have, I'd probably be inclined to 'add to' instead of 'replace'. adding *3* more PA460's and then configuring the system to run them full range would probably be the lowest cost upgrade. that could allow for a pair (or perhaps all four) to take over mains duty from the highest crossover point that your system will allow, while at the same time increasing your low end capability by about 6db at 30hz and a little less under that (with more sources overall response could be better too).


Due to space constraints of my main living room space, adding 3 is not feasible. But adding one to make a dual opposed PA460 in the same size box would certainly be a dirt cheap option.


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post #12 of 18 Old 12-11-2017, 02:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Have you thought about using the B&C DS or SW drivers.


I’ll take a look at them. I was very impressed with the 18n862 performance as a “one sub to do it all” solution.


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post #13 of 18 Old 12-11-2017, 02:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Wait. How about we get really crazy and just build a 22” cube with a PA460 on all four sides!


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post #14 of 18 Old 12-11-2017, 03:29 PM
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Wait. He about we get really crazy and just build a 22” cube with a PA460 on all four sides!🤪


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I don’t I’ve seen that before try it out. Four PA460’s would be fun!
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post #15 of 18 Old 12-12-2017, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Wait. How about we get really crazy and just build a 22” cube with a PA460 on all four sides!


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Lol I'm building one of those right now for mbm
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post #16 of 18 Old 12-13-2017, 02:47 AM
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Porting that hst will get you 10-12db of output down low.
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post #17 of 18 Old 12-13-2017, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bear123 View Post
Wait. How about we get really crazy and just build a 22” cube with a PA460 on all four sides!
Usually it is better to have multiples spread throughout the room.
Incoherent sources are 3db quieter, but also a lot smoother response. At least... in theory.
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post #18 of 18 Old 12-13-2017, 07:33 AM
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It seems like you're pretty happy with the current setup, you just want to get more out of it. So my vote would be to add to it, rather than to bring in an unknown quantity with a totally different driver. I don't have WinISD on this computer at work, but would it be feasible to slightly increase the size of the HST cab and port it, and then just add another 460 to the sealed cab it comes out of? If you can come up with a design that works without going full LLT and using a massive box, then all you'd need to buy is a 460, an amp for it (nu3000?), and the MDF for the ported enclosure.

IIRC the problem with making a smallish ported cab is getting the port size/velocity/tune optimized, but I'm sure someone could help with that.
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