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post #91 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 10:11 AM
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Comparing DIYSoundGroup Designs

Quote:
Originally Posted by tk123 View Post
I want to thank everyone in this thread for all of the insight into the differences between these speakers. I’ve been wondering about this since I first discovered DIYSG.

Just a quick question tho. I’m not sure if I missed it or if it has been mentioned much.

Given the high sensitivity of these designs and being used in a room that is the right size for each design, do these speakers work well with just AVR power ? Or, would they need separate amplification? I understand the power handling of the larger designs is far greater than any AVR, but, generally, is an amp needed to get loud volumes with them ?


I’ll just share my experience. When I put my Titan 615lx LCR on an external amp, the lows were noticeably better. This is while running them full range and no sub. Just for fun, because I do run subs. Then I sold my xpa3 and went back to avr power for a month while I waited for my new xpa7. With subs, crossed over at 80, I can’t say I really hear a difference with them powered by the avr (denon x6300h) or my xpa7. I use the external amps because I like to push it up loud and I like knowing there’s enough headroom there. To answer the question, no. You don’t need external power for these high efficiency speakers. If you want it, that can be a down the road upgrade.
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post #92 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 10:30 AM
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Has anyone built any of the ribbon tweeter designs yet?
Isn't there supposed to be a new ribbon tweeter speaker coming out?

Also EricH,
The Fusion 8 Tower.
Cool stuff.
That should just be called "The WAF Commercial Tower Killer Speaker". Back originally, I would have loved that speaker. Now, it's too late... things like the TitanLX and the 1899... I can never be reasonable again.
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post #93 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post

Those that hate Klipsch have not heard them in a treated room. Klipsch is a top brand and the "harsh" titanium tweeters are nothing of the sort properly placed in the right
This is what scares me I guess...

Klipsch absolutely have a characteristic “sound”. Treated or untreated room. Many professional reviewers will attest to the fact that Klipsch, Polk, Golden Ear, and others are not designed with a neutral tone/response as the target. That doesn’t mean they are bad by any means, but if you are not a fan of the sound characteristics you willl likely not be happy with any of their speakers...

I just wish I knew what commercial speakers have similar sound “characteristics “ or “profile” to each of the DIYSG offerings.

Like I said elsewhere, I tend to like a neutral speaker/headphone. Paradigm, JBL LSR305, and my Etymotic headphones....

The efficiency is nice, but in a lot of use cases(like listening below reference), you just don’t need this level of output/efficiency either.

Maybe I’ll look around to listen to some designs, but feeling more based on responses that they likely aren’t a good fit for my preferences. Still confused though....
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post #94 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I’ll just share my experience. When I put my Titan 615lx LCR on an external amp, the lows were noticeably better. This is while running them full range and no sub. Just for fun, because I do run subs. Then I sold my xpa3 and went back to avr power for a month while I waited for my new xpa7. With subs, crossed over at 80, I can’t say I really hear a difference with them powered by the avr (denon x6300h) or my xpa7. I use the external amps because I like to push it up loud and I like knowing there’s enough headroom there. To answer the question, no. You don’t need external power for these high efficiency speakers. If you want it, that can be a down the road upgrade.
Thanks JK. That’s exactly what I was thinking the outcome would be. By the way, awesome set-up you have there and congratulations on the Home Threter Award. I can only dream of something like this.
I’m coming from a mostly car audio background but I think a lot of similarities exist between there and home audio. For instance, I know that with my current truck system, going from a 100 watt/channel amp to a 400 watt/channel amp on my midbasses made a very noticeable difference in their performance. This, of course, just like in Home Audio, I would imagine , takes a bit of retuning and EQ/room set-up adjustments.
But, with the smaller speakers, like the HTM or Fusion series, I would imagine the difference would be less pronounced ? Is that a good assumption?
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post #95 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 11:17 AM
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Any idea when the new site will be up and running?
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post #96 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 11:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcr159 View Post
This is what scares me I guess...

Klipsch absolutely have a characteristic “sound”. Treated or untreated room. Many professional reviewers will attest to the fact that Klipsch, Polk, Golden Ear, and others are not designed with a neutral tone/response as the target. That doesn’t mean they are bad by any means, but if you are not a fan of the sound characteristics you willl likely not be happy with any of their speakers...

I just wish I knew what commercial speakers have similar sound “characteristics “ or “profile” to each of the DIYSG offerings.

Like I said elsewhere, I tend to like a neutral speaker/headphone. Paradigm, JBL LSR305, and my Etymotic headphones....

The efficiency is nice, but in a lot of use cases(like listening below reference), you just don’t need this level of output/efficiency either.

Maybe I’ll look around to listen to some designs, but feeling more based on responses that they likely aren’t a good fit for my preferences. Still confused though....
This is true and as a frequent Klipsch forum visitor i have seen graphs confirming it. i believe most people dont have a treated room and so klipsch...even with autoeq can sound harsh and rightfully so. i agree. i own many klipsch speakers.

when i built my htm12s the first and most obvious characteristic was how clearly i could discern the recording quality. some older recordings that lesser speakers would cover up were stark and clearly poorly recorded. i learned what high fidelity meant right then.

these are all very nuetral. i believe it corresponds to high end name brands costing way more. yes i can pump 450watts into each htm12 but realistically use maybe 60watts. the entire design concept for most of these is constant directivity using pro components TAMED TO SOUND AS GOOD OR BETTER than most consumer speakers. your goal is same as mine and many other diysg fans.

the extra benefit imo is lets say i switch the htm12s to a 20ft listening distance or even 25. they can keep up and still arent near their limits where any speakers quality breaks down. food for thought
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post #97 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcr159 View Post
This is what scares me I guess...

Klipsch absolutely have a characteristic “sound”. Treated or untreated room. Many professional reviewers will attest to the fact that Klipsch, Polk, Golden Ear, and others are not designed with a neutral tone/response as the target. That doesn’t mean they are bad by any means, but if you are not a fan of the sound characteristics you willl likely not be happy with any of their speakers...

I just wish I knew what commercial speakers have similar sound “characteristics “ or “profile” to each of the DIYSG offerings.

Like I said elsewhere, I tend to like a neutral speaker/headphone. Paradigm, JBL LSR305, and my Etymotic headphones....

The efficiency is nice, but in a lot of use cases(like listening below reference), you just don’t need this level of output/efficiency either.

Maybe I’ll look around to listen to some designs, but feeling more based on responses that they likely aren’t a good fit for my preferences. Still confused though....
They're all designed to be neutral.
Anything extra is explained.
The 1899 has a midbass bump... I think that's pretty obvious when you see 2 18 inch woofers.... I think you're kind of paying specifically for that midbass bump.....

So ya...
But if you don't need the efficiency or output, that opens up a LOT of designs to you.
The first spec I look at is efficiency and power handling. Reference level and above is important to me. You're definitely not forced into the high efficiency designs.
There are some ribbon tweeter designs coming, check those out too. I have heard great things about ribbon tweeters for highs. However Ribbon Tweeter designs aren't as efficient (Correct me if I'm wrong on this I'm going off my limited knowledge here)

Again, there is no best design, it depends on what you need....

It's like saying what "what's the best PC!" and you're picking between a tablet, 2 in 1, desktop, and laptop. Like uh.... you kind of have different use cases for all of them.

If I was you, I'd check out a Ribbon Tweeter design, just based off my gut.
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post #98 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 11:52 AM
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Gents please write reviews for your builds on the diysg site.
it is absolutely true the kits are sold at cost

for those who havent heard them think of it this way
if jtr or seatons cost 300 to 500 per speaker would you want them or be scared they are too cheap?
triple or quadruple the cost of any diysg design and you are in the ballpark of their market value

i mentioned my opinion in the 2nd post --

titans are king(1899s being unrealistic for most people)
htm12s or fusion 12s
893s

best
better
great

all the others especially the 1099s fit in somewhere and are magnificent
for a long time the 1099s were hard to get and again....go 4x their cost to estimate the true value
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post #99 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 12:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H
I don't think you've given much info here on how the speakers are going to be used though. Seating distance, how loud do you listen, subwoofers, second row of seating, etc.
Oh, I thought I did, maybe I am mixing threads. Dedicated treated room, ~15.5' x 27.5' x 9', 4' deep area behind false screen wall, speakers in there behind a 138" wide 2.39:1 AT screen on top of two subs, with two rows of seating (I always sit in the front row, slightly right of center - 4th recliner arriving soon). Running 13 speaker surround sound with 4 18" LLTs tuned ~12.5hz crossed over at 80hz. Mains are Boston Acoustics VR3s, all others on the floor are VR1s, and the 4 in ceilings are Boston Hsi 460s. The LCR will be powered by an Onkyo TX-NR3010 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32. The two receivers powering all the speakers have their own dedicated 20 amp run, the two Carvin amps for the Avalanche 18 LLTs have their own 20 amp run, and the inuke6000 for the SI HT18 LLTs has its own 20 amp line.

I sit ~13' from the L&R and 12' from the center. I use the room for movies and music, 60:40. I watch movies at no louder than -10, and music just varies, every recording is different. I tailor all the sound for the front row, the back row is an afterthought for guests. The floor is floating on the slab with high density foam, 2x4s, and 3/4" OSB.


















Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS
This is a bit over the top. You assume there is a best and dont consider reality.

The room makes a bigger difference than the speaker. Ive seen your threads before and think you know this but you still persist in suggesting there is a best.

What if someone has an untreated small room? Good luck finding any speaker that sounds great. Those that hate Klipsch have not heard them in a treated room. Klipsch is a top brand and the "harsh" titanium tweeters are nothing of the sort properly placed in the right room.

The largest offering is not best in most rooms...it is merely what satisfies the natural inclination to wonder what if.
I'm not asking about someone with a small untreated room though, and I'm not asking about a computer speaker on a desk. In a medium sized treated room, there will be a sound quality difference between say the waveguide on the midwoofer of the Titan and the dual horizontal mids of the 1299. We don't need to keep discussing weird what if's to deflect the question, I understand they are all of high quality and we don't want to diminish any of the designers - that's clearly not my intent. If we can't get past that "but what if" and "every room is different" stage and at least discuss some of the technical merits of the different designs in a relative way, then I'll just let it die.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tential
I'm just confused here.
You have no restrictions.
Why would you bring up the Titan 15 when there is a Titan 15 LX?
To me it would be CLEAR you'd want the LX model from your posts, so I feel like I missed something.
I'm just confused since it'd be clear to me to spend the extra $100 on the LX model for the better CD after you specifically seemed to want the best quality CD you can get.
No worries, I meant the Titan 15LX, just didn't type the full name. I wouldn't skimp out over better drivers for $100. I do a lot of posting from my phone, so speed and ease takes priority.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tential
Although since you said you want the best, that has to be the Intrusive 1899. If you have no restrictions, I really don't see how it's much of a discussion/debate. I feel like you have a lot of reservations on the quality of the Intrusive 1899(or any speakers for that matter).
I'm not convinced the 1899 is the best for sound quality. What are the crossover frequencies? Am I going to get much use out of the 18s, or am I better off crossing slightly higher to a 12" or 15". I'm not keen of the idea of a built in midbass hump below 300hz. The Titan has the waveguide for the mid, the 1899 does not - supposedly the key ingredient to all of the DIYSG designs is the SEOS waveguide, and they both share the same 15" SEOS waveguide for the cd, but only the Titan has one for the mid. So from my current point of view, the Titan should theoretically have the best sound quality.



If any of my posts are coming off as standoffish I apologize, not my intent. Just trying to narrow the field down because I can't do listening tests with 5 different designs. I'm getting some PMs with people being more direct on which sounds the best, so I appreciate that.
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post #100 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 02:07 PM
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Steve you want the titans imo.
You have a very carefully constructed room and know what u are doing. The first winner of the system of the week was eng who also built the first set.

Your sub setup is plenty not to need 1899s. I would suggest htm12s but your taste and past experience tells me it wont wow you as much as the amazing titans

The giant waveguides are the cream of diysg
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post #101 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Steve you want the titans imo.
You have a very carefully constructed room and know what u are doing. The first winner of the system of the week was eng who also built the first set.

Your sub setup is plenty not to need 1899s. I would suggest htm12s but your taste and past experience tells me it wont wow you as much as the amazing titans

The giant waveguides are the cream of diysg

You would use subs with 1899s(A Person on AVS forum would use subs with 1899s I should say)... just like 24s or something. You could use 18s. but aesthetically and emotionally, you would want to use at 24 inch subs.
21 inch minimum

Pick yourself up a couple of these:
http://stereointegrity.com/product/hs24-24-subwoofer/

But in all seriousness:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/401-di...lcr-build.html

That's how you use the 1899s... I mean... you just do it!

Last edited by tential; 01-13-2018 at 03:01 PM.
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post #102 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Oh, I thought I did, maybe I am mixing threads. Dedicated treated room, ~15.5' x 27.5' x 9', 4' deep area behind false screen wall, speakers in there behind a 138" wide 2.39:1 AT screen on top of two subs, with two rows of seang (I always sit in the front row, slightly right of center - 4th recliner arriving soon). Running 13 speaker surround sound with 4 18" LLTs tuned ~12.5hz crossed over at 80hz. Mains are Boston Acoustics VR3s, all others on the floor are VR1s, and the 4 in ceilings are Boston Hsi 460s. The LCR will be powered by an Onkyo TX-NR3010 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32. The two receivers powering all the speakers have their own dedicated 20 amp run, the two Carvin amps for the Avalanche 18 LLTs have their own 20 amp run, and the inuke6000 for the SI HT18 LLTs has its own 20 amp line.

I sit ~13' from the L&R and 12' from the center. I use the room for movies and music, 60:40. I watch movies at no louder than -10, and music just varies, every recording is different. I tailor all the sound for the front row, the back row is an afterthought for guests. The floor is floating on the slab with high density foam, 2x4s, and 3/4" OSB.



















I'm not asking about someone with a small untreated room though, and I'm not asking about a computer speaker on a desk. In a medium sized treated room, there will be a sound quality difference between say the waveguide on the midwoofer of the Titan and the dual horizontal mids of the 1299. We don't need to keep discussing weird what if's to deflect the question, I understand they are all of high quality and we don't want to diminish any of the designers - that's clearly not my intent. If we can't get past that "but what if" and "every room is different" stage and at least discuss some of the technical merits of the different designs in a relative way, then I'll just let it die.



No worries, I meant the Titan 15LX, just didn't type the full name. I wouldn't skimp out over better drivers for $100. I do a lot of posting from my phone, so speed and ease takes priority.



I'm not convinced the 1899 is the best for sound quality. What are the crossover frequencies? Am I going to get much use out of the 18s, or am I better off crossing slightly higher to a 12" or 15". I'm not keen of the idea of a built in midbass hump below 300hz. The Titan has the waveguide for the mid, the 1899 does not - supposedly the key ingredient to all of the DIYSG designs is the SEOS waveguide, and they both share the same 15" SEOS waveguide for the cd, but only the Titan has one for the mid. So from my current point of view, the Titan should theoretically have the best sound quality.



If any of my posts are coming off as standoffish I apologize, not my intent. Just trying to narrow the field down because I can't do listening tests with 5 different designs. I'm getting some PMs with people being more direct on which sounds the best, so I appreciate that.
I was in your situation, and I was the exact same way man, so I understand.

The TitanLX is what I would recommend to you. I mean, that's just painfully obvious looking at your room. It's the largest speaker you can fit.

Your concerns regarding the 1899 would have to be answered by someone more knowledgable than me, but I think that's a moot point given your room. The Titan LX is the newest speaker design, just given the design alone, I think it'd be the "best" you can do. That's my opinion.
When I came back here and saw the TitanLX design I was floored.
Since your speakers all hidden behind a screen the TitanLX is your best option.

That's what I'd say.

Also, I'll give my complete nooby take on your midrange question with the 1899s.
This is again why speaker design/application is important. You like the wageguide of the midrange of the TitanLX vs the 1899. To me, I'd rather have the power handling of the 18 inch woofers. Because to me, quality at the HIGHEST SPL is the most important. So the 1899 in my opinion with the dual woofers will cover a large room/warehouse/party room WAY better for filling that room with high quality music than a TitanLX. However, in a movie/directivity setting, I imagine the waveguide of the midrange on the LX helps a lot as you suggest.

Just my noob take, they'd sound better based on the application. For a person like myself who would throw parties/take the speakers out to a barn/outside and blast them, then ya... the 1899s are definitely way better than the TitanLX... at least I think so.

Always willing to hear and be educated by the experts.

The TitanLX pretty much is everything you need though. Just build em!

All this talk, I'm about to pick up something just for fun. I really want to know more about the HelixMTM kit with a horn ribbon tweeter.
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post #103 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 03:09 PM
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Another comparison question. I notice the 8” speakers use an Eos waveguide. But, larger ones use the Seos. Why and what’s the difference between the Eos & Seos ?
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post #104 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 03:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tk123 View Post
Another comparison question. I notice the 8” speakers use an Eos waveguide. But, larger ones use the Seos. Why and what’s the difference between the Eos & Seos ?
Geometry. The waveguide mouth is a Super Ellipse on the SEOS and just plain elliptical on the EOS. The OS stands for oblate spheroid, which describes the geometry of the transition from the throat to the mouth of the waveguide. It’s technically what makes it a waveguide and not just a horn.
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post #105 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 03:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Running 13 speaker surround sound with 4 18" LLTs tuned ~12.5hz crossed over at 80hz. Mains are Boston Acoustics VR3s, all others on the floor are VR1s, and the 4 in ceilings are Boston Hsi 460s. The LCR will be powered by an Onkyo TX-NR3010 with Audyssey MultiEQ XT32. The two receivers powering all the speakers have their own dedicated 20 amp run, the two Carvin amps for the Avalanche 18 LLTs have their own 20 amp run, and the inuke6000 for the SI HT18 LLTs has its own 20 amp line.
I love your room. I'm curious though how your bass response changes if you were to flip your front subs so each driver is on the left and right edge? I imagine how they are now, because of how close they are, they would act as a single sub with a large amount of output.
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post #106 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 04:33 PM
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BBrinkman, thanks for the explanation. I understand that. But, what is the performance difference between the two and why is EOS used in some designs but SEOS in others ?
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post #107 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I definitely don't want club-like output levels, not my aim at all. I don't enjoy listening to music as loud as you would hear it at a club, that is not comfortable or enjoyable to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saber008
I love your room. I'm curious though how your bass response changes if you were to flip your front subs so each driver is on the left and right edge? I imagine how they are now, because of how close they are, they would act as a single sub with a large amount of output.
Thanks. I put the drivers towards the center for two reasons. First, I needed the ports to be able to fire somewhere with lots of clearance, so if the drivers were on the outer edges, the ports would be facing each other in the center with no clearance at all. I stick to cylindrical ports, not slot ports, for better flow characteristics, and I believe in giving the port opening clearance equal to port diameter in all directions. So as it is now, the ports fire out to each side wall with plenty of clearance behind the screen.

Second, I intend to eventually build two more vertical subs behind the ones under the screen with the drivers firing forward into the room approximately 5' off the ground. The position of the drivers will be lined up closely to the position of the drivers on the subs under the screen, only higher. In doing this, those 4 subs can be EQ'd relatively easily as one sub since the drivers will be so close together, and then the two downfiring sonosubs in the back left of the room can be EQ'd together as sub #2 , since Audyssey only lets you EQ two subs.
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post #108 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 05:10 PM
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BBrinkman, thanks for the explanation. I understand that. But, what is the performance difference between the two and why is EOS used in some designs but SEOS in others ?
Erich answered the "why" a couple of years ago, it's about the economics of manufacturing SEOS waveguides in a bunch of different sizes vs. buying waveguides that work fine for smaller speakers.

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...mbo-jumbo.html (scroll down)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
The SEOS was designed here on the AVS forum. Prototypes were done and tested. But fiberglass models were over $100 each and just too expensive for most people. So I started looking into all kinds of other ideas to bring the price down. Plastic was the best option, but getting injection molds and pieces prototyped can cost 10's of thousands of dollars. The only way for that to make sense is to buy at least 1000 at a time to divide out costs.

The SEOS-12 was the one most people agreed should be started first due to it's average size. There was a huge group buy set up over all the DIY audio forums and basically everyone came together and preordered some. I had a work truck I didn't need any more and sold that to help pay for the remaining costs.

Same exact thing happened last year with the SEOS-10 and SEOS-15.
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post #109 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 05:58 PM
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Ok. So it’s not so much a matter of one being better, more an economic solution. I see.
I was just wondering why the Fusion8 & Cinema8 used the smaller EOS waveguide. I thought it may have had solely to do with the baffle width.
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post #110 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 06:36 PM
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Comparing DIYSoundGroup Designs

@SteveCallas



I would seriously consider the 1099's. The Titans are very nice but where would they go in your setup? The 1099's could sit right on your subs. They are very easy ti drive and are super dynamic. I know my theater speaker search is done for me personally.

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post #111 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted by tk123 View Post
Ok. So it’s not so much a matter of one being better, more an economic solution. I see.
I was just wondering why the Fusion8 & Cinema8 used the smaller EOS waveguide. I thought it may have had solely to do with the baffle width.
When the SEOS waveguides were being designed here on AVS pretty much everyone in that big thread thought the 12" should be done first. After it was prototyped, the 15" and 10" were designed (still out of fiberglass). During the discussion/design/testing phase the AVS guys assumed all of these were going to be expensive fiberglass models going with expensive woofers and big speakers. So a smaller SEOS-8 was never even brought up.

When the SEOS-12 was getting made into plastic I knew there was going to be extra room on the shipping container and got a bunch of sample horns and waveguides from different manufactures. One was the EOS-8. It worked good, so I asked Jeff Bagby if he'd make some speakers using them and 8" woofers. They've pretty much never changed since. Probably about 5-6 years ago?

I had the SEOS-8 prototyped and made up a couple years ago. One reason was for the 893, but knowing they'd eventually replace the EOS-8's. Jeff talked about this on another forum, but he had some health issues a couple years ago and I didn't want to bother him with the Alchemy redesign during that time. MT, MTM, tower, center channel, possibly a new woofer, possibly a new compression driver, all new flat packs.....it's a lot of work.

At some point they'll get redone, but there really isn't a huge rush. There's been very little feedback (only one person) going from the original purple coned Beta-8's to the hemp coned model, so I'm not sure if those will be continued into the redesign. Eminence made some really nice 8" woofer prototypes a couple years ago but they'd cause the Alchemy price to jump up a bit and that might not go over so well either. That slows things down because I don't know which direction to go, which is why they haven't changed much.
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post #112 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
There's been very little feedback (only one person) going from the original purple coned Beta-8's to the hemp coned model, so I'm not sure if those will be continued into the redesign. Eminence made some really nice 8" woofer prototypes a couple years ago but they'd cause the Alchemy price to jump up a bit and that might not go over so well either. That slows things down because I don't know which direction to go, which is why they haven't changed much.
If you want the SEOS with an 8, the upcoming HTM-8 would do it. Erich, any word on that mysterious model about to show up? Basically, what differences between the Fusion 8 woofer and it? More efficiency? Less efficiency? Deeper bass or just lighter in weight?

Have a project in stall mode between using the hemp cone 8's or the upcoming HTM-8 variant. Thanks for any information available for the HTM-8 or the differences between the hemp cone 8 and the original purple cone 8's.

Thanks for the info and I hope your website redo is getting easier.
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post #113 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 07:17 PM
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Ahhh. I see. So the smaller Fusion & Cinema speaker’s we’re actually designed around the waveguide instead of designing the speaker, then implementing the waveguide. Makes sense considering it was already an available component.
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post #114 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
I'm not convinced the 1899 is the best for sound quality. What are the crossover frequencies? Am I going to get much use out of the 18s, or am I better off crossing slightly higher to a 12" or 15". I'm not keen of the idea of a built in midbass hump below 300hz. The Titan has the waveguide for the mid, the 1899 does not - supposedly the key ingredient to all of the DIYSG designs is the SEOS waveguide, and they both share the same 15" SEOS waveguide for the cd, but only the Titan has one for the mid. So from my current point of view, the Titan should theoretically have the best sound quality.
The 1899 uses the high-end compression driver. The crossover frequency is probably a little above 1kHz.
The Titan 615LX has a crossover at 1900Hz, which is the sort of crossover frequency people like to hand-wave over.

Both these speakers have a capable woofer to deal with floor bounce issues. This sidesteps the problems inherent to a full-range 2-way speaker that sits on a stand or riser.

It’s funny, when I joined in on the group buy for the SEOS-12, I was using a pair of Klipsch Fortes (3-way speaker with horn-loaded HF and mid, tuned to about 45Hz). I had been reading about the Gedlee speakers and was excited by the proposition of a pair of speakers with similar sensitivity ratings but without any of the “honkiness.” In the situation I was in at the time, the initial SEOS speaker designs were a mixed blessing: I didn’t have a subwoofer and most of them required one. I also was apprehensive about losing the midrange horn magic, but eventually convinced myself a woofer and waveguide would suffice. So I find it a bit ironic that these big speakers being proferred as superior to the others have more in common with my previous Klipsch speakers than they do with the speakers that kicked off the whole endeavor. I don’t mean this as a swipe or anything, I ❤️ DIYSG. Life is just funny sometimes.
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post #115 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by tk123 View Post
Ahhh. I see. So the smaller Fusion & Cinema speaker’s we’re actually designed around the waveguide instead of designing the speaker, then implementing the waveguide. Makes sense considering it was already an available component.
I'm not sure I follow on some of that, but it's late. All of the speakers were started from scratch by picking what waveguide we wanted to use with what compression driver and woofer to hit the overall design goal of the speaker.

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post #116 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
I'm not sure I follow on some of that, but it's late. All of the speakers were started from scratch by picking what waveguide we wanted to use with what compression driver and woofer to hit the overall design goal of the speaker.
Hahaha. Yeah. That’s pretty much what I meant. Just wasn’t sure how to put it into words.
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post #117 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 08:28 PM
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post #118 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 09:10 PM
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1899 or bust 🍻
Your garage floor alone is too lavish for me
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post #119 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 09:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBrinkman
The 1899 uses the high-end compression driver. The crossover frequency is probably a little above 1kHz.
The Titan 615LX has a crossover at 1900Hz, which is the sort of crossover frequency people like to hand-wave over.
Hmm. You are saying the 1899 crosses over to the mid around 1khz but then others are trying to say the 18s are used as more than subs, so hypothetically around 350hz. So the expensive 12" mid only covers 350-1000hz? No, that doesn't sound right. Someone earlier said the cd used in the 1899 and Maximus doesn't go as low as the less expensive ones, and I would still imagine the 18s are crossing very low to basically be subs, so the 12" is covering maybe 250 -1800hz. Or Erich could just tell us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian6751
The Titans are very nice but where would they go in your setup? The 1099's could sit right on your subs
The Titans would go on top of those subs. I sit 13' away, so I could either tilt them forward a bit by raising the back end so that the SEOS waveguide reached my ears at my seat, or I could put the waveguides on the sub and raise the 15" driver box to sit above the waveguide.

What concerns me about the 1099/1299 is the dual mids side by side. You don't see this arrangement in any commercial LR offerings that I know of, only in a horizontal (compromised) center channel, and it should create some comb filtering. If it used a single centered mid, then the 1299 would seem to have been a strong contender for me. Ideally, I'd still like to see the Titan with a single 12" woofer.
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post #120 of 157 Old 01-13-2018, 10:06 PM
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Here’s the FL-450 on a SEOS-12


Here’s the DNA-360 (in blue) on a SEOS-12


No EQ on either. 1/24th octave smoothing.
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