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post #31 of 86 Old 12-19-2017, 12:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
As I recall the top 2/3rds of the 7 Pi XO should allow you to save an amp channel.

Send me PM on the drivers, they are brand new and never hooked up. I am missing on of the boxes as I used it to send my JBL 2012H driver for re-coning and they returned it in a B&C box.
Thanks man, PM'ed
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post #32 of 86 Old 12-20-2017, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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So here's my vision of what I want to do. I'm going to make it modular so it's manageable to move etc. Going to use a JBL 2453H-SL for the HF in it's own enclosure and 4 of those B&C 15 drivers above and below the waveguide in horizontal configuration, spaced as closely as possible together. I'd like to cross the woofers to the 2453H-SL as low as possible so around 750hz or less to avoid any issues with lobing/comb filtering etc. The woofers will be put in pairs in ~8cuft enclosures tuned around 45hz or so or I might go sealed. The LF will be ~104db/watt so won't need to pad the HF too much....I will going active for this since I have amps already, but may end up getting some kind of outboard eq such as a dbx venu360. I've also attached the spec sheet on the B&C drivers. Any critiques to my design? I think this should work but does anyone see any potential problems?
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post #33 of 86 Old 12-20-2017, 02:36 PM
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How does that configuration compare with vertical woofers, like a 4722 wwtww?
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post #34 of 86 Old 12-20-2017, 04:36 PM - Thread Starter
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How does that configuration compare with vertical woofers, like a 4722 wwtww?
I think in that configuration the very top and very bottom woofers can cause cancellations since they are so far from the hf section unless that is managed in the Crossover properly by doing a 2.5 way... Or perhaps some other way? My proposed configuration keeps the woofers closer to the hf than the wavelength of the Crossover frequency. Not sure how jbl gets around that with the 4722...im sure someone more intelligent in the audio realm than me knows lol @tuxedocivic @mtg90

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post #35 of 86 Old 12-20-2017, 05:59 PM
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They get away with it by just living with it and the fact that the intended LP is much further than a typical HT distance.

Also, the side by side woofers cause just as much trouble just different.

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post #36 of 86 Old 12-20-2017, 10:17 PM
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The more I think about this the more I think the 615 would suit your needs. Why reinvent the wheel. Dual 15s are awesome though...

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post #37 of 86 Old 12-20-2017, 10:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
So here's my vision of what I want to do. I'm going to make it modular so it's manageable to move etc. Going to use a JBL 2453H-SL for the HF in it's own enclosure and 4 of those B&C 15 drivers above and below the waveguide in horizontal configuration, spaced as closely as possible together. I'd like to cross the woofers to the 2453H-SL as low as possible so around 750hz or less to avoid any issues with lobing/comb filtering etc. The woofers will be put in pairs in ~8cuft enclosures tuned around 45hz or so or I might go sealed. The LF will be ~104db/watt so won't need to pad the HF too much....I will going active for this since I have amps already, but may end up getting some kind of outboard eq such as a dbx venu360. I've also attached the spec sheet on the B&C drivers. Any critiques to my design? I think this should work but does anyone see any potential problems?
You'll still need to pad the top about 10db or so. That said, I wouldn't put those 15's horizontally. Do an MTM if you want, or just copy the 4722 style setup if you have the distance for integration.
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post #38 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 04:31 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
They get away with it by just living with it and the fact that the intended LP is much further than a typical HT distance.

Also, the side by side woofers cause just as much trouble just different.

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Thanks for the input Tux; I thought as long as you keep the side by side woofers playing as low as possible you can avoid issues such as with Jeff Bagby's Cinema 88....or does that work since the driver size is much smaller? I believe the side by side mids limits vertical dispersion right? Wouldn't that be a good thing to eliminate ceiling/floor bounce? I'm not set on this particular design, I'm just trying to learn....

I'm also not against just going with the Titan, I just want an MTM with at least two 15s....maybe I could buy those, try to convince Erich to sell me 3 more of the Magnum 15s and then run the bottom of the design actively lol. Or maybe the existing crossover could be modded. I think this exemplifies the title of my thread
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post #39 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 04:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
You'll still need to pad the top about 10db or so. That said, I wouldn't put those 15's horizontally. Do an MTM if you want, or just copy the 4722 style setup if you have the distance for integration.
Thanks Not, the consensus seems to not go with horizontal mids, so if I go this route I'll do single driver MTM, thanks. I was looking through your builds and saw you used an autoformer to pad the CD...I take it that went a long way to squash the noise from going active? Or do you think your interface and Ncore amps were a bigger contributor to keeping things silent? I have crown DSI amps and XLS series amps and I know they aren't the quietest in the world.
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post #40 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Thanks Not, the consensus seems to not go with horizontal mids, so if I go this route I'll do single driver MTM, thanks. I was looking through your builds and saw you used an autoformer to pad the CD...I take it that went a long way to squash the noise from going active? Or do you think your interface and Ncore amps were a bigger contributor to keeping things silent? I have crown DSI amps and XLS series amps and I know they aren't the quietest in the world.
The ncore amps connected directly to the cds with hot and cold shorted are silent, which is amazing. That said, they still have 26db of gain, so there was some hiss when a source got hooked up. The autoformer does great for padding that down. You could use an lpad, but this is more efficient and easier to change padding levels. It's a necessity imo. The RME interface I'm using is also really quiet. I went through a bunch finding one that was good.
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post #41 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 06:43 AM
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Horizontal mids/woofers limit horizontal dispersion, but it can be erratic and that's a problem in the horizontal direction. MTM limits dispersion vertically which is a good thing, unless it's too much and you end up sitting in nulls or big nulls are in the reflected response. The 88, 1099, 1299 etc. All have closer spacing between the woofers and still were complicated to get right. Dual 15s at 750hz would not be a good thing. Vertically we're not as sensitive to this challenge.

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post #42 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 08:05 AM
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Stuck in Analysis Paralysis

Tux Is there a practical design for a horn loaded woofer with a rectangular mouth that would help maintain directivity and avoid some of these issues?
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post #43 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 08:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
The ncore amps connected directly to the cds with hot and cold shorted are silent, which is amazing. That said, they still have 26db of gain, so there was some hiss when a source got hooked up. The autoformer does great for padding that down. You could use an lpad, but this is more efficient and easier to change padding levels. It's a necessity imo. The RME interface I'm using is also really quiet. I went through a bunch finding one that was good.
Cool, thanks, always wanted to try those ncore amps but they are pricey; always something for an upgrade though

Should I get the 3636 autotransformer? Looks like it has the most taps....otherwise it's the same as their newer transformer the 3654? I also need a big Cap for the compression driver for protection.....100uf big enough or too big? I'm having trouble finding information regarding the lowest crossover point the 2453H-SL can support on the 2384 horn; since the 2453H is beefier than the 2432, can it be crossed lower? Looks like JBL specs 630hz for the 4722N, but I think the actual dsp settings in the crown amps specify crossing somewhere in the 700s. Thanks for the help!
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post #44 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Cool, thanks, always wanted to try those ncore amps but they are pricey; always something for an upgrade though

Should I get the 3636 autotransformer? Looks like it has the most taps....otherwise it's the same as their newer transformer the 3654? I also need a big Cap for the compression driver for protection.....100uf big enough or too big? I'm having trouble finding information regarding the lowest crossover point the 2453H-SL can support on the 2384 horn; since the 2453H is beefier than the 2432, can it be crossed lower? Looks like JBL specs 630hz for the 4722N, but I think the actual dsp settings in the crown amps specify crossing somewhere in the 700s. Thanks for the help!
Either will work. I'm using 100uf with 3636
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post #45 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 09:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Horizontal mids/woofers limit horizontal dispersion, but it can be erratic and that's a problem in the horizontal direction. MTM limits dispersion vertically which is a good thing, unless it's too much and you end up sitting in nulls or big nulls are in the reflected response. The 88, 1099, 1299 etc. All have closer spacing between the woofers and still were complicated to get right. Dual 15s at 750hz would not be a good thing. Vertically we're not as sensitive to this challenge.

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Is that why I see some designs with horizontal 15s arranged on an angle inwards to get their cone centre's closer together... How low would you need to cross approximately to avoid issues? Probably need to go with a three way?

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post #46 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 09:56 AM
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The angling helps with this, bexcuse C2C spacing is lower and because of the beaming of the woofers. It makes for a very narrow listening window though. And requires a few test boxes to get everything right.

I'd suggest crossing around 450hz for dual 15s next to each other. A little higher might be ok and of course lower is fine. I used an Iwata 300 over a pair of JBL2226 like that and the XO was 650. It was ok but extremely directional. 100hz is a big difference in terms of not just the wavelength but also our hearing sensitivity. I still prefered that speaker with the woofers stacked vertically. Maybe some of it was psychological I don't know, but I preferred it that way.

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post #47 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 03:58 PM
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Cool, thanks, always wanted to try those ncore amps but they are pricey; always something for an upgrade though

Should I get the 3636 autotransformer? Looks like it has the most taps....otherwise it's the same as their newer transformer the 3654? I also need a big Cap for the compression driver for protection.....100uf big enough or too big? I'm having trouble finding information regarding the lowest crossover point the 2453H-SL can support on the 2384 horn; since the 2453H is beefier than the 2432, can it be crossed lower? Looks like JBL specs 630hz for the 4722N, but I think the actual dsp settings in the crown amps specify crossing somewhere in the 700s. Thanks for the help!
I have no experience with the JBL compression driver, but I can shed a bit of light on their suggested crossover points. Keep in mind their primary use is in the professional venue, so the crossover is typically higher, to get the most output out from the compression driver and keep out of the 'danger' zone when driven hard.

For the typical ( possibly atypical ) home user of said equipment, the x-over can be lowered if power is kept in check. If you want typical dance club levels at home, and like to crank it up to 11 with alcohol involved, you may want to keep a higher crossover point.

Every octave lower, diaphragm excursion will increase 4 x, for the same sound pressure level. 500-550 hz should be a safe bet, but you may want to do some testing with low level signals, slowly increasing the gain while watching for nasty behavior from the compression driver.

The 3636 autoformer would be my choice over a resistor pad for reducing the output of the compression driver.
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post #48 of 86 Old 12-21-2017, 04:48 PM - Thread Starter
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I have no experience with the JBL compression driver, but I can shed a bit of light on their suggested crossover points. Keep in mind their primary use is in the professional venue, so the crossover is typically higher, to get the most output out from the compression driver and keep out of the 'danger' zone when driven hard.

For the typical ( possibly atypical ) home user of said equipment, the x-over can be lowered if power is kept in check. If you want typical dance club levels at home, and like to crank it up to 11 with alcohol involved, you may want to keep a higher crossover point.

Every octave lower, diaphragm excursion will increase 4 x, for the same sound pressure level. 500-550 hz should be a safe bet, but you may want to do some testing with low level signals, slowly increasing the gain while watching for nasty behavior from the compression driver.

The 3636 autoformer would be my choice over a resistor pad for reducing the output of the compression driver.
Cool, thanks man, I imagined in a home environment the crossover recommendations could be relaxed. I guess when I get the components in my hands I can see what sounds best.

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post #49 of 86 Old 12-23-2017, 02:36 PM - Thread Starter
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DBX venu360 inbound and trio of 2453h-sl drivers to follow. Is there a recommended place to get the 2384 horns? Reconingspeakers.com wants $90 to ship them to MI; fullcompass looks they will ship for free but don't like my Canadian billing address lol... At any rate, I'm pretty pumped this is coming together... I'll create a build thread once I get things together.

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post #50 of 86 Old 12-24-2017, 10:15 AM
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DBX venu360 inbound and trio of 2453h-sl drivers to follow. Is there a recommended place to get the 2384 horns? Reconingspeakers.com wants $90 to ship them to MI; fullcompass looks they will ship for free but don't like my Canadian billing address lol... At any rate, I'm pretty pumped this is coming together... I'll create a build thread once I get things together.

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Try socalcinetech. I just received some SL diaphragms at a really good price...I actually thought it was a misprint at first.

Looking forward to your build, I upgraded from some cheap thrills to 4722n/2453SL and it was a really nice improvement, gotta love the big JBL sound. You going 2 or 3 way? In the future I would like to add the midhorn from the 3730 which uses the 195h (supposedly a rebadged eminence, the one used in the titan if I'm not mistaken), this would allow the side by side 15's.
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post #51 of 86 Old 12-24-2017, 04:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Try socalcinetech. I just received some SL diaphragms at a really good price...I actually thought it was a misprint at first.

Looking forward to your build, I upgraded from some cheap thrills to 4722n/2453SL and it was a really nice improvement, gotta love the big JBL sound. You going 2 or 3 way? In the future I would like to add the midhorn from the 3730 which uses the 195h (supposedly a rebadged eminence, the one used in the titan if I'm not mistaken), this would allow the side by side 15's.
Thanks man I'll check them out.

Cool, glad to hear that you were in a similar situation. I'm planning on keeping it a 2 way at first but was thinking about doing a three way maybe in the future with the Wayne Parnham mid horn but that 3730 mid horn looks promising too. I'll see how the two way goes and go from there.

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post #52 of 86 Old 12-29-2017, 08:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Look what Santa brought.... These look really nice, especially for $99 cdn each! I'll play with them some more after work. I also need to pick up my 2453h-sl drivers and the venu360 in the next little while. Bought some 2384 horns from Fullcompass...but doesn't look like they have shipped yet... Anyone know if they get drop shipped from JBL directly?

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post #53 of 86 Old 01-01-2018, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh man, long and McQuade made the drivers unavailable on their website now... Wonder if someone bought the rest of them (there was 85 left after I bought 6) or they pulled them because they were losing money on them? They look just like a slightly modified version of the b&c 15hpl76 which are $260 drivers. I was going to buy a spare or two just in case.... Crap.

I should have most of my other parts in hand tomorrow... Still waiting on horns though.

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post #54 of 86 Old 01-01-2018, 04:11 PM
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Oh man, long and McQuade made the drivers unavailable on their website now... Wonder if someone bought the rest of them (there was 85 left after I bought 6) or they pulled them because they were losing money on them? They look just like a slightly modified version of the b&c 15hpl76 which are $260 drivers. I was going to buy a spare or two just in case.... Crap.

I should have most of my other parts in hand tomorrow... Still waiting on horns though.

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I saw they were no longer available. Even if replacement drivers are no longer available from B&C, you may still be able to get re-cone kits, although I would want to check on that, it is possible that end of line support will be terminated at some point in the future.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, implusivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #55 of 86 Old 01-01-2018, 04:47 PM - Thread Starter
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I saw they were no longer available. Even if replacement drivers are no longer available from B&C, you may still be able to get re-cone kits, although I would want to check on that, it is possible that end of line support will be terminated at some point in the future.
I think I might contact them and see if I can buy another one just in case. It would suck to need a replacement. I saw a recone kit, but it was almost the same cost as the new driver.

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post #56 of 86 Old 01-03-2018, 10:37 AM
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post #57 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 05:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks man... They ended up having a bunch still. I think they were doing inventory or something and put them out of stock temporarily

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post #58 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, got all my parts aside from some longer set screws... These wave guides are ginormous lol. Going to be awesome! Here are some pics with the obligatory beer for scale:


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post #59 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 05:56 PM - Thread Starter
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The speaker on the wall is a cinema 88 surround speaker with what I once thought was a big wave guide (seos15). I know this is far from ideal, but I had a Dayton PA460 in a ported box already I can play with and cross to for fun and see what a big cd on a big wave guide sounds like

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post #60 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 06:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow... Even my hastily kludged together configuration sounds pretty nice using the simple crossover in a crown xls1500 amp. The coverage pattern of the 2384 is huge! I have fairly young kids so I can't crank it, but there is so much detail coming from that cd on that massive wave guide even at the low levels I'm listening at. I should have done this a long time ago. Thanks for all the research on these components @notnyt

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