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post #61 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 06:57 PM
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Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Wow... Even my hastily kludged together configuration sounds pretty nice using the simple crossover in a crown xls1500 amp. The coverage pattern of the 2384 is huge! I have fairly young kids so I can't crank it, but there is so much detail coming from that cd on that massive wave guide even at the low levels I'm listening at. I should have done this a long time ago. Thanks for all the research on these components @notnyt

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That's the 2453h-sl you have on there? The 2384 is about a 90x50 horn, but it'll provide pattern control down to at least 800hz
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post #62 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
That's the 2453h-sl you have on there? The 2384 is about a 90x50 horn, but it'll provide pattern control down to at least 800hz
Yep, I luckily found someone looking to get rid of some NIB spares, so I saved a little off of retail. How low are you crossing your 2452-be's in your L&R? I was hoping to cross around 600-650. Right now I have it crossed at 630 to a PA460 lol... I'm sure it's response rolls off pretty early before there because of inductance

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post #63 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Yep, I luckily found someone looking to get rid of some NIB spares, so I saved a little off of retail. How low are you crossing your 2452-be's in your L&R? I was hoping to cross around 600-650. Right now I have it crossed at 630 to a PA460 lol... I'm sure it's response rolls off pretty early before there because of inductance

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Right now 800 across the board. I may play with it at some point, but the original idea was to match the lcr that way, as the center has a much smaller waveguide.

Did you use a spacer?
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post #64 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 07:20 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Right now 800 across the board. I may play with it at some point, but the original idea was to match the lcr that way, as the center has a much smaller waveguide.

Did you use a spacer?
Cool, that makes a lot of sense. I imagine I'll play around with the crossover a lot to see what sounds and measures best.

No, not yet... I bought 1inch set screws, but I think they will be a little short once I add the spacer... Waiting on some inch and a half ones that I had to special order locally.

When you built the spacers, is the wave guide exit just a straight hole, no round over etc?



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post #65 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Cool, that makes a lot of sense. I imagine I'll play around with the crossover a lot to see what sounds and measures best.

No, not yet... I bought 1inch set screws, but I think they will be a little short once I add the spacer... Waiting on some inch and a half ones that I had to special order locally.

When you built the spacers, is the wave guide exit just a straight hole, no round over etc?

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perfectly flat, basic cylinder shape.
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post #66 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
perfectly flat, basic cylinder shape.
Great, thanks... Hopefully I'll have the longer set screws tomorrow. I'll use a forstner bit on my drill press then.

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post #67 of 86 Old 01-11-2018, 07:32 PM
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Great, thanks... Hopefully I'll have the longer set screws tomorrow. I'll use a forstner bit on my drill press then.

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Sweet, looking forward to seeing some measurements.
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post #68 of 86 Old 01-12-2018, 08:40 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Sweet, looking forward to seeing some measurements.
Hope to have some preliminary ones this weekend depending on how busy things are with the family. Also, trying to figure out how the auto transformer and cap need to be wired up. I took this picture of my crappy drawing... Does this look right for 12db attenuation?



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post #69 of 86 Old 01-12-2018, 09:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Also looks like there is varnish on the connectors from when they dipped the transformers... I'm assuming I should be scraping that off to get a decent electrical contact?

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post #70 of 86 Old 01-12-2018, 09:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Also looks like there is varnish on the connectors from when they dipped the transformers... I'm assuming I should be scraping that off to get a decent electrical contact?

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If utilizing fast-on terminals, there is no need to scrape, the simple action of pushing them on will do the job.

In your diagram, I would put the cap between the autoformer and the compression driver, this will ensure that the 100uF cap value does not change through the autoformer.
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post #71 of 86 Old 01-12-2018, 09:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
If utilizing fast-on terminals, there is no need to scrape, the simple action of pushing them on will do the job.

In your diagram, I would put the cap between the autoformer and the compression driver, this will ensure that the 100uF cap value does not change through the autoformer.
Cool thanks man.

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post #72 of 86 Old 01-12-2018, 11:29 AM
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I think that might be flux. Your wiring diagram looks fine.

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post #73 of 86 Old 01-15-2018, 01:39 AM
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Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Yep, I luckily found someone looking to get rid of some NIB spares, so I saved a little off of retail. How low are you crossing your 2452-be's in your L&R? I was hoping to cross around 600-650. Right now I have it crossed at 630 to a PA460 lol... I'm sure it's response rolls off pretty early before there because of inductance

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Just loaded up some 650hz vs 800hz xover changes into the a/b setup, don't think I can tell the difference, but will test more when I'm fresh and update my active front stage thread.
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post #74 of 86 Old 01-15-2018, 04:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Just loaded up some 650hz vs 800hz xover changes into the a/b setup, don't think I can tell the difference, but will test more when I'm fresh and update my active front stage thread.
Good to know... My aim to cross as low as possible is to minimize lobing and comb filtering due to driver spacing, but perhaps that isn't as a big of a deal the further out you are from the speakers? My lp is about 10ft from the center channel so it might be more noticeable to me? How far is your lp from the closest 4722? I'll try to play around with the crossover some more... I'll put the venu360 to use soon. Don't have a ton of time right now because I'm in the middle of building an entrance way bench for my wife and she doesn't appreciate the time I spend on the shiny new toys while that project isn't done lol. I did put the auto transformer to use though.... It really cuts down on the hiss, I was pleasantly surprised... Once I get these guys behind my screen and 10ft back it should be a non issue even using crown xls amps with my current noise floor in my ht.

I'll be following along on your thread to see your findings... Thanks for doing that.

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post #75 of 86 Old 01-15-2018, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by joebuddyguy View Post
Good to know... My aim to cross as low as possible is to minimize lobing and comb filtering due to driver spacing, but perhaps that isn't as a big of a deal the further out you are from the speakers? My lp is about 10ft from the center channel so it might be more noticeable to me? How far is your lp from the closest 4722? I'll try to play around with the crossover some more... I'll put the venu360 to use soon. Don't have a ton of time right now because I'm in the middle of building an entrance way bench for my wife and she doesn't appreciate the time I spend on the shiny new toys while that project isn't done lol. I did put the auto transformer to use though.... It really cuts down on the hiss, I was pleasantly surprised... Once I get these guys behind my screen and 10ft back it should be a non issue even using crown xls amps with my current noise floor in my ht.

I'll be following along on your thread to see your findings... Thanks for doing that.

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about 12.5 feet
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post #76 of 86 Old 01-16-2018, 07:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Managed to take some measurements. These are with no EQ other than the crossover provided by the crown XLS1500, no spacer on the CD and using a PA460 as the bottom end, so not optimal whatsoever. The crown can't do delay so there is some cancellation at the crossover that can't be helped. I did two different crosses, one at 750 (magenta) which has a big cancellation and one at 630 (blue) which looks better. Waiting on some XLR cables to put the dbx venu in the mix. Not sure what the big bump near 150hz is all about. I have the setup pretty close to a wall outside my screen which is probably contributing to that.
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post #77 of 86 Old 01-16-2018, 07:17 PM
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Managed to take some measurements. These are with no EQ other than the crossover provided by the crown XLS1500, no spacer on the CD and using a PA460 as the bottom end, so not optimal whatsoever. The crown can't do delay so there is some cancellation at the crossover that can't be helped. I did two different crosses, one at 750 (magenta) which has a big cancellation and one at 630 (blue) which looks better. Waiting on some XLR cables to put the dbx venu in the mix. Not sure what the big bump near 150hz is all about. I have the setup pretty close to a wall outside my screen which is probably contributing to that.
That definitely needs some EQ to flatten out the response. You got measurements, just need some filters
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post #78 of 86 Old 01-16-2018, 07:29 PM - Thread Starter
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That definitely needs some EQ to flatten out the response. You got measurements, just need some filters
Oh yeah for sure lol. I have no plans on using the PA460 for the bottom end so using proper woofers should help alot and then being able to apply some delay and eq I should be in good shape.

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post #79 of 86 Old 01-17-2018, 07:11 AM
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Oh yeah for sure lol. I have no plans on using the PA460 for the bottom end so using proper woofers should help alot and then being able to apply some delay and eq I should be in good shape.

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Did you hook up the tweeter in reverse polarity? JBL's older ones had forward diaphragm movement when positive voltage was applied to the black terminals.

I found this .PDF in a quick search but does not list that driver. Maybe a better search will yield a new list with that compression driver.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n12b.pdf

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post #80 of 86 Old 01-17-2018, 07:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Did you hook up the tweeter in reverse polarity? JBL's older ones had forward diaphragm movement when positive voltage was applied to the black terminals.

I found this .PDF in a quick search but does not list that driver. Maybe a better search will yield a new list with that compression driver.

http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/tn_v1n12b.pdf
These ones are actually labeled + and - right on the terminals so I would hope they are accurate in that regard, lol. I wired positive to positive, etc when wiring them up to my amp. I wonder if they are flipped on the passive xover.
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post #81 of 86 Old 02-15-2018, 05:29 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm getting closer to finishing up the project I have in front of this one so I'm getting excited to start. Lately I have been playing around with the venu360 and getting used to it. It's a nice piece of gear for sure... Being able to make adjustments to eq from my couch on my laptop or using my phone/tablet is super convenient. I sold my pa460 I was using for the lf temporarily so now I am using a 21 inch celestion driver I was using as a sub ported to 25hz below the hf section. It works surprisingly well as a big mid/woofer. I also need to build a couple surrounds since I'm going to move my volt10s to the ceiling for atmos. I have cinema 88s for bed layer surrounds and was thinking about doing 2 more but I was thinking for a little more I could try out a pair of non lx titans. They would be about 6 feet or so from the mlp... Too close? Obviously overkill, but I'm curious to try them out.

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post #82 of 86 Old 05-16-2018, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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I'm getting closer to finishing up the project I have in front of this one so I'm getting excited to start. Lately I have been playing around with the venu360 and getting used to it. It's a nice piece of gear for sure... Being able to make adjustments to eq from my couch on my laptop or using my phone/tablet is super convenient. I sold my pa460 I was using for the lf temporarily so now I am using a 21 inch celestion driver I was using as a sub ported to 25hz below the hf section. It works surprisingly well as a big mid/woofer. I also need to build a couple surrounds since I'm going to move my volt10s to the ceiling for atmos. I have cinema 88s for bed layer surrounds and was thinking about doing 2 more but I was thinking for a little more I could try out a pair of non lx titans. They would be about 6 feet or so from the mlp... Too close? Obviously overkill, but I'm curious to try them out.

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Bah, avs lost my post so I'm going to try and redo from what I remember.

So I lied and I'm still dragging my butt on this, lol. I decided to change things a little....I found some 12s that should allow for even closer CTC distances and I'm planning on running them side by side in pairs above and below the JBL 2384 waveguide, potentially overlapping the bottom and top of the waveguide over the driver frames to get everything ~2 inches closer. They are a 4ohm variant of the 18 Sounds 12NW530 and they are pretty beefy:

http://www.eighteensound.com/Product...d/3459/12nw530



I've measured them and their FR matches up very closely to the manufacturers published graphs. I dropped one into an enclosure I had of around 3.5 cuft tuned to 20 something hz and dumped a channel of a crown xls1500 on them and listened to some bassy music and I was very impressed at what 1 could do. I'm looking forward to putting 4 in two enclosures tuned to ~40hz and letting those rip. Here's what 4 look like with 1550 watts in ~8cuft tuned to 42 in 2pi space.....well under max excursion.

From looking through some other builds such as the SEOSR, I think this will all work as long as I can get a crossover to 600 or lower (22.66 inches CTC required for proper summation) from the 2453H-SL on the 2384 horn. I plan on making everything modular so it's easy to change and try different configurations. If this doesn't pan out, I have a plan b or an eventual upgrade path of using the pi midhorn from 250 - up to a good crossover point with the 2384 as a three way so I get more leeway with the crossover point and CTC distances of the 12s. While browsing threads I saw this monstrocity....which looks like something I'm kind of emulating:

https://www.renkus-heinz.com/stx9



No picture of the variant with the 90x40 waveguide dispersion though unfortunately. I should be able to get my CTC distances ~10 inches closer which affords a lower crossover point. Any thoughts or suggestions are welcomed
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post #83 of 86 Old 05-18-2018, 08:38 AM
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If you go to horizontal slot loaded woofers, you can reduce CTC even further.

Check out the link
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...rgy-horns.html

Build the slot in the shape of a "V" and you can get response to above 600 Hz with a 15" woofer. (One 15 is almost as good as 2 12's and two 15s ought to be enough!)
Match the width and the angle of the slot to the waveguide and you will match the waveguide's horizontal directivity.
Vertical directivity then is determined by the spacing between the two slots and the XO controlling overlap between the woofers and the waveguide
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post #84 of 86 Old 05-18-2018, 10:46 AM - Thread Starter
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If you go to horizontal slot loaded woofers, you can reduce CTC even further.

Check out the link
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...rgy-horns.html

Build the slot in the shape of a "V" and you can get response to above 600 Hz with a 15" woofer. (One 15 is almost as good as 2 12's and two 15s ought to be enough!)
Match the width and the angle of the slot to the waveguide and you will match the waveguide's horizontal directivity.
Vertical directivity then is determined by the spacing between the two slots and the XO controlling overlap between the woofers and the waveguide
Awesome, thanks Jack, I will check that out! I'll play around in hornresp with my drivers parameters and see what I come up with....any notions of what I can expect with dual 12s per enclosure?
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The 12" won't have as much volume displacement as a 15" and you can see what I got with the TD15s. Does it matter? depends on whether or not you will have subs for the last 2 octaves. If your system includes subs, as it should to deal with room issues if for no other reason, then either 12's or 15's sealed will get you down to where the subs take over, the 15s a little further.

I've got some AE TD12Xs and some AE TD15Hs. Every time I do a trial design it ends up with the 12's in vented box tuned to 35 Hz or so. When I'm contemplating TD15s they end up sealed. The extra Sd of the 15" driver swings the decision that way. But if you are crossing to subs at 80 Hz or even 60 Hz, or venting the 12's, you will be fine with them.
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post #86 of 86 Old 10-12-2018, 06:44 AM - Thread Starter
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So I couldn't get 12 of the 12nw530 like I had hoped so I bought a few LaVoce drivers to check them out...the WAF123.01 in particular. I'm super impressed by these! They appear to have great build quality and are beefy as hell. They weigh over 20lbs a piece, appear to have good motor venting, are really attractive with ground rubber gasket and waterproof cone and really nice cast aluminum frame. Hopefully I'll play with them and mount them in a test box later today. Here are some pics of these beasts...I also like the model naming convention...not sure they are WAF friendly though



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