New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 08:03 AM
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Im standing outside Tymphany now, driver under my arm, knocking on the door.
Where is everybody?
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post #392 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 10:21 AM
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What alignment did you have in mind for the STW's you purchased?
Not sure yet, have a couple things that I plan to experiment with. So far, I am leaning towards higher-order boxes though.

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Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
IMO I think we are going way off the rails with the Klippel stuff. The design of the driver is clearly marketed towards small boxes and lots of power supplied, to which it probably does well at. Is it worth the money? does the extra cost justify the snake oil in the advertising? who knows and really who cares at this point. I don't think it'd do the community any good to sacrifice a driver to see if the marketing department did what a marketing department does, stretch truths.
Advertising and snake oil? Say it isn't so!! My iNuke makes every bit of the 3000 watts it claims. It says it does right on the box.

The Klippel is a great tool to assess drivers, but it is not the only way. The linearity data would be nice to see. I certainly don't expect to see 40+ mm linear, but I would be stunned if it was only 10.4 mm as stated based on the geometric formula. ARTA can be configured to measure usable excursion, I do hope to test my STWs within the limits of the gear I have some day, but don't hold your breath. At a basic level, SPL is directly proportional to excursion, so a stepped series of sweeps can also be enlightening, especially with distortion data.

I'm not inclined to sacrifice one of my STWs for science. I've already measured what I need to in order to be confident that I can design a decent cabinet for it and get results that are similar to what I simulated. Now I just need to get a design done and a test-mule built, that is a ways off though.

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For a total of $1000, I can think of other areas that would benefit the DIY community more. Like testing the Fi HT drivers
I'd love to see real data on them too. Why stop there though? There are a lot of drivers out there, but not nearly enough valid test data.
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post #393 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 10:44 AM
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I got no problem with Nick -- at least he puts his money where his mouth is. Someone called him out indirectly, and I don't blame him for responding.

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post #394 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 11:17 AM
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I got no problem with Nick -- at least he puts his money where his mouth is. Someone called him out indirectly, and I don't blame him for responding.
Cause there's nothing like hiding the T/S specs of your dual 4 ohm coil version of your driver and making them available by request only.
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post #395 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 11:20 AM
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Cause there's nothing like hiding the T/S specs of your dual 4 ohm coil version of your driver and making them available by request only.

Oh... No...
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post #396 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
At a basic level, SPL is directly proportional to excursion, so a stepped series of sweeps can also be enlightening, especially with distortion data.

Excellent point, and if you had a way to gate the measurement to allow only the fundamental, you wouldn't even have to measure distortion.


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I'm not inclined to sacrifice one of my STWs for science.

I don't see why the above would put the driver in any danger.

We're interested in xmax, which if performed around Fs should be doable at a fraction of the rated power.

Not sure how much difference it would make by letting the driver off easy current-wise though.

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post #397 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 01:04 PM
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Excellent point, and if you had a way to gate the measurement to allow only the fundamental, you wouldn't even have to measure distortion.
I like to look at the distortion products, sometimes the respective levels of odd vs even harmonics can shed light on what's causing the problem.

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I don't see why the above would put the driver in any danger.

We're interested in xmax, which if performed around Fs should be doable at a fraction of the rated power.

Not sure how much difference it would make by letting the driver off easy current-wise though.
I was referring to the potential for driver damage during a Klippel test. Both Redrock and Warkwyn indicated that they can't guarantee the driver won't get hurt. I understand that is probably their standard line that they use in order to limit their liability, but Ricci's comments suggest that testing this driver to its limits might take a fair bit of power.

A series of stepped-level tone bursts measuring SPL at system resonance might be a relatively safe approach to explore this. I know that I can set both power and distortion limits in STEPS, but I am not sure I can use tone bursts as a signal. I will have to explore this a bit more.
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post #398 of 601 Old 03-20-2019, 09:22 PM
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Sorry for the lack of updates, I was offline for a bit.

I have heard back from Warkwyn. They'll test anything we send them and they have the right gear to do it.

Two issues -

1. Warkwyn is not cheap, they have a $500 minimum, that doesn't include any shipping costs.

2. Might be terminal - basically, testing it to the limits may destroy my driver, and though I could buy another one, I'd rather not have to.

Basically - after shipping, this could cost me nearly a grand if the driver gets smoked (and there is a good chance of that). We're nowhere near that with the $$ pledged so far.

As Ricci's already got a driver that he's planning to test, I suggest we wait and see how things pan out with his testing. I already know what the small signal parameters look like (liked them enough to where I bought a second driver). I have no idea as to the linearity, and I can't really measure that yet. There is a way to sort of do this with ARTA, and I do have ARTA, a high-SPL mic, and a decent laser displacement head, but since mine is only 25 mm, my laser might not be big enough to test the limits of this driver (though I doubt that very much). All that stuff (like all my speakers) remains packed away in boxes though.

Wish I had more free time to play with speakers, just not enough hours in a day after my real job and working on my house.
I said before I'll chip in whatever else is needed Mike. I have no problem sticking to what I said. Up to you...
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post #399 of 601 Old 03-21-2019, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by lilmike View Post
Not sure yet, have a couple things that I plan to experiment with. So far, I am leaning towards higher-order boxes though.

Hmmm... interesting, 6th order or a different type?



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Advertising and snake oil? Say it isn't so!! My iNuke makes every bit of the 3000 watts it claims. It says it does right on the box.

The Klippel is a great tool to assess drivers, but it is not the only way. The linearity data would be nice to see. I certainly don't expect to see 40+ mm linear, but I would be stunned if it was only 10.4 mm as stated based on the geometric formula. ARTA can be configured to measure usable excursion, I do hope to test my STWs within the limits of the gear I have some day, but don't hold your breath. At a basic level, SPL is directly proportional to excursion, so a stepped series of sweeps can also be enlightening, especially with distortion data.

lol sorry, I was trying to say the marketing is one of the reasons for the price of the driver. I know there are good, low priced products that have tons of snake oil plastered all over them. Not to say that Klippel isn't useful, its just that, for the DIY community, is a possible $1000 worth much? I would personally have a hard time asking someone else to sacrifice their driver in the name of science.

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I'm not inclined to sacrifice one of my STWs for science. I've already measured what I need to in order to be confident that I can design a decent cabinet for it and get results that are similar to what I simulated. Now I just need to get a design done and a test-mule built, that is a ways off though.



I'd love to see real data on them too. Why stop there though? There are a lot of drivers out there, but not nearly enough valid test data.
I wouldn't stop their either, I did in my post because it was at the end of my work shift
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post #400 of 601 Old 03-21-2019, 09:22 AM
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I said before I'll chip in whatever else is needed Mike. I have no problem sticking to what I said. Up to you...
Thanks, I appreciate it.
Still waiting to hear back from Warkwyn, asked them a few more questions.
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post #401 of 601 Old 03-21-2019, 09:45 AM
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Hmmm... interesting, 6th order or a different type?

Looking at both 6th and 8th order boxes, but not exactly conventional ones. LTD02's Devastator and some design concepts posted over at DIYAudio by Circlomanen have provided me some ideas to chase. Of course, I am also kicking around a tapped horn for the STWs too. All just ideas at this point though - not much free time at the moment.

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lol sorry, I was trying to say the marketing is one of the reasons for the price of the driver. I know there are good, low priced products that have tons of snake oil plastered all over them. Not to say that Klippel isn't useful, its just that, for the DIY community, is a possible $1000 worth much? I would personally have a hard time asking someone else to sacrifice their driver in the name of science.
No worries. Marketing cost is certainly part of the price, but so are the costs for the raw materials, the driver-specific tooling, and the costs for the engineering behind the driver. Peerless/Tymphany "markets" a lot less than some, and to be blunt, Peerless/Tymphany's published specification for the xmax of the STW is 10.4 mm linear based on the motor geometry. I have no idea where the 90+ mm figure came from.

I don't intend to sacrifice any driver to science. I hope to get all the information I can without destroying anything, but there are risks in strapping a driver to a Klippel (or any other high-power testing rig, even something I cobble together). High-powered test tones will burn coils before you can turn it down. Testing requires a high power unclipped signal for accurate data, if the amp clips before the speaker hits its limit, the data is inaccurate. The STW is going to require a ton of power for testing.

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I wouldn't stop their either, I did in my post because it was at the end of my work shift
Whew, I am not the only one...
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post #402 of 601 Old 03-21-2019, 03:10 PM
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Thanks, I appreciate it.
Still waiting to hear back from Warkwyn, asked them a few more questions.
No problem man. Thanks for taking the time arranging everything. We all appreciate it.
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post #403 of 601 Old 03-21-2019, 04:35 PM
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I will pony up the money and purchase a Tymphany driver and send it to Warkwyn (official Klippel of North America representative). I will publish the results with specification of Xmax as one-way linear excursion at 70% BL. I will not publish my own results drawn from my own measurements as you will see them as skewed. I will, however, send the drivers (both my HST-15 and the Tymphany STW-350F-188PR01-04) to Warkwyn for a toally unbiased third party Klippel test. Let the fun begin!
If you already tested the driver, which it appears you have and I assume you passed the info along to Ricci why not just let him post it? You could also have posted ala "Rick James" the info if you preferred to be anonymous. You seem to think people will see your measurements as skewed, if you would have passed them on through Ricci that would not have been the case.

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post #404 of 601 Old 03-21-2019, 05:02 PM
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If you already tested the driver, which it appears you have and I assume you passed the info along to Ricci why not just let him post it? You could also have posted ala "Rick James" the info if you preferred to be anonymous. You seem to think people will see your measurements as skewed, if you would have passed them on through Ricci that would not have been the case.
I've literally never discussed this driver with Nick. He has nothing to do with the report I mentioned.
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post #405 of 601 Old 03-21-2019, 05:29 PM
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I've literally never discussed this driver with Nick. He has nothing to do with the report I mentioned.

Fair enough, my apologies for dragging you in.

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post #406 of 601 Old 03-22-2019, 12:34 AM
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Looking at both 6th and 8th order boxes, but not exactly conventional ones. LTD02's Devastator and some design concepts posted over at DIYAudio by Circlomanen have provided me some ideas to chase. Of course, I am also kicking around a tapped horn for the STWs too. All just ideas at this point though - not much free time at the moment.
I saw that 8th order on DIYAudio too, and I have to say it has me intrigued. I don't think I've ever seen an 8th order build before.


Either way it seems none of us has time to mess around with this stuff right now. I'm stuck in a big sandbox for some time more and when I eventually get out of here I have to move, buy a house and then reintegrate with society once again. Time can't move fast enough!
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post #407 of 601 Old 03-22-2019, 12:19 PM
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I saw that 8th order on DIYAudio too

Sounds interesting, not even sure what 8th-order is; got a link?

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post #408 of 601 Old 03-22-2019, 01:49 PM
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^
a simple search and DAAYUUM!

https://www.google.com/search?q=8th+...DDz-kNx5HsVwM:
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post #409 of 601 Old 03-23-2019, 12:33 AM
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Sounds interesting, not even sure what 8th-order is; got a link?
Three chambers, all ported into each other. *Mind blown gif*


edit: Woops forgot to link the thread...


I guess this would be an 8th series order alignment?

https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...re-8th-bp.html
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post #410 of 601 Old 03-23-2019, 01:34 AM
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So....fart box

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post #411 of 601 Old 03-23-2019, 01:40 AM
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I don't think he intends to fart in this box.
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post #412 of 601 Old 03-23-2019, 06:25 AM
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So....fart box
Actually 84th orders can be made to cover a wide bandwidth with a smooth response, or you can tune them for a ton of gain but the bandwidth narrows and...fart cannon. I was seriously considering doing one at one time. One problem is that they are very finicky. Getting all of those vents tuned correctly basically requires trial and error and measurements to get right and it also ends up being a bigger more complicated build. It was a real PITA trying to fit the vents into a final cab design. I ended up doing the hybrid BPH style 6th instead. Some day I'd still like to give a true 8th a shot.
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post #413 of 601 Old 03-23-2019, 06:47 AM
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Actually 84th orders can be ...
So, that's like ... 80 chambers being ported ... in series???
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post #414 of 601 Old 03-23-2019, 12:33 PM
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Fart-box? To each their own. I'd call a weakly-motored, high-inductance driver in a sealed box a one-note wonder/fart-box too. Won't go into what I think of that sort of driver in a ported cabinet.

I've played with multi-chamber/higher-order bandpass cabinets of one sort or another for almost as long as I have been building speakers. Some worked better than expected, some were a total waste of time and materials. I've definitely found that the higher-order cabinets have their benefits, but they are finicky to get right. With the simulation software and measurement tools I have now, things are quite a bit easier than they used to be, but ultimately, I still have to build and measure the cabinet to see what I have created.

I generally dislike ports, because unless they are large, they tend to compress at high levels. So, simple solution, make ports larger. Problem with that is when they get larger, they have to be longer, which, aside from being really hard to deal with, can shift the pipe resonances into the sub's passband. I am more interested in this sort of topology:



All credit to Circlomanen over at DIYAudio for the drawing and this concept. Drawing taken from the thread linked by @Trimlock earlier.

To complicate things further, a guy could taper the quarter-wave resonators and potentially reduce the pipe resonances.

I'm still at the scribbling pictures with my crayons stage, I have a few simulations, but nothing that corresponds to a design sketch or anything.

Edit - fixed image. Sorry about that. Thanks @Stereodude for pointing that out.
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... I am more interested in this sort of topology:



All credit to Circlomanen over at DIYAudio for the drawing and this concept. Drawing taken from the thread linked by @Trimlock earlier.
FWIW, hotlinking images from DIYAudio doesn't work unless you're logged in there.
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post #416 of 601 Old 03-26-2019, 08:31 PM
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If you already tested the driver, which it appears you have and I assume you passed the info along to Ricci why not just let him post it? You could also have posted ala "Rick James" the info if you preferred to be anonymous. You seem to think people will see your measurements as skewed, if you would have passed them on through Ricci that would not have been the case.
I have never "passed the info along to Ricci" at all, as he/Ricci recently stated. Ricci is a great source of information but he is not the end-all-be-all of information on this planet. Klippel is a very good sourse of information (T/S, BL over stoke, Kms over stroke, Qe/Qe/Qm over stroke, etc) and should not be looked at as secondary to Ricci's T/S measurements. Ricci can not literally measure BL over stroke, where-as Klippel can. He/Ricci can extrapolate the data but Klippel is more accurate from a loudspeaker-only standpoint.
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post #417 of 601 Old 03-26-2019, 08:41 PM
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Man, you can't make this stuff up...
Nor can we make up the amount of money you will owe us once I publish the Klippel data. I will make it very public. You took it upon yourself to publically state that our measurements were/have-been false. Now you can put your money where your mouth is. Again our PayPal email address is [email protected]. After looking at it again Peerless/Tymphany claims 45 mm Xmax (one-way). We Claim 38 mm one-way. Both should be / are via 70% BL variance as defined as one-way linear exucrusion (Xmax). For every milimmeter we are wrong you owe us $100. And for every millimmeter we are wrong I will pay you and your wolf-pack $100. Both drivers are off to be Klippel tested and I will publish the data on here however it may fall.
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post #418 of 601 Old 03-26-2019, 10:12 PM
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Nor can we make up the amount of money you will owe us once I publish the Klippel data. I will make it very public. You took it upon yourself to publically state that our measurements were/have-been false. Now you can put your money where your mouth is. Again our PayPal email address is [email protected]. After looking at it again Peerless/Tymphany claims 45 mm Xmax (one-way). We Claim 38 mm one-way. Both should be / are via 70% BL variance as defined as one-way linear exucrusion (Xmax). For every milimmeter we are wrong you owe us $100. And for every millimmeter we are wrong I will pay you and your wolf-pack $100. Both drivers are off to be Klippel tested and I will publish the data on here however it may fall.
Once again, they do not claim 45mm xmax. They claim 10.4mm linear xmax. But if you actually bothered to coherently read anything, you'd know this. You unfortunately choose to just run your mouth instead of any constructive discussion.
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post #419 of 601 Old 03-26-2019, 11:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Nor can we make up the amount of money you will owe us once I publish the Klippel data. I will make it very public. You took it upon yourself to publically state that our measurements were/have-been false. Now you can put your money where your mouth is. Again our PayPal email address is [email protected]. After looking at it again Peerless/Tymphany claims 45 mm Xmax (one-way). We Claim 38 mm one-way. Both should be / are via 70% BL variance as defined as one-way linear exucrusion (Xmax). For every milimmeter we are wrong you owe us $100. And for every millimmeter we are wrong I will pay you and your wolf-pack $100. Both drivers are off to be Klippel tested and I will publish the data on here however it may fall.

Seems like a break-even proposition.
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post #420 of 601 Old 03-28-2019, 02:13 PM
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Not sure who the alleged wolf pack consists of... but #MeToo and #woofers matter.....
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Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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