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joebuddyguy 12-12-2017 06:07 AM

Stuck in Analysis Paralysis
 
Hi, I currently have a LCR of Cheap Thrills speakers from diysoundgroup that Bill Waslo designed (here's the original design thread: http://www.hificircuit.com/community...12-dna360.197/) which are awesome but I'm looking to upgrade. I have a few ideas on what I want to do, but not sure what to do, lol.

My goals are something bigger with better pattern control lower and would really like something with sensitivity of 100/db watt or more. I'm currently looking at Titan 615lx, 1899s and also considering diy'ing some kind of JBL 4722 variant. I'm in Canada so I get screwed on driver prices a little and I enjoy woodworking, so I'm not afraid to build my own enclosures etc. At first I thought I would just get the Titans and enjoy, but I don't want to get the nagging feeling in the back of my mind that I should have went for something more crazy. I currently have 6 B&C 21SW152s and 1 Celestion NTR21-5010JD for subs. I'm still working on an enclosure design for the 21sw152s....going fairly large ported or using passive radiators after I try them out. Planning on tuning around ~17hz.

I like the idea of building a proven design since I know it will sound great but I'm also curious about trying to put something together myself and thought a diy JBL 4722 would be a nice way to ease into going a little off the beaten path. My idea for the DIY JBL 4722 involves using the 2384 horn mated to the 2453H-SL compression driver (thanks for doing all the legwork there and measurements @notnyt ) and then finding some 15s to work under the HF section. I have found some NEO B&C drivers that appear to be OEM'ed for Yorkville (model 15/219-8) that Long and McQuade are clearing out that model similarly to the JBL 265 drivers in the 4722. Here are their TS parameters:

Fs: 41
Re: 5.2
QMS: 6.31
QES: 0.38
QTS: 0.34
Vas: 199.24 l
Mms: 75.4g
Le: 1.27
Bl: 17.5
SPL: 99.56
Eff: 3.80%
Xmax: 4mm
PE: 400w RMS

They are a little more sensitive than the 265s but have less xmax and they are also less than half the price ($99 CDN) which adds up quick when you need to buy 6 drivers. I would think I would tune a 8cuft enclosure to 50hz or so with the two of the drivers per cab. My other idea is to turn the 4722 into an MTM with one 15 over and under the horn. Wouldn't that work better than the current 4722 implementation and might be a better configuration for smaller theatres that don't need the horn up so high? I have a couple Crown DSI amps so I could go active technically, but I was wondering how well the stock 4722 crossover would work.

Also, wondering if there is something else coming up in the DIYSOUNDGROUP skunkworks that would be up my alley. A MTM Titan would be awesome, hint hint :P @EricH

Any suggestions? Thanks in advance

dtsdig 12-12-2017 09:04 AM

I heard some rumblings about a dual 12" TMWW Titan design in the past few weeks but haven't seen any details. I have not heard any of the Titans, but in my mind, I can't imagine wanting for more with 3 of those sitting in front of you.

To call out Erich, it's @Erich H

Erich H 12-12-2017 09:49 AM

There is a dual Magnum-12 design that MTG90 did, but I'm not sure if it will be offered as a kit due to the overall price it would end up being. We haven't discussed it too much yet. A kit could be made up but I'm not sure about the flat packs.

notnyt 12-12-2017 10:26 AM

I wouldn't use the stock 4722 crossover. You'd be better off going active. I'm putting something together soon with the minidsp pwr ice 250 plate amp. I'll see how it does.

BassThatHz 12-12-2017 11:17 AM

I have 3 gen1 ice 1000's. Their noisefloor and efficiency is quite good. SQ isn't too shabby considering gen1 class-D.
I'm sure they've improved some in the last 10years since then... :p

joebuddyguy 12-12-2017 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt (Post 55305776)
I wouldn't use the stock 4722 crossover. You'd be better off going active. I'm putting something together soon with the minidsp pwr ice 250 plate amp. I'll see how it does.

Cool, I'm looking forward to it....is it going to have 2 15's as well? I think I remember seeing one of your posts referencing the build.

notnyt 12-12-2017 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebuddyguy (Post 55306552)
Cool, I'm looking forward to it....is it going to have 2 15's as well? I think I remember seeing one of your posts referencing the build.

No, not for me. My front stage is active, but using dedicated components to achieve a ridiculously low noise floor. That said, hypex is coming out with some plate amps with dsp soonish. That will be interesting.

notnyt 12-12-2017 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BassThatHz (Post 55306146)
I have 3 gen1 ice 1000's. Their noisefloor and efficiency is quite good. SQ isn't too shabby considering gen1 class-D.
I'm sure they've improved some in the last 10years since then... :p

It's the minidsp that really increases the noise floor I think.

trilkb 12-12-2017 12:27 PM

the qsc 2150 clone is also pretty nice ;-)

BassThatHz 12-12-2017 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt (Post 55306582)
It's the minidsp that really increases the noise floor I think.

Since you have a 6001, you should test the mini, i'm sure it's not anywhere near -145db with any or even no filters on...

joebuddyguy 12-12-2017 01:39 PM

Anyone have any experience with a dbx venue 360 for dsp? I have a minidsp hd... But I think the noise floor will be too high for full range use.

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joebuddyguy 12-12-2017 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Erich H (Post 55305548)
There is a dual Magnum-12 design that MTG90 did, but I'm not sure if it will be offered as a kit due to the overall price it would end up being. We haven't discussed it too much yet. A kit could be made up but I'm not sure about the flat packs.

Cool, I remember seeing that one during one of eng's gtgs. I certainly wouldn't need a flat pack... And if someone really wanted one they could buy two of the mbm flat packs. The enclosure for the mid section would be pretty easy to diy...the TMM configuration would be really easy as the titan bracket would work for that one.

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notnyt 12-12-2017 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebuddyguy (Post 55307156)
Anyone have any experience with a dbx venue 360 for dsp? I have a minidsp hd... But I think the noise floor will be too high for full range use.

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I've heard good things, but haven't tested one myself.

joebuddyguy 12-12-2017 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trilkb (Post 55306654)
the qsc 2150 clone is also pretty nice ;-)

Thanks, yah, that one is interesting too... I tried to buy a trio of kits from a member but I didn't hear back from him. Maybe I should try again lol.

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joebuddyguy 12-12-2017 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt (Post 55307296)
I've heard good things, but haven't tested one myself.

Hmmm... I think @NWCgrad was using one... Maybe he can comment

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joebuddyguy 12-12-2017 02:59 PM

On a semi unrelated note, I just got an alert from camelcamelcamel about the price drop of the b&c 21sw152-4 for a really great price. I'm sure someone can make use of it:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00HJ...oCL&ref=plSrch

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NWCgrad 12-13-2017 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebuddyguy (Post 55307324)
Hmmm... I think @NWCgrad was using one... Maybe he can comment

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I am using one. I have tried both the balanced and unbalanced miniDSP 2X4 units and sold both. The dbx unit is very cool, the ability to sit in the prime listening position and tweak crossover points/filter type and PEQ filters is extremely useful. I am finding that what measures the best is rarely what sounds the best, I am unsure why that is. The Venu360 has a lot of DSP horsepower. Sometimes I get a noticeable hiss from the HF driver (JBL CD on horn without L-pad or other attenuation), but when I adjust the gain stages I can get the hiss to where you have to be within a foot to hear it. Someone more skilled at setting proper gain structure would be able to do even better.

I doubt there is any unit at the price point of the dbx that is better.

asarose247 12-13-2017 12:26 PM

You do realize that the driver listed is suitable for Submaximus V3 . .

no one has built it with a 21" driver --yet

twould be interesting to know if and how it might be "better"

but since you can get 2 UM-18 for the same price . . .

decisions, decisions

joebuddyguy 12-13-2017 01:16 PM

Ok, now amazon is tempting me... 21sw152-4 down to $509. Someone scoop these up. These are ~$200 cheaper than anyone else right now.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/ol/B00H...&condition=new

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joebuddyguy 12-13-2017 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWCgrad (Post 55312896)
I am using one. I have tried both the balanced and unbalanced miniDSP 2X4 units and sold both. The dbx unit is very cool, the ability to sit in the prime listening position and tweak crossover points/filter type and PEQ filters is extremely useful. I am finding that what measures the best is rarely what sounds the best, I am unsure why that is. The Venu360 has a lot of DSP horsepower. Sometimes I get a noticeable hiss from the HF driver (JBL CD on horn without L-pad or other attenuation), but when I adjust the gain stages I can get the hiss to where you have to be within a foot to hear it. Someone more skilled at setting proper gain structure would be able to do even better.

I doubt there is any unit at the price point of the dbx that is better.

Thanks man, that's what I was hoping to hear. The specs look really promising.... I was also looking at the xilica XD 4080 but it is $$$ and boasts Fir filter capability. So you don't find it noisy then? What kind of avr/processor do you have feeding it signal?



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joebuddyguy 12-13-2017 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asarose247 (Post 55313262)
You do realize that the driver listed is suitable for Submaximus V3 . .

no one has built it with a 21" driver --yet

twould be interesting to know if and how it might be "better"

but since you can get 2 UM-18 for the same price . . .

decisions, decisions

Haha, I've been tempted to build one, but I think with 6 ported 21s I'll be ok for output lol... My ht is only 2300cuft

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joebuddyguy 12-14-2017 07:09 AM

Hmmm.....maybe I should go full stupid crazy like @Scott Simonian and go with 2 of those B&C 15s above and below a Wayne Parham mid-horn/DNA360 combo, does a passive crossover exist between those two(mid-horn and HF)?....looking at the modeling, I would be ~ 104db/watt from 50hz - 20khz. Scott, how much trouble was that to put together EQ wise? Or I could keep it a 2-way with the JBL 2453H-SL on a 2384 in between two pairs of 15s.

FriscoDTM 12-14-2017 07:44 AM

SEOS30 with the Radian 950 Be crossed under 500Hz to a horn loaded woofer sounds like a fun project that might fit some of your goals

NWCgrad 12-14-2017 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebuddyguy (Post 55313750)
Thanks man, that's what I was hoping to hear. The specs look really promising.... I was also looking at the xilica XD 4080 but it is $$$ and boasts Fir filter capability. So you don't find it noisy then? What kind of avr/processor do you have feeding it signal?



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I looked at the Xilica processors when I was researching the dbx unit. In the end the models with FIR were above what I was willing to spend.

I run a Marantz AV7702. Amps are Crown DriveCore for HF and MF and Crown XLS1500 for LF.

If you go with Parham's midhorns I have a couple of the Eminence drivers I could send your way. I am running the hard to find JBL 2012H's in mine.

joebuddyguy 12-14-2017 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FriscoDTM (Post 55317766)
SEOS30 with the Radian 950 Be crossed under 500Hz to a horn loaded woofer sounds like a fun project that might fit some of your goals

That does sound fun.....those compression drivers are pretty pricey but I've read good things about them. I have a decent amount to spend on this project, but that may be a little out of my price range. That's why I was looking at the JBL 2453h-sl and the 2384 horn as kind of a value based compromise. Thanks for the suggestion :)

joebuddyguy 12-14-2017 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWCgrad (Post 55318020)
I looked at the Xilica processors when I was researching the dbx unit. In the end the models with FIR were above what I was willing to spend.

I run a Marantz AV7702. Amps are Crown DriveCore for HF and MF and Crown XLS1500 for LF.

If you go with Parham's midhorns I have a couple of the Eminence drivers I could send your way. I am running the hard to find JBL 2012H's in mine.


Nice, I'm gravitating to the venue360 although I might be in good shape with the crown dsi amps I have....would just need to find one more. I have some crown xls 1502 and 1500 amps as well that I'm currently using.

How much would you want for the delta10 drivers shipped to 48060? When you decided to use Wayne's horn and before you decided to full active, was there a passive crossover for the H290/midhorn(I guess the top 2/3rds of the 7pii design)? I'm wondering if I could try that here to save an amp channel.

joebuddyguy 12-15-2017 08:14 AM

Hey @notnyt , I understand you are using FIR filters for your LCR....is it a huge difference audibly to IIR filters? I found a good deal on Ashly PEMA amps using protea dsp and it appears it can support FIR filters, but looks like it has 384 taps.....is that sufficient for eq?

notnyt 12-15-2017 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebuddyguy (Post 55324206)
Hey @notnyt , I understand you are using FIR filters for your LCR....is it a huge difference audibly to IIR filters? I found a good deal on Ashly PEMA amps using protea dsp and it appears it can support FIR filters, but looks like it has 384 taps.....is that sufficient for eq?

384 taps is not enough.


FIR filtering is nice, as I can do very precise corrections and steep crossovers without affecting phase. As to audibility of linear vs minimum phase, I still need to do some testing, but research states no audible difference. I'd still like to confirm this first hand at some point, but too many projects atm.

joebuddyguy 12-15-2017 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notnyt (Post 55326066)
384 taps is not enough.


FIR filtering is nice, as I can do very precise corrections and steep crossovers without affecting phase. As to audibility of linear vs minimum phase, I still need to do some testing, but research states no audible difference. I'd still like to confirm this first hand at some point, but too many projects atm.

Cool, thanks for feedback... Other than the limited Fir capability, the amp looks pretty solid dsp wise. Don't hear too much about Ashly amps here though

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NWCgrad 12-18-2017 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joebuddyguy (Post 55318558)
How much would you want for the delta10 drivers shipped to 48060? When you decided to use Wayne's horn and before you decided to full active, was there a passive crossover for the H290/midhorn(I guess the top 2/3rds of the 7pii design)? I'm wondering if I could try that here to save an amp channel.

As I recall the top 2/3rds of the 7 Pi XO should allow you to save an amp channel.

Send me PM on the drivers, they are brand new and never hooked up. I am missing on of the boxes as I used it to send my JBL 2012H driver for re-coning and they returned it in a B&C box.


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