New Peerless 15" STW-350F with 90mm mechanical excursion - Page 15 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #421 of 587 Old 03-28-2019, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
I have never "passed the info along to Ricci" at all, as he/Ricci recently stated. Ricci is a great source of information but he is not the end-all-be-all of information on this planet. Klippel is a very good sourse of information (T/S, BL over stoke, Kms over stroke, Qe/Qe/Qm over stroke, etc) and should not be looked at as secondary to Ricci's T/S measurements. Ricci can not literally measure BL over stroke, where-as Klippel can. He/Ricci can extrapolate the data but Klippel is more accurate from a loudspeaker-only standpoint.
You missed my point, you made it clear that you don't think people would have accepted measurements from you. Ricci is respected enough here you could have funneled them through him. People here use data bass as a easy button comparison site. Even with your agenda Im glad some data will be forthcoming.

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post #422 of 587 Old 03-30-2019, 10:05 AM
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I suppose this is off topic now, considering where this discussion has gone, but I'm starting to look into adding more power to my 2 STW's and would like some amplifier suggestions for something that's going to be a step up from my current iNuke 6000, which does an ok job for now but doesn't power them to their full potential. I'm thinking of an FP14000 clone but I only have a standard 15A plug so I'm not sure if it will work...

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post #423 of 587 Old 03-30-2019, 11:51 PM
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A 15A circuit will choke an iNuke6000 as well.
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post #424 of 587 Old 03-31-2019, 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by matt/E View Post
I suppose this is off topic now, considering where this discussion has gone, but I'm starting to look into adding more power to my 2 STW's and would like some amplifier suggestions for something that's going to be a step up from my current iNuke 6000, which does an ok job for now but doesn't power them to their full potential. I'm thinking of an FP14000 clone but I only have a standard 15A plug so I'm not sure if it will work...
As far as the 15a circuit goes right or wrong I have several amps hooked up and no issues. Also not implying its right or wrong but if I were to push the amps to max besides a massive headache from the volume probable cause damage to the amps themselves in addition to tripping the breakers. My opinion you can use a 15a but at somepoint upgrading to a 20 would be better I have a form of a clone on a 20 not once have I tripped anything. As far as amps its your money your choice but here is a good place to help with your choice



https://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...links-faq.html


A word of caution and not going to say you will have any issues but buying a clone can be iffy. Yes its a lot of power for a decent price however some not all have had issues with these amps and personally the idea of a 2 yr warranty sounds great however its phone support?? To me it makes as much sense as having a problem with your car calling the mechanic and have him tell you whats wrong without actually troubleshooting to find the exact problem. Once again just my opinion.

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post #425 of 587 Old 03-31-2019, 01:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matt/E View Post
I suppose this is off topic now, considering where this discussion has gone, but I'm starting to look into adding more power to my 2 STW's and would like some amplifier suggestions for something that's going to be a step up from my current iNuke 6000, which does an ok job for now but doesn't power them to their full potential. I'm thinking of an FP14000 clone but I only have a standard 15A plug so I'm not sure if it will work...
I went with a Speaker Power SP1-4000HT plate amp. It was a huge upgrade over my iNuke 6000DSP with my two ultimax 18s. Even with the gain set at 50% it feels more powerful than the iNuke ever was. Plus, it has auto turn on and it's dead silent. I actually built a little box for it, since it's not mounted in my sub box, and used two 120mm computer fans I had to cool it. It's completely silent cooling for extra precaution and much better than the old iNuke hair dyers.
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post #426 of 587 Old 03-31-2019, 01:33 PM
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I have 5 inukes hooked to a 15amp circuit! Its a matter of planning...lots of high sensitivity speakers and ported subs to minimize power requirements.

A 15a circuit and these drivers are a very bad combo! I dont see a good solution except a higher sensitivity driver (i.e. any other driver).
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post #427 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cichlid109 View Post
As far as the 15a circuit goes right or wrong I have several amps hooked up and no issues. Also not implying its right or wrong but if I were to push the amps to max besides a massive headache from the volume probable cause damage to the amps themselves in addition to tripping the breakers. My opinion you can use a 15a but at somepoint upgrading to a 20 would be better I have a form of a clone on a 20 not once have I tripped anything. As far as amps its your money your choice but here is a good place to help with your choice



www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/3024272-subwoofer-amplifier-links-faq.html


A word of caution and not going to say you will have any issues but buying a clone can be iffy. Yes its a lot of power for a decent price however some not all have had issues with these amps and personally the idea of a 2 yr warranty sounds great however its phone support?? To me it makes as much sense as having a problem with your car calling the mechanic and have him tell you whats wrong without actually troubleshooting to find the exact problem. Once again just my opinion.

I found someone locally(10-15 minute drive from me) that imports and sells the FP14000, etc amps and he's invited me to come by and check them out and demo, so I'll go check them out and see what I think. I rent my house so I'm limited to what's there for electrical. Thanks for the input.

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post #428 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by matt/E View Post
I found someone locally(10-15 minute drive from me) that imports and sells the FP14000, etc amps and he's invited me to come by and check them out and demo, so I'll go check them out and see what I think. I rent my house so I'm limited to what's there for electrical. Thanks for the input.
Who?
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post #429 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 06:43 PM
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Man, you can't make this stuff up...
You are correct. You can't make up you accusing me of posting erroneous data and Tymphany posting infallible data. Proof is in the pudding. Tymphany claims 45 mm one-way Xmax. You think their information is accurate. You and notnyt are in the same boat. As per the beginning of me posting in this thread I stand by my statement of for every millimeter we are off in Xmax I owe you guys $100. Likewise for every millimeter that Tymphany is off you guys owe me $100. Looks like you guys owe me $2,589.00. My Paypal is [email protected].

HST-15 mkIII Klippel Large Signal Graphs:





Tymphany STW-350F Klippel Large Signal Graphs:





Full reports:

HST-15 mkIII Klippel: https://stereointegrity.com/wp-conte...parameters.pdf

Tymphany STW-350F Klippel: https://stereointegrity.com/wp-conte...parameters.pdf

And a few notes from Jason Cochrane at Warkwyn (Klippel North America) on our HST-15 mkIII: "The voice coil in your driver looks like it’s 6mm off from center. It looks like has to move inwards towards the backplate. See “BL symmetry range”, and also the “nonlinear parameters “. Your 70% BL excursion limit was 32.89mm. If you were to add the 6mm offset from the voice coil, you would be at 38.89mm.( The test stops turning up the gain once one side of the BL drops to the target.)"

Jason Cochrane's notes about the Tymphany: "The tymphany driver goes nowhere near there quoted 45.5mm one way excursion…maybe it does but with a huge drop in BL. The 70% limits on it was 18mm ( it’s coil was 1.48mm off center, also should be moved inwards, would bring xmax to almost 20mm ). The suspension also doesn’t look ( or measure ) like the driver is supposed to move 45mm."
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post #430 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post

HST-15 mkIII
Nick, thanks for the reports. The HST15 MkIII is not on your website. When will it be available?
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post #431 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
You are correct. You can't make up you accusing me of posting erroneous data and Tymphany posting infallible data. Proof is in the pudding. Tymphany claims 45 mm one-way Xmax. You think their information is accurate. You and notnyt are in the same boat.
What is your malfunction?

Never once did I make any claims about your drivers or even mention them
. Why do you keep mentioning me? I was the one who called out all the marketing being done by PE and others with the absurd claims, yet you think I'm for them now?

That said, Tymphany claims 10.4mm linear xmax on all their publications. I've pointed you to multiple sources showing this. Are you going to pay now since they met this spec?

It's nice you shared the Klippel data, but read the damned thread. I'm tired of repeating myself. Now you're the one spreading misinformation here.


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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Jason Cochrane's notes about the Tymphany: "The tymphany driver goes nowhere near there quoted 45.5mm one way excursion…maybe it does but with a huge drop in BL. The 70% limits on it was 18mm ( it’s coil was 1.48mm off center, also should be moved inwards, would bring xmax to almost 20mm ). The suspension also doesn’t look ( or measure ) like the driver is supposed to move 45mm."
I said this from the start. Hell, you even quoted one of my posts where I mentioned that.
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post #432 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 07:31 PM
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@gbullimore

cat is out of the bag now. No wonder you didn't want to share the data.

Thanks Nick

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post #433 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 07:49 PM
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Displacement limit for the Peerless STW 350 due to compliance variation.... 5.95mm.



[email protected] = 75% 5.95 mm. Page 6 of 7:


https://stereointegrity.com/wp-conte...parameters.pdf


I'd say the suspension needs a major overhaul: In their cutaway, the dual spiders are not mirrored as they should be, being assembled in the same direction on the former.



Continuing the Bl curve on the out stroke of the Peerless, 50% motor strength would occur at approximately 25 mm..... more than a 'major' loss of motor strength, well past recommended limits.
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Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #434 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 08:05 PM
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Nick, are you disregarding the 17.35 mm displacement limit due to inductance variation on your HST?

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #435 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 08:25 PM
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post #436 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 08:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
hi Guys, a lot of questions! i'll try to answer as many as possible!

first off, yes i am involved with Tymphany, the STW is actually my concept and i was steering the design.

yes, we have had the driver on klippel, probably a few hundred time over the development, we're not against publishing the data, but we have had some issues with the klippel system measuring at these power and excursion levels. we're working through those with Klippel themselves and aim to publish data once the measurement issues are resolved.
I'd be highly skeptical of anyone developing transducers who don't have frequent access to a klippel test rig.
also bear in mind it's a hugely flexible piece of test equipment, you can use it to give 2 seemingly very different sets of results depending on how you set it up,
i can confirm that we've had 91.x mm P-P repeatedly from the STW using the Klippel system.

Xmax, the most abused spec after power!
there are many ways to describe Xmax, some make sense, some do not, but they vary a lot!
none of them really tell you how far the driver can move in use, - there are too many variables.
the most honest way is to give Gap length, coil length, VC overhang, or from 2 of these you can calc the other,
this however doesn't give a headline figure,
remember that for a subwoofer, high Xmax is not always relevant, as the driver will see significant excursion in average use.
more important is the width of the BL curve at moderate excursion. the shape of BL curve, and how this balances with the compliance/inductance non-linearity,
we compared the current design to one with the same VC length and Xmax (VC overhang) of 25, and the 25mm xmax driver performed worse, in any real world conditions .

sensitivity for subwoofers - the most mis-understood parameter!
published sensitivty can be defined a variety of ways, some honest and some very much not!
we have found in real world testing that other manufacturers drivers show up to 3dB higher on the spec sheet than in real life,
we publish both 1w/1m and also 2.83v/1m which is what most companies use,
2.83v is only accurate for an 8 ohm driver... a real 8ohm, not a 5 ohm DCR woofer described as 8ohm!
but anyway..
for subwoofers all these measurements are pointless....
the spec sensitivty quoted everywhere is a mid-band sensitivity figure,
and nobodyy uses a subwoofer at these frequencies,

even a sensitivity at 50hz or 100hz would be fairly pointless on it's own, as they are taken in an 1/2 space environment, (no box)
to give an example, take any pro PA woofer, from any manufacturer, even a TYMPHANY one like NCP1540, this has very high published sensitivity which is fine as it's designed to be used at low and mid frequencies,
now put it in a small box, and measure the sensitivity at 40Hz, as you need for subwoofer use... somewhere along the way a boat-load of sensitivty got lost !

you can only compare sensitivity of subwoofers in-box and at the frequencies that you'll be using,

the STW has great sensitivity in a small box at true subwoofer frequencies, where it will be used.


Simulations -
nearly all of the simulation tools on the market either just use the TS parameters and assume these apply at all excursions, or they apply some rule of thumb assumptions,
this is ok for most regular mid-woofers, but falls over with the unusual designs like very small or very large voice coils, many subwoofers etc etc.
if you really want to konw how far the driver moves in-box, build a box and try it!
the simulations are good to get an aproximate box size/tuning, but then you need to prototype, this applies to any drivers made anywhere,
also measure your own TS parameters, if you have a consistent reliable way to do so,
I see a lot of lower cost drivers with totally bogus specs! or where the batch to batch variation is so bad that the spec sheet parameters are pointless.
very few manufacturers give tolerance on their specs, this applies to a lot of high end companies too!

surround height, i don't have the measurements to hand, but go measure a driver, the surround is not tight, even at +/-45mm.

my earlier comments about panel size:
the panels of an 8 cu ft enclosure has 29x the area (Sd) compared to the driver,
this means that even a tiny displacement in the panels can produce SPL that is significant and undesired,
reducing the cabinet to 2 cu ft reduces that ratio to 11, so basically a factor of 3 reduction in panel area, that combined with the inherent stiffness improvement in the smaller cabinet, makes for a quite audible difference,



Perhaps it's time to go back to the FEA and the drawing board. Dead reckoning has been backed up with data that shows that this driver won't even be linear at 10.4 mm one way, compliance being the first limiting factor at 5.95 mm one way.



45.5 mm one way claim that Parts Express and Sound Imports have on their webpages appears to be largely a pipe dream.

Ask your doctor if DIY is right for you. Side effects of DIY may include anxiety, elevated blood pressure, lightheadedness, rapid heartbeat, skeletal muscle flaccidity, euphoria, psychological dependence, insomnia, confusion, blurred vision, impulsivity, uncontrolled or repeated movements.
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post #437 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
*bunch of data*
Thank you. Sent you the $20 I volunteered to contribute towards getting one of these tested. I saw what I was curious to see! Good form. Thank you!

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post #438 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 10:17 PM
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Thanks Nick! I'll quit pestering Warkwyn and Redrock.
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post #439 of 587 Old 04-02-2019, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by gbullimore View Post
Good news for those with a genuine interest in this driver.
We have managed to source a driver [sold one to Stereo Integrity] for testing without affecting our open orders.

Should be on the klippel rig in the next few days.
Fixed your post for you.
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post #440 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 06:13 AM
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Thank u to Nick, the only one to get a real test done. PM me if I can contribute the $20 I had offered to michael earlier in the thread.
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post #441 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 06:24 AM
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
Perhaps it's time to go back to the FEA and the drawing board. Dead reckoning has been backed up with data that shows that this driver won't even be linear at 10.4 mm one way, compliance being the first limiting factor at 5.95 mm one way.



45.5 mm one way claim that Parts Express and Sound Imports have on their webpages appears to be largely a pipe dream.
Michael as I had said long ago he is not who he says he is. I took some sxxx for calling him out but it was obvious.

A year of bs and then once we all discussed testing he magically found one to test but hasnt been back since...lol im sure in a month or so a "oh just been too busy" post will come along with some weird desire to reengage on any topic except the driver specs. Nick runs a small and well respected company. He took sxxx and called people out and then showed what a real designer does -- get data.

B supposedly runs a brand new design lab but just cant manage to get his Klippel thingee working? 😁

The desperation he showed by flailing with a "found a driver!" right after we decided to pay for testing was impressive. Disappearing right after is the icing on the cake.
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post #442 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 08:10 AM
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Guys we can't be too critical of gbullimore or he will cut the DIY community off from their products!

Whoops
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post #443 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Jason Cochrane's notes about the Tymphany: "The tymphany driver goes nowhere near there quoted 45.5mm one way excursion…maybe it does but with a huge drop in BL. The 70% limits on it was 18mm ( it’s coil was 1.48mm off center, also should be moved inwards, would bring xmax to almost 20mm ). The suspension also doesn’t look ( or measure ) like the driver is supposed to move 45mm."
Thank you for testing and sharing, much appreciated!

And good luck with the finishing touches on the HST-15 MkIII.

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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
Michael as I had said long ago he is not who he says he is. I took some sxxx for calling him out but it was obvious.
I just sent an email to the real George Bullimore, asking him to please reply in this thread.

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post #445 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Tymphany claims 45 mm one-way Xmax.

You keep repeating this after having been corrected several times.

I don't have a horse in this race, but at this point I have to take anything you say with a big grain of salt.

Noah
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post #446 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
Tymphany claims 45 mm one-way Xmax.

You keep repeating this after having been corrected several times.

I don't have a horse in this race, but at this point I have to take anything you say with a big grain of salt.
The thing is, there are multiple vendors using these same claims, so where are they getting their data from? Seems obvious that the manufacturer is providing them with key terms to use in their marketing.
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post #447 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 12:57 PM
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Thanks for providing the information Nick.


15Hz resonance on your driver...Sheesh. Get on down there.
Even with an inductive indicated 18mm that's good. I can list the drivers that I've ever seen pass all of the criteria at 18mm or more on one hand. I've seen a lot of reports. Most of the time they are on the verge for failing at least 2 of the thresholds. Centering that coil should improve it too.


That suspension curve on the STW report is ugly. Not much to say about it. Fails the Kms threshold at 6mm. Almost doesn't seem possible to be that bad unless something was defective or just straight up badly designed. Makes me interested to see how this driver I have does with the outdoor testing.
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post #448 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post

That suspension curve on the STW report is ugly. Not much to say about it. Fails the Kms threshold at 6mm. Almost doesn't seem possible to be that bad unless something was defective or just straight up badly designed. Makes me interested to see how this driver I have does with the outdoor testing.
They will claim the STW was defective and not indicative of the real product.
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post #449 of 587 Old 04-03-2019, 08:55 PM
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One of the worst things about the STW is the huge fs shift with excursion. This is due to the non linearity of the suspension. The HST is quite linear in that regard, shifting by about 1hz at 35mm excursion. The response of this driver is going to change a good bit as power is applied.

The STW changes from 16hz fs to 26hz fs at 18mm. That's massive. Also, the inward stroke is quite off balance from the outward.


Last edited by notnyt; 04-03-2019 at 09:01 PM.
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post #450 of 587 Old 04-04-2019, 12:24 AM
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I wonder if that's a design fail they had to accept in order to use a 7.4" voice coil.
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